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Unread 07-26-2009, 12:17 AM
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Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Please forgive me for asking what may seem to be a simplistic question.

I've conducted serious introspective work within the past few weeks, and this work has made me realize how little I know about myself and the universe. Particularly, I've observed that I tend to identify myself with a small, narrow set of attributes and reject attributes which appear to contradict this perceived self-image. I believe this struggle is exemplified in each natal chart with the placement of planets in certain signs and houses--or rather, the perceived placement of the planets in certain signs and houses from our position on Earth. We each have all 360 degrees of the zodiac contained within our unique natal chart, yet as we know, the placement of each planet or energy embodiment in a certain sign modifies the expression of the planet's energy, thus providing a kind of focus--or distortion, depending upon how one views it. These and other astrological signatures forge a unique identity, which finds expression here, on this planet Earth. In other words, this unique identity is formed at the exclusion of all other possible identities.

I know I have not expressed this concept adequately; again, please forgive me.

I understand that the identity of an individual is represented by the natal chart as a whole. I also understand that, often, it is not wise to "pick apart" a natal chart because one inevitably loses the cohesiveness of the whole. Yet I've studied astrology long enough--albeit informally--to pick up certain catch phrases for the planets and points of a natal chart. For example, many astrologers regard the Ascendant as the mask one wears, how one projects oneself to others one does not know well, and the first impression one is likely to make with them. The Sun is regarded to be one's true self, the core of one's energy, that aspect of oneself one often projects to others when one feels comfortable with them. Yet I do not believe I have come across an astrological body or point that signifies how one regards oneself. How is self-image formed? Is it possible for one's self-image to be separate from a predominate influence in one's natal chart, if there is one? Why do people commonly identify with certain planetary positions or aspects in a natal chart and reject others?[/I] I find this particularly perplexing because, as I attempted to articulate in the first paragraph of this post, our unique identity is essentially a fragmented identity. Why are so many of us inclined to fragment a fragment?

Arian Maverick

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Last edited by Arian Maverick; 07-26-2009 at 12:22 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 01:21 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

How interesting!
I am inclined to say that we fragment ourselves from our chart because the complexities of it can be very overwhelming. We turn towards certain aspects becasue it is these that confuse us the most.
Also, I am inclined to say that the aspects that we fragment apart from the whole, are the ones we identify most with and want to understand completely.
First I too thought of the ascendant,
Then I went to the 7th house, how we identify ourselves is how we form relationships with others.
Further thinking brings me to the 4th house. The beginning, the womb. The safety of the womb protects us until we make our presence known when we are born. How do we mother ourselves? How do we care for ourselves? I think it begins with the fourth house.

I think that we can see much of our inner selves through our relationships we form on the outside.

I am not sure if this is what you are getting across here. But I have been thinking that the outer world (the planets) the houses represent us, true, but it seems that they do represent us in our dealings with the external.
Where are the issues from the internal occuring? Like a tree has branches, the branches are the aspects, to the planets, then there is the tree trunk. The realm from which it all starts; so what represents that?
I have to use examples. Does this describe what you are conveying?
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Unread 07-26-2009, 07:57 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Maverick,
Quote:
Why do people commonly identify with certain planetary positions or aspects in a natal chart and reject others?[/I] I find this particularly perplexing because, as I attempted to articulate in the first paragraph of this post, our unique identity is essentially a fragmented identity. Why are so many of us inclined to fragment a fragment?
I think why people identify with certain planets, energies is the houses...Angular, succeedent and cadent.

angular houses 1/7 4/10 the energies of planets placed here are obvious cos it's your 'shop window' visible for everyone to see. Next the succeedent houses 2/8 & 5/11 the energies in these houses are not in shop window the are in the shop, but stood behind the counter, ready to come out when needed. Lastly, cadent houses 6/12 & 3/9 these houses/planets are not in shop window or stood behind the counter, they are in the back storeroom and only come out when 'triggered' or an emergency and much harder to recognise and access...

You have to accept that we are ALL multi faceted being and what I feel astrology does is break down and compartmentalise these facets so we can understand them better, like psycho analasys. Once you understand the Asc sign and energies it's great, then MC/IC sun, moon aspects....

