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  #1  
Unread 04-28-2011, 01:09 AM
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An epiphany about horary

Please forgive my ramblings, but I think I've just come to a realization that I'm done with horary! It's not that I don't believe in it because I DO, but I've come to realize that I use it too much! Anytime a new situation arises (usually about romance) I ask a horary about a potential relationship with the person.

There is a new person in my life right now whom I have VERY good vibes about and I thought surely.... SURELY.... this time something postitive could happen because it feels so positive. Well the Moon was void and Saturn was in the 1st. Hope FAIL.

Then I came to the realization that I don't think horary was ever meant to be used in this manner. Back in the old days, people didn't have the money to go skulking off to an astrologer every time they developed a new crush. If they shelled out hard earned money it was going to be about life changing questions. That's where I think modern horary and the ability ask questions instantly over the internet is going wrong.

In my own situation, maybe something will happen or maybe it won't, but I would rather have a few more weeks of POSITIVE hope than have it be squashed by a horary prematurely. Does that make sense? Humans aren't meant to live without hope. We aren't meant to always know an outcome.

So.... I'm saying I think I'm done using it for now, and oddly, I feel a big weight lift off my shoulders. Doesn't mean I won't visit the board or stop learning because it is a fascinating field, but for myself- I think a little mystery in my life will be a good thing. <3

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Unread 04-28-2011, 02:08 AM
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misskitty, I have never used horary astrology, and I barely understand it. As long as I've been here I've seen dozens, possibly hundreds of people wander onto the forum and ask this group how their love life with somebody will work out, sometimes before they've even talked to the person. It's disturbing to see people put completely open ended (IMO) situations in the hands of something that seems so fatalistic. I have a preconceived notion that a relationship should have some kind of emotional meaning to both parties before a meaningful question can or should be formed about it's fate. Especially is the question involves getting married or having children (popular subjects) or anything else ultimately dependent upon free will and choice.

Now, I stress the point that I know nothing of what horary astrology is supposedly capable of, but I get the feeling that people are going way over it's boundaries and are asking unreasonable questions without making any effort in any direction in the real world with the real person. If it sounds like I'm bashing horary altogether I assure you I'm not, and I think it's okay to be crazy about horary as long as you're asking the right questions, but the things I've seen floating around the horary board seem like an attempted abuse of the skill. It seems to me that the people who continually ask questions about non-relationships are confusing their sub-conscious with hopes and expectations and fuzzy questions and are getting disjointed answers because of it. I respect people who try hard to learn horary astrology and apply it practically in their lives, but as for those who just ask open ended questions, they may end up going through their lives getting misleading impressions and missing opportunities. The popular mind-set toward horary astrology just looks to me like a recipe for disaster.

I'm not sure if this post is entirely in line with what you have presented, so I hope you don't mind me using your very important thread as a venue to rant my opinionated impressions.

Thank you for posting this epiphany of yours. I think it's a long time coming for some people, and I hope others will choose to follow your lead.
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Unread 04-28-2011, 02:24 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Your post was totally relevant, thanks for posting your thoughts!
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Unread 04-28-2011, 03:14 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

ANY form of divination is capable of being abused! That's horary or Tarot or I Ching-anything which looks into the Macrocosm for help in finding guidance or answers, can be abused. To me, the value in horary delineation is NOT in finding out what MUST be, but rather to identify what MIGHT be (regarding a question), and then-if positive-going with that, but if negative-then seeing WHY the negative is there, WHAT the negative is, so as to DO SOMETHING to modify or alter it. Again, horary (like other forms of divination) can be regarded as providing ONE perspective to the querent, which the querent can then compare and contrast to other perspectives (including that of COMMON SENSE)
...but I completely agree with both the previous posters: neither horary NOR ANY OTHER TYPE OF DIVINATION, should EVER come to be relied upon as a "be all-end all" ultimate "source of TRUTH", or come to rule one's decision-making life: that's abuse, and that is not what horary-or any other form of astrology-was intended to be...