Identity is only a set of beliefs and these like secondary progressions are always growing and evolving. Your beliefs are what make us what are we today and by interaction with others we develop, grow and change


Quote:
Why are so many of us inclined to fragment a fragment?
Basically so we can understand ourselves better and hopefully other people to. When we were pre school age and ruled by moon/mum our basic beliefs guidlines, values we usually mums, then you get to school and mercury takes over, the learning process and so it goes on.

Why do so many people study psychology? because they want to understand human nature better and help people. Why do people study astrology, cos they want to understand their motivations, character traits of themselves and others. It's all about 'growth' like progressions, solar arcs.

smiling steph,
Quote:
Where are the issues from the internal occuring? Like a tree has branches, the branches are the aspects, to the planets, then there is the tree trunk. The realm from which it all starts; so what represents that?
Very nice analogy, we don't identify ourselves as leaves, twigs or branches, but the core is tree trunk, roots being family, branches = growth and development..

Last edited by astrologer50; 07-26-2009 at 08:00 PM.
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Unread 07-27-2009, 04:10 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Astro50, I am not sure if Arian found what she was looking for in our replies, but I really found yours to be quite organizing to me.

I can dissect things left and right, but to put my thoughts into a whole piece is very hard. I was going on the idea that:
The ascendant is one thing
The 4th house is our origin, the womb from which we arose
The 7th from which others see us in relationships
The 10th the way the public sees us..

But I erased this when answering this question for the first time, because I couldnt make sense of it!
Then I thought Oh my goodness these are the angular houses, so now I get that concept. It was not until I saw that you had them nicely listed that I really got that I was onto something there.

Personally I think that we see ourselves based on the relationships we choose, but then again that could be my moon, saturn and pluto in the 7th house. I had a tendancy to pick bad partners, to only look inside and realize that it was me who didnt like myself.

I like the concept between psychology and astrology, very fitting. I also agree that it is like a never-ending circle. We study astrology to find ourselves, and we study psychology to study others, then we use astrology to study others and use psychology to study ourselves at the same time.
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Unread 07-27-2009, 05:04 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Although I hesitate to 'fragment' the chart as you describe, I do think that we come from different places of our charts at different times. Some people pursue athletics because they like to experience their Jupiter / Mars components for a time, while others love to paint, at which time they may be coming from their Venus/Neptune components. Later that day they may visit their lawyer and respond from Mercury/Saturn, and see themselves from a whole different light. I don't think we are always fully integrated well enough to be working as a totally balanced, well oiled machine. I think that is the goal, and we may attain spurts of that 'perfect integration.'But throughout the day we experience different components of our chart according to what tasks we are attempting to fulfill.

I think certain intense studies like deep meditative techniques, may help us to integrate more fully and reach times of total clarity and wholeness. But most people cannot attain that level of total integration 24/7.

The one and only time I felt like a supreme, totally integrated, cosmic power, and KNEW who I was, was when I had died, literally, and my life was in suspended animation, while I saw my life speed past before me,like a video in backwards motion. When that overpowering white light appeared before me, and I was given the choice to follow it, or stay in my body for a second chance, I felt at once WHOLE and I had purpose and I was in touch with my deepest soul, my deepest self. Then I woke up on the beach with the EMT's pumping my chest, and pulling seaweed from my throat.

Last edited by katydid; 07-27-2009 at 05:14 PM.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 03:07 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Although I hesitate to 'fragment' the chart as you describe, I do think that we come from different places of our charts at different times. Some people pursue athletics because they like to experience their Jupiter / Mars components for a time, while others love to paint, at which time they may be coming from their Venus/Neptune components. Later that day they may visit their lawyer and respond from Mercury/Saturn, and see themselves from a whole different light. I don't think we are always fully integrated well enough to be working as a totally balanced, well oiled machine. I think that is the goal, and we may attain spurts of that 'perfect integration.'But throughout the day we experience different components of our chart according to what tasks we are attempting to fulfill.

I think certain intense studies like deep meditative techniques, may help us to integrate more fully and reach times of total clarity and wholeness. But most people cannot attain that level of total integration 24/7.