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-28-2011 at 03:17 AM.
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Unread 04-29-2011, 12:47 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

I completely agree and I think that's why I have to step away from using it. Rather than relying on my own intuition and inner guidance, I jump to asking the Universe for it too quickly. That's like someone giving you the answer to a math question before you even attempt it yourself. I know horary has a lot of value for when you deperately need guidance, I'm just beginning to doubt if it should be used for everyday matters like crushes and such.

For example, my marriage lasted 12 years and then I ended up getting hurt very badly at the end. Had I done a horary about it before I married him maybe I would have seen that and thought twice, BUT I wouldn't have had 12 years of experience with this person who wound up being like a spiritual teacher for me. So what I'm saying is that I don't think it's always a good idea to know what is ahead because we might miss some of the journey along the way due to over-caution or lack of hope. That lack of even negative experience could be so detrimental as to not allow the good experiences in later on. That's a long winded way of saying that I agree with you that horary (or any other divination) shouldn't rule our decision making, and I think that is where I was starting to go wrong. It's where a lot of people are going wrong with it, I believe. The solution is to use it sparingly and only when absolutely necessary or needed.

I doubt I'm making any sense. lol

Last edited by misskitty; 04-29-2011 at 12:55 AM.
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Unread 04-29-2011, 12:49 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

You could probably drive yourself crazy creating a horary for every situation in life. I think some people actually do that.
I stopped doing my own charts for a few months now. I mean what did we all do before we knew about horary? We let the situation develop and the chips fall where they may. I think horary is a good tool if you're in a bad situation and need some insight as to what's going on...but again I don't think people should ask questions because they're impatient to know an outcome or merely curious.
Aside from that it's a lot easier to read other people's charts than your own.
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Unread 04-29-2011, 12:57 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

YES, that's what I was trying to say Serendipity! Well put.
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Unread 04-29-2011, 03:53 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

As you probably know, I use Tarot (in a special format, but Tarot divination still the same) I have NEVER ONCE in 40 years use of the Tarot been incorrect in the prediction of the NATURE of what finally occured in the matter of the divination question (I am not bragging, sorry if it sounds like it): now, how often do I consult the Tarot? Rarely! Only for something very important. That's pretty much my attitude, as far as consulting for myself is concerned (Tarot or horary-or I Ching for that matter); for others I am more liberal-especially when using horary for astro-therapeutic purposes; but for myself, only for something that is a big deal...
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Unread 04-29-2011, 07:46 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
Please forgive my ramblings, but I think I've just come to a realization that I'm done with horary! It's not that I don't believe in it because I DO, but I've come to realize that I use it too much! Anytime a new situation arises (usually about romance) I ask a horary about a potential relationship with the person.

There is a new person in my life right now whom I have VERY good vibes about and I thought surely.... SURELY.... this time something postitive could happen because it feels so positive. Well the Moon was void and Saturn was in the 1st. Hope FAIL.

Then I came to the realization that I don't think horary was ever meant to be used in this manner. Back in the old days, people didn't have the money to go skulking off to an astrologer every time they developed a new crush. If they shelled out hard earned money it was going to be about life changing questions. That's where I think modern horary and the ability ask questions instantly over the internet is going wrong.

In my own situation, maybe something will happen or maybe it won't, but I would rather have a few more weeks of POSITIVE hope than have it be squashed by a horary prematurely. Does that make sense? Humans aren't meant to live without hope. We aren't meant to always know an outcome.

So.... I'm saying I think I'm done using it for now, and oddly, I feel a big weight lift off my shoulders. Doesn't mean I won't visit the board or stop learning because it is a fascinating field, but for myself- I think a little mystery in my life will be a good thing. <3
Good for you. I appreciate your honesty and candor in the matter.

I don't want to trivialize relationships, because they are important, since that is how we learn and grow and we do need or desire companionship, but in the grand scheme of things, relationships are quite trivial for the most part.

From my point of view, astrologically, people do it backwards. If you are interested in marriage, and it appears you are genuinely interested as are many others, then what you should do is delineate your chart using traditional methods: find out who and what you are, what type of partner will fulfill your needs, and identify the Significator of Marriage to see if you have the potential for marriage(s) and how many you might have (which may or may not be Venus in your chart but Venus would participate), the Lots of Marriage (by both Hermes and Valens -- and not to get side-tracked but there's a thread about Mars that has a great test chart because the Lot of Marriage by Valens is conjunct Jupiter and the Lot of Marriage by Hermes is conjunct Venus which happens to be both Peregrine and conjunct the Fixed Star Spica -- so it would be interesting to see whose Lot -- Hermes or Valens -- is best), plus there's even a Lot of Marriage Time, and then use predictive techniques, like Profections, Solar Returns and Primary Directions in Zodio and in Mundo to determine when you'll get married.

And the beauty of that is everything you learn is applicable to Horary (and Elections and Mundane), so it would only make you a better Horary astrologer.

But then if you're going to do all that, why do Horary? Because Horary can fill in the missing gaps and provide incredible detail about the marriage that you otherwise wouldn't get from a Solar Return or Profection chart.

Horary will never conflict with your Natal Chart. Horary will never say that you'll die, or marry, or have children, be injured or become ill, or rise to glory and fame, unless your Natal Chart supports it (natally and through Profections, Solar Returns and Primary Directions).

Unfortunately this forum isn't really conducive to learning traditional methods and information is difficult to come by (but much easier than it was a few years ago), but your time would be better spend doing that and continuing to learn Horary while enjoying the relationships you chance to have in the mean time.

And when you eventually get into a stable relationship and your Profections and Solar Returns are showing marriage, then yes, by all means, pop the Horary Question.
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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 04-29-2011, 11:32 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Thank you Bob. Yes, I am interested in marriage eventually, and I suppose I am anxious about it because there are indicators in my progressed chart and transits that are pointing to a possible significant relationship that may be upcoming in my life. The most glaring is Progressed Sun conjunct Natal Venus in Taurus. What I really need to do is be patient and let those elements play out if that is indeed what is going to happen, but that is so hard to get through my Aries skull! However, I feel in my bones that patience what is required of me at this time. Despite the negative chart mentioned above, I like the guy that has possibly entered my life (who happens to be a Taurus- same sign my activity is occuring in!) so, well, who knows. I just don't want my fleeting hopes crushed anymore by horary charts, especially when it is over questions that are not crucial and not really what I want to know anyway-- you are right, what I REALLY want to know is when I will marry again (I'm divorced). So maybe ALL of my horaries in the past have been inconsequential.

Can you recommend a good source to start learning how to delineate a natal using traditional techniques? It is daunting to look at the list of material out there, so I would rather start with something that comes recommended. You too, dr. farr, any recommendations would be very helpful.

Thanks for listening! Horary is a fascinating field and I feel more and more that it should be respected and not used as a "magic 8 ball" (again- no reference to your non-traditional technique dr. farr, I'm talking about the toy magic 8 ball here. )
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Unread 04-30-2011, 11:54 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

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Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
I am anxious about it because there are indicators in my progressed chart and transits that are pointing to a possible significant relationship that may be upcoming in my life.
Well, I've had a lot of relationships, most were insignificant, but a few were very significant, to the point I actually miss them, but they don't necessarily lead to marriage (and I don't interpret Secondary Progressions in that manner).

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
Can you recommend a good source to start learning how to delineate a natal using traditional techniques?
I'd start with Lily's Christian Astrology, because it is readily available, and it's free and it's in Adobe format and searchable (you can search a word to find a topic you want to review) and it's the most readable, even though it is in an archaic English vernacular.