The one and only time I felt like a supreme, totally integrated, cosmic power, and KNEW who I was, was when I had died, literally, and my life was in suspended animation, while I saw my life speed past before me,like a video in backwards motion. When that overpowering white light appeared before me, and I was given the choice to follow it, or stay in my body for a second chance, I felt at once WHOLE and I had purpose and I was in touch with my deepest soul, my deepest self. Then I woke up on the beach with the EMT's pumping my chest, and pulling seaweed from my throat.
Wow, what an experience that was I am sure! Did it feel scary? Was the white light as amazing as some say? You know how when you go somewhere or meet someone it is like a familiar feeling, like a feeling of "fate" Is that what the light felt like, familiar? (or did you feel like you had been there before?)
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Unread 07-28-2009, 04:00 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingsteph View Post
Wow, what an experience that was I am sure! Did it feel scary? Was the white light as amazing as some say? You know how when you go somewhere or meet someone it is like a familiar feeling, like a feeling of "fate" Is that what the light felt like, familiar? (or did you feel like you had been there before?)
It was easily the most memorable 'crisis' of my long life, and I was only about 15 yrs old. Tr Neptune was conjunct my Pluto/SN in leo in my 4th.

I had kind of a crush on my older brothers friend. We were in Santa Cruz beach on a hot summer day, and my bro and his friend were swimming really far out past the breakwater.
My 'Venus in Sag' self had the great idea to swim out to them, but they had no idea i was coming out . I had not realized how far it was or how big the waves were at the breakwater. I was getting pretty tired but was determined to make it. Waves started pounding hard and then I felt the intense pulling of the riptide beneath me. Kind of like a funnel of water sucking me down a drain. I got pulled completely under a couple of times, and when I would get my head up out of the water, a wave would break right on my head, and I would get swirled around back under the water. This went on for quite awhile, and I am a strong swimmer, a lifetime California beach girl. But this was major,and i could not catch my breath. I was feeling weaker and weaker, and i remember clearly thinking that I was running out of air, and I thought I might die.
I was so dizzy by this time, that I swam hard to escape the riptide, but i hit my head on the bottom of the shore, in the sand. I was all turned around, and I was running completely out of air, and felt so light headed that I began to talk to my mom in my head, calling for her to help me. I pushed weakly off the sandy bottom and swam up towards the air. BUT THEN I HIT BOTTOM AGAIN. I could not believe it, but it was hard and cold, and I could not escape the water, or get any much needed air. I began to really really panic at first. I thought about how painful it would be to have to breathe in water, because i literally HAD NO MORE AIR. And then, suddenly, euphoria kind of set in. I just let go, and kind of gave up. And it felt beautiful, wonderful and soothing even.
Even to this day I am comforted in the personal knowledge that 'giving' in to imminent death was not painful, but blissful in it's own way. i did not choose death, it chose me it seemed. i was kind of sleepy, and it felt like a dream kind of, but I was not struggling or trying to escape the water anymore. And then I heard a loud rrruuusssshhhhh like sound and my entire life was playing before my eyes, literally, it felt like it was indeed my entire life, each day, speeding past, in a fast moving high speed video, before my minds eye. I was floating along underwater, unconscious at this point apparently.

And it just so happened that on my last attempt to make it up for air, I was underneath a large 2 man blow up raft. LUCKILY the kids on board felt me underneath trying to get up for air. They thought i was a shark or something at first, but they had their swcuba googles and saw me floating, and thought i was dead.

Anyhow,while the boys were signalling for the lifeguards and trying to hold my head up,
I saw the most powerful, indescribable light, that I can still envision to this day. it changed my entire life, from that day forward. but the light did beckon me, and i saw my grandfather, who died when I was very young. But he seemed to be telling me to go back. He was NOT motioning me forward towards him, he was saying to stay, hold on.

Then I woke up on the beach with the lifeguards and the emts, and my brother looking
on, scared to death and crying.
Nothing was the same in my life after that. All the anger at my dad for their divorce melted away and i was glad to be alive, and I forgave him.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 05:50 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Great question, Arian!

Only lately have i stopped thinking of the ASC as a mask--which is what I learned when I first studied astrology. As one's embodiment and personality, I think it is more fundamental, yet not necessarily how we see ourselves.

I have Virgo rising, with Saturn in Virgo in the 12th house opposite my sun in Aquarius in the 5th. I think I have usually been my own worst critic, and that picky Saturn in Virgo for some reason sums up an awful lot. Beyond that, with Mercury in Aquarius (conjunct Venus) as my chart ruler, I tend to see myself astrologically as Aquarian. I am also very oriented towards my many leisure pursuits (like astrology): a 5th house matter.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 05:51 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Thanks so much for that articulate account of your own NDE, katydid. It was a joy to read.