Once you figure out Lily's conventions, it's pretty easy. It's confusing at first because he constantly mentions planets conjoined or conjunct. To Lily, a conjunction is any aspect (sextile, trine, square or opposition) except an actual conjunction as we know it. When he says "joined corporeally" or "joined corporeally by body" he's talking about an actual conjunction as we know it (meaning that the two Planets are in the same Sign and degree). And then "casting disposition" means any applying aspect (as we know them including conjunctions as we know them).

The principles are the same for all manner of charts. The Sun is masculine and represents the male figure: your son(s), your brother(s), your father, your husband, your current beau, male friends, male co-workers, male supervisors, any authority figure (including your employer), government employees, plus your reputation and standing in your community or amongst your peers in your career field, and your personal credit, plus life and strength.

The Moon is feminine and represents women in general, your sister(s), mother, wife, girlfriend, girl friends, all liquids (including oil), people who work with water, like the guy who trucks water out to your cistern (if you live in one of those parts of the country), sewage works, water workers, people who dispense liquid beverages, merchant marines, sailors, fishermen, etc, plus change and instability.

In Natal Charts, men look at the Moon, women look at Sun. The Sun Oriental from the Horizon, meaning in the 4th, 5th, 6th or 10th, 11th and 12th Houses indicates an early marriage, or marriage to a younger man. The Sun Occidental, in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th or 9th means a later marriage or marriage to someone older.

We don't look at the Moon in relation to the Horizon, rather we look at the Moon in relation to the Sun. A Conjunctional Moon, being in the 1st or 2nd Quarters is Oriental and means an early marriage or marriage to a younger woman. A Preventional Moon, in it's 3rd or 4th Quarter is Occidental, indicating marriage later in life or to an older woman.

My Moon is in the 3rd Quarter about to square Sun. I married late, and then later (and will marry later still).

Moon in a Bicorporeal or Prolific Sign or in applying aspect to two or more Planets indicates more than one marriage. My Moon is in Pisces (Bicorporeal AND Prolific) and is applying 1 to Sun and 3 to Jupiter and I have had two marriages.

The Moon not in a Bicorporeal or Prolific Sign and not in applying aspects with other Planets indicates one marriage.

For women, Sun in a Bicorporeal or Prolific Sign or in applying aspect to one or more Oriental Planets indicates more than one marriage.

If that is not the case, then most likely the Native will marry only once.

Men (ignoring the Sun) look at the Moon's applying aspects. That describes their wives. Women look at any Planet in aspect with Sun to describe their husbands.

Both men and women then look to Planets in aspect to Venus (applying). I'm very fortunate in that Moon applies only to Jupiter (Angular, Direct and in Pisces) and Venus (in Cancer) applies only to Moon and Jupiter. I really can't say anything bad about my wives. They were great cooks, good house-keepers, good with children, very economical, an employer's dream, and otherwise good people.

Men don't want to see Moon applying to Saturn, or Venus to Mars.

Women don't want to see Sun with Mars or Venus, or Venus with Saturn or Mars. Mercury, well Mercury is a Common Planet so it depends on which Mercury shows up in the chart.

Hermes' Time of Marriage Lot is ASC + Moon - Sun which is the same as the Lot of Fortune in a Day Chart, so if you have a Day Chart, you can direct the Lot of Fortune for marriage. If you have a Night Chart, you can direct the Lot of Spirit (which is the same).

Often in a Solar Return, the 7th House coming to the Ascendant indicates a potential for marriage. Contrary to modern astrology we put the Solar Return inside and the Natal Chart outside. For one thing, there's absolutely no mistake about which House comes to the Ascendant in the Natal Chart. You have to be careful, because what appears to be the SR Ascendant coming to the Ascendant of the Natal Chart might actually be the 6th House.

To find the Marriage Ruler (or Lord of Marriage or Significator of Marriage or Almuten of Marriage whatever you want to call it) we calculate the Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity in those Chart Points related to marriage. For example, I'd use the 7th House Cusp (20 Tau), 7th House Ruler (Venus at 4 Can), Moon for Men/Sun for Women (Moon at 7 Pis), Lot of Marriage (I use Hermes' 13 Ari) and Ruler Lot of Marriage 28 Ari, plus Venus (for both Men & Women) 4 Can (again). Then you set up a crude table:

...............Sign.......Exaltation.......Sect Triplicity.......Term
20 Tau.. Venus... Moon............. Venus................ Jupiter
04 Can.. Moon.... Jupiter........... Mars.................. Mars
07 Pis....Jupiter... Venus............ Mars.................. Venus
13 Ari.... Mars...... Sun............... Sun.................... Venus
28 Ari.... Mars...... Sun............... Sun.................... Saturn
04 Can.. Moon..... Jupiter.......... Mars................... Mars

Now, is there any one Planet that has Dignity in all those points? No, but if there was, that would be the Marriage Ruler. If Mars had Dignity in the 7th House Cusp, he would fit the bill. If Jupiter had Dignity in Mars and the Lot of Marriage, he would be the Marriage Ruler.

We add up the points, and Mars being Sign Ruler twice, Triplicity Ruler 3 times and Term Ruler twice wins. Mars is the Significator of Marriage.

So, Mars is the Lord of Marriage (or Marriage Ruler). If one Planet did not have Dignity in all of those Chart Points, then I would add up the Planets to which had the most Dignity.

I'd also point out that Mars is in Sign and Joys in the 6th House, but unfortunately for me, the 6th House is injunct the 1st and 7th House (which says a lot).

Okay, I was married on October 9, 1986 at Vejle, Denmark. Beautiful town (and people). May 26, 1962 is 24 years, 4 months and 13 days.

I use Ptolemy's arcs and if you can figure out his nonsense, then I tip my hat to you. Fortunately, Placidus did, so tip your hat to him and using Placidus Semi-Arc and the latitudes of the Significator and Promissor, we find Mars the Marriage Ruler comes to the sextile of Sun by direct Primary Direction in Zodiac, when?

October 4, 1986 at age 24.36 years. When we find the Arc of Direction, we convert:

24.36 degrees is 24 years. The 0.36 we multiply by 12 [months] giving us 4.32 or 4 months -- June, July, August, taking us to September 26.

The 0.32 we multiply by 30.5 [days] and get 9.76 days, so September 26 plus 9 days is actually October 5th.

Anyone want to quibble over 4 days?

It's a lot work, but the results are satisfying, and it is about the results, right?

By the way, there are no transits to Natal or Progressed, and the Solar Return has the 11th House Cusp on the Ascendant (that would be a difficult chart to read unless you were also looking at Profections which show the Profected 1st House).

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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."

Last edited by wintersprite1; 07-11-2013 at 04:52 AM. Reason: Provoking
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Unread 04-30-2011, 02:45 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Bob, thank you so much. I am on my way out the door for work, but I am going to absorb all of this when I get home.
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Unread 04-30-2011, 04:07 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Wow Bob, interesting. So women look at Sun and Venus and men look at Moon and Venus to describe the husband/wife? And that's only applying aspects correct? And this is traditional so we dont look at the outer planets.
Still trying to absorb the last half of your post.

Not sure what we'd all do without you. You explain everything so well and in great detail.
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Unread 04-30-2011, 06:46 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

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So women look at Sun and Venus and men look at Moon and Venus to describe the husband/wife?
Yes. In a woman's chart, look at aspects the Sun makes to Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (if any) and then Mercury and Venus to the Sun. After that, look at the aspects Venus makes (the only possible aspect with Mercury is a conjunction), and then blend those together.

Sun applying to Saturn he'll be steadfast, constant, good provider type, but if Venus also aspects Saturn, he'll also be one of those "Yes, dear..." "Whatever you say, honey..." kind of guys.

In a man's chart look at the Moon's applying aspects, then look at the aspects Venus makes, and blend those together.