Quite recently - within the last 2 years - I recognised (in a kind of flash of inspiration) that my many bouts of severe and debilitating depression, particularly those in which I just wanted to `go home' have not been as a result of self-hatred, but of longing for `home' - the spirit world - where I knew who I was, and felt whole. I have not ever had that feeling here in the physical, and in some ways the knowledge I have gained from astrology has made this worse!!!! There is a compartmentalising in astrology which leads to me feeling quite fractured. I think this is behind my tendency towards giving readings which are very inclusive and look at the bigger picture of the chart.

And my answer to the OP's question? It depends on the day, and what I'm doing as to whether I perceive myself as my sun sign, or my Asc, or my Moon square Neptune, or my wishy-washy Libra Mars. I see myself in it all........... but then again, I sometimes see myself in what is not there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
It was easily the most memorable 'crisis' of my long life, and I was only about 15 yrs old. Tr Neptune was conjunct my Pluto/SN in leo in my 4th.

I had kind of a crush on my older brothers friend. We were in Santa Cruz beach on a hot summer day, and my bro and his friend were swimming really far out past the breakwater.
My 'Venus in Sag' self had the great idea to swim out to them, but they had no idea i was coming out . I had not realized how far it was or how big the waves were at the breakwater. I was getting pretty tired but was determined to make it. Waves started pounding hard and then I felt the intense pulling of the riptide beneath me. Kind of like a funnel of water sucking me down a drain. I got pulled completely under a couple of times, and when I would get my head up out of the water, a wave would break right on my head, and I would get swirled around back under the water. This went on for quite awhile, and I am a strong swimmer, a lifetime California beach girl. But this was major,and i could not catch my breath. I was feeling weaker and weaker, and i remember clearly thinking that I was running out of air, and I thought I might die.
I was so dizzy by this time, that I swam hard to escape the riptide, but i hit my head on the bottom of the shore, in the sand. I was all turned around, and I was running completely out of air, and felt so light headed that I began to talk to my mom in my head, calling for her to help me. I pushed weakly off the sandy bottom and swam up towards the air. BUT THEN I HIT BOTTOM AGAIN. I could not believe it, but it was hard and cold, and I could not escape the water, or get any much needed air. I began to really really panic at first. I thought about how painful it would be to have to breathe in water, because i literally HAD NO MORE AIR. And then, suddenly, euphoria kind of set in. I just let go, and kind of gave up. And it felt beautiful, wonderful and soothing even.
Even to this day I am comforted in the personal knowledge that 'giving' in to imminent death was not painful, but blissful in it's own way. i did not choose death, it chose me it seemed. i was kind of sleepy, and it felt like a dream kind of, but I was not struggling or trying to escape the water anymore. And then I heard a loud rrruuusssshhhhh like sound and my entire life was playing before my eyes, literally, it felt like it was indeed my entire life, each day, speeding past, in a fast moving high speed video, before my minds eye. I was floating along underwater, unconscious at this point apparently.

And it just so happened that on my last attempt to make it up for air, I was underneath a large 2 man blow up raft. LUCKILY the kids on board felt me underneath trying to get up for air. They thought i was a shark or something at first, but they had their swcuba googles and saw me floating, and thought i was dead.

Anyhow,while the boys were signalling for the lifeguards and trying to hold my head up,
I saw the most powerful, indescribable light, that I can still envision to this day. it changed my entire life, from that day forward. but the light did beckon me, and i saw my grandfather, who died when I was very young. But he seemed to be telling me to go back. He was NOT motioning me forward towards him, he was saying to stay, hold on.

Then I woke up on the beach with the lifeguards and the emts, and my brother looking
on, scared to death and crying.
Nothing was the same in my life after that. All the anger at my dad for their divorce melted away and i was glad to be alive, and I forgave him.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 06:03 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

I got every introspective about such matters at around 20 years of old, after reading a certain amount on the quest for 'self' and 'ego' and the like, through my interest in astrology. To be honest I don't think it is always desirable to introspect too much about such matters and can even be harmful if taken to extremes.

Maybe the chart and its factors work as components and to take one factor in isolation as representing what the whole thing actually may really be counter-productive. A stereo player or a car cannot work properly if one component is missing.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 07:07 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus7 View Post
To be honest I don't think it is always desirable to introspect too much about such matters and can even be harmful if taken to extremes.