The aspects themselves really aren't all that important, but the condition of the Planet and any kind of Reception is. As a woman you don't want Sun or Venus applying to Mars, but if that's the case, then you want so to see some kind of Reception, even if it is weak, and preferably, well, I don't want to say Mutual Reception because that might confuse people, but let's say a Mutual Reception between lesser dignities, like Mars in the Triplicity of the Sun, and Sun in the Term of Mars or something like that, and with Mars, it would be helpful if Sun was in sextile or trine rather than in square or opposition.

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And that's only applying aspects correct?
Correct. I mean if we looked at separating aspects then the divorce rate would be 99%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
And this is traditional so we dont look at the outer planets.
No, we don't look at the outer Planets. My Moon is partile opposition to Pluto and 3 to a tine with Neptune. There was nothing Neptunian or Plutonian about my wives. Certain have the Outer Planets all in the same Signs, so that would be kind of silly; everyone would have like sort of like Stepford Wives (& Husbands)
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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 04-30-2011, 07:22 PM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Yeah, I'm not sure this bodes very well for either me or my husband haha
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Unread 04-30-2011, 08:53 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

I don't think mine is all positive either Serendipity! Okay... this is all very new to me and is going to take me some time to absorb, but using these rules I can't see my first marriage in my chart. I got married young (at age 20). We were married for 12 years. My Sun is Occidental, which points more towards a late marriage or to someone older (he was same age as me). My Moon is in the 3rd Quarter (I think) and Occidental, saying the same thing.

I have one applying aspect to my Aries Sun, as Moon is Aquarius is applying a sextile from an Occidental house (7). This would indicate one marriage, correct? But I did not marry late nor was he older? My Venus has one applying aspect which is squaring Mars in Aquarius, also Occidental. Is this my divorce? My Venus is Oriental (10th house).

Obviously I still have a lot of work to do, and I still need to figure out my marriage ruler. Maybe my above questions will be cleared up once I calculate that. Both my Sun and Venus have dignity but I need to add it up as you described and check Jupiter, Mars, etc. I have to go pick up a copy of Lily so I can mark it up with notes.

Thank you immensely. Whole new world, this traditional astrology...
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Unread 04-30-2011, 11:31 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Okay, I think I got it..... my Lord of Marriage is Venus in Taurus in the 10th house since it has the most dignity in my chart (6 points). Aside from the date of marriage, what else does the LOM tell you? Is it the deciding factor in the number of marriages as well? I believe my Venus is afflicted even if it does have the most power in my chart because it only has hard aspects to it. My Venus is Oriental and is making two applying aspects in my chart. The first is the square with Mars (in Aquarius in the 8th house) and the second is a square with the Moon (in Aquarius in my 7th house). Venus is applying a conjunction with Hermes Lot of Marriage (not sure if that means anything).

Am I on the right track here?

Last edited by misskitty; 04-30-2011 at 11:36 PM.
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Unread 05-01-2011, 03:04 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Other, earlier (historically) astrological principles for evaluating marriage are extensively outlined in Vettius Valens (his "Anthology", which is not easy to obtain) and also in Dorotheus of Sidon's "Carmen Astrologicum" (58 AD), which IS an easily obtainable book both from Amazon and also from astro-america.com
However, Mr Zemco's detailed elaboration of the later traditionalist methodology provides a great deal of valuable material to work with.
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Unread 05-01-2011, 03:11 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

I've had those epiphany's as well. Usually due to the clammering of "does he loves me?" requests.

I value Horary as a divination tool, personally. Not as a tool to keep seeking answers we aren't comfortable with.

Most we can figure out on our own. When we can't, Horary is a good starting point.

Very Neptunian it is. For good and bad.

I think when new-to-astrology, it is important to choose your ammo wisely on any horary board. I made the clammering mistakes early on, and they never gave me the answers I wanted.

When I came to the realization that horary is a divination, not a placebo, I began to study it more, intuit more and yield more accurate and sound results.

My take -
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Unread 05-01-2011, 03:23 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
I've had those epiphany's as well. Usually due to the clammering of "does he loves me?" requests.

I value Horary as a divination tool, personally. Not as a tool to keep seeking answers we aren't comfortable with.

Most we can figure out on our own. When we can't, Horary is a good starting point.

Very Neptunian it is. For good and bad.

I think when new-to-astrology, it is important to choose your ammo wisely on any horary board. I made the clammering mistakes early on, and they never gave me the answers I wanted.

When I came to the realization that horary is a divination, not a placebo, I began to study it more, intuit more and yield more accurate and sound results.

My take -

Makes a lot of sense, to those of us with experience in these realms!
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Unread 05-01-2011, 03:27 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Moderators!

The marriage discussion (and Mr Zemco's elaboration of delineation in marriage matters from the natal) postings on this thread I belive are very valuable and they should be transformed into thread of its own-probably either in the Natal or Predictive Astrology forum (ideally as a "sticky", because of Mr Zemco's information)
What do you think?
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Unread 05-01-2011, 02:56 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

I agree! His post would be a great sticky. Thanks for your book suggestion!
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  #23  
Unread 05-01-2011, 05:49 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
I don't think mine is all positive either Serendipity! Okay... this is all very new to me and is going to take me some time to absorb, but using these rules I can't see my first marriage in my chart. I got married young (at age 20). We were married for 12 years. My Sun is Occidental, which points more towards a late marriage or to someone older (he was same age as me).
That was the basic rundown.

Quote:
Which if the Sun were from the beginning of Aries up to the middle of Taurus, or from the middle of Leo up to the end of Virgo, or from the middle of Scorpio up to the middle of Aquarius, and the significator of marriage were oriental, the aforesaid will come to be in her youth, or with a young man.
In Traditional, you make judgments based on testimonies, and I know you've had to have seen dr. farr do this in Horary where this is a positive testimony, this is a negative testimony, and then he looks at the total of testimonies and makes the judgment based on the number of positive or negative testimonies.

So, you have one testimony, the Sun Occidental in the Chart, showing a late marriage or marriage to an older man, but you also have one testimony, the Sun in Aries and your marriage significator Venus in an Oriental quadrant, showing an early marriage or a marriage to a young man (or a man who has not past his prime).

You have a third testimony, Venus, the general significator of marriage Angular (in the 10th House), indicating an early marriage or marriage to a young man (I have Venus Occidental, but Mars the Marriage Ruler is in an Oriental quadrant).

So that's one testimony for a late marriage/marriage with an older man, and two testimonies for an early marriage/marriage to a young man, and so you would judge that you marry early (or to a young man).

We judge the same for children. We don't just look at the Cusp of the 5th House and say, "Oh, that's a Barren Sign so you won't have children" because that would be stupid. We look at the Cusps of the 1st, 5th and 11th Houses, then at the rulers of those Signs to see if they are Barren or Fruitful Planets, and then the Signs the rulers are in, and a few other things, and we make the judgment based on the overall testimonies, so someone with 3- testimonies and 8+ testimonies we would judge to have children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
I have one applying aspect to my Aries Sun, as Moon is Aquarius is applying a sextile from an Occidental house (7). This would indicate one marriage, correct?
Sun is in an applying aspect to Mars. Sun's Moiety Orb is 7.5 but his True Orb is 15 and Sun is applying to a sextile to Mars at 29 Aquarius. Now, in Horary, that aspect would never perfect, because Mars would change Signs, but we don't consider that in Natal.

You also have Mercury applying to the Sun. just 13 away, so that is two Planets in applying aspects with the Sun, and that indicates more than one marriage.

Also, the Sun in a Common or Movable Sign indicates more than marriage (no table dancing please).

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
My Venus has one applying aspect which is squaring Mars in Aquarius, also Occidental. Is this my divorce? My Venus is Oriental (10th house).
No, it's not your divorce. However, the Moon square Sun is a testimony of divorce (just as in my chart) and also no aspect between the Moon and Sun indicates divorce.

Divorce is not the only reason someone could have more than one marriage. The spouse could die, or abandon the family.

And Yes, you're on the right track. Since Venus is the Marriage Ruler (in addition to being the general significator of Marriage [& Love]) and is Oriental that is another testimony of marrying young, or marrying a young man (or many younger than you etc).

What I see in your Natal Chart is the likelihood of more than one marriage, the likelihood of divorce as the reason for more than one marriage and the Mars/Venus aspect would suggest your men may not be as affectionate as you want them (or need) to be.

Mars is in his own Term, but there's no reception at all (Venus is in Sign, Triplicity and the Term of Jupiter).

I notice Mars is in the 10th Sign from Venus, which is I think "Overcoming" but I don't know how that would apply here. That's an Hellenistic concept that got lost in the Middle Ages.

Venus is elevated above Mars, and I think the Sun as well, because by Whole Sign Venus is in the 10th Sign while Sun is in the 9th Sign (and House by Whole Sign).

That would suggest you would have the upper-hand in relationships and marriage in particular
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Unread 05-02-2011, 03:12 AM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

I will refrain from dancing on any tabletops. Thank you for helping me figure this one out! I wasn't aware about the orbs. This is all new to me, but I have a feeling it is opening up a new world in the same way horary did for me a couple of years ago. I have finished downloading Lilly and will start with the source.

>> and the Mars/Venus aspect would suggest your men may not be as affectionate as you want them (or need) to be.<<

Yep, you are right on. I am typically attracted to Saturnine types. I am drawn to their stability and strength, but emotive they are not! My ex-husband was the first non-Saturn type I ever dated, and maybe that is where I went wrong. He emoted all over the place, especially with other women.

Thank you so much for your help with all of this, and I hope the mods turn all of this important information into an easily referenced post!
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Unread 05-02-2011, 12:51 PM
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Re: An epiphany about horary

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Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
I will refrain from dancing on any tabletops.
I was kidding. Like I said, I got the impression from your various Horary Questions and postings that you are genuinely interested in marriage, so I thought you would be thrilled at the prospect of a second chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
I wasn't aware about the orbs. This is all new to me, but I have a feeling it is opening up a new world in the same way horary did for me a couple of years ago.
We use Orbs for different applications. Sometimes Whole Sign (applying) aspects, sometimes Planetary Orbs, and sometimes Moiety Orbs. If I were looking specifically at your Sun (your father) I would dismiss the Sun/Mars sextile because it is not within Moiety Orb, but when looking at other topics, I would include it because it is within the Sun's Planetary Orb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
>> and the Mars/Venus aspect would suggest your men may not be as affectionate as you want them (or need) to be.<<

Yep, you are right on. I am typically attracted to Saturnine types. I am drawn to their stability and strength, but emotive they are not! My ex-husband was the first non-Saturn type I ever dated, and maybe that is where I went wrong. He emoted all over the place, especially with other women.
Quote:
But, if Venus be found connected with Saturn, she will indicate dull and timid husbands; "if with Jupiter, the husbands will be good, just, and modest; "if with Mars, hasty, lustful, and adulterous; and if with Mercury, they will be extravagantly desirous of young persons.
If there's a silver lining:

Quote:
and [Sun with] Mercury, such as are provident and expert in business
My first wife was very Jupiterian. In fact, she was a teacher.

I'm thinking that you're next husband may be more Mercurian than Martian. Venus and Mercury are not in aspect in your chart, which is a good thing.

In other words, you had Sun/Mars sextile and Venus/Mars square for one husband, whereas you only have Mercury/Sun conjunct for the other potential husband. It doesn't actually say that in any of the texts (although some do cryptically hint at it), but in practice that's what I've found.
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