Maybe the chart and its factors work as components and to take one factor in isolation as representing what the whole thing actually may really be counter-productive. A stereo player or a car cannot work properly if one component is missing.
Great analogy, Nexus.

I pretty much agree with what you said in your post.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 07:58 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Arian, you come up with the most complex, thoughtful topics. By the way, I still vote for a very late Pisces AC for you. You probably will want to thwack me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Maverick View Post
I've conducted serious introspective work within the past few weeks, and this work has made me realize how little I know about myself and the universe. Particularly, I've observed that I tend to identify myself with a small, narrow set of attributes and reject attributes which appear to contradict this perceived self-image. I believe this struggle is exemplified in each natal chart with the placement of planets in certain signs and houses--or rather, the perceived placement of the planets in certain signs and houses from our position on Earth. We each have all 360 degrees of the zodiac contained within our unique natal chart, yet as we know, the placement of each planet or energy embodiment in a certain sign modifies the expression of the planet's energy, thus providing a kind of focus--or distortion, depending upon how one views it. These and other astrological signatures forge a unique identity, which finds expression here, on this planet Earth. In other words, this unique identity is formed at the exclusion of all other possible identities.
I believe most people will find themselves concentrating on different parts of their charts during different times in their lives. That may sound simplisitic, but it is my experience.

It may also be that as we get older, with more memories of different phases in our lives, we may be able to link different periods with different parts of the chart. It's not that one factor or fragment no longer operates, it may just change from primary to secondary dominance while another factor comes to the fore-front.
Quote:
I understand that the identity of an individual is represented by the natal chart as a whole. I also understand that, often, it is not wise to "pick apart" a natal chart because one inevitably loses the cohesiveness of the whole.
And yet I think we sort of have to, then return to the whole, then parts, then whole, zooming in, zooming out. The whole may make the parts impossible to see. The parts may make the whole impossible to see. Paradox.
Quote:
Yet I've studied astrology long enough--albeit informally--to pick up certain catch phrases for the planets and points of a natal chart. For example, many astrologers regard the Ascendant as the mask one wears, how one projects oneself to others one does not know well, and the first impression one is likely to make with them. The Sun is regarded to be one's true self, the core of one's energy, that aspect of oneself one often projects to others when one feels comfortable with them.
Here is my experience: my AC is not a mask. It is not only something I project to people I don't know well. It is always there. It is part of me. However, with Virgo AC but Libra Sun/Moon, obviously there is an extreme contrast there, right? For someone else the AC may be very much in sync with the Sun but not the Moon, or vice versa. I would LIKE to be the Libra who loves to be around people, who is seen as magnetic, charming, and so on. Perhaps with a LEO AC I might be that person. But I'm not.

I appear distant, reserved, conservative, careful to people who meet me. That's more than the AC, but the AC sure is a big part of it. I could call that a mask, but I could also say that what I attempt to project, in overcoming this shyness and reserve, really IS my mask. Because in public, in order to mix with people, I have to pretend to be comfortable socializing when every cell in my body is SCREAMING to get away, do something more intimate and more private.

Thinking along those lines may ultimately help you make a final choice about your own AC.
Quote:
Yet I do not believe I have come across an astrological body or point that signifies how one regards oneself. How is self-image formed? Is it possible for one's self-image to be separate from a predominate influence in one's natal chart, if there is one?
My gut says yes. My gut says that we don't know enough about anything, including astrology, to pin down the mystery of who we are from any one factor, and that includes an astrology chart.
Quote:
Why do people commonly identify with certain planetary positions or aspects in a natal chart and reject others?[/I] I find this particularly perplexing because, as I attempted to articulate in the first paragraph of this post, our unique identity is essentially a fragmented identity. Why are so many of us inclined to fragment a fragment?
My answer: we see our charts as clearly as we see ourselves. Understanding ourselves is a never-ending process. If we truly knew exactly who we are, we would not be looking at birth charts, because we would already have all the answers.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

gaer,
Quote:
My answer: we see our charts as clearly as we see ourselves. Understanding ourselves is a never-ending process. If we truly knew exactly who we are, we would not be looking at birth charts, because we would already have all the answers.
I totally agree, it's hard to see ourselves as others see us and astrology helps us understand why.

Raven,
Quote:
Quite recently - within the last 2 years - I recognised (in a kind of flash of inspiration) that my many bouts of severe and debilitating depression, particularly those in which I just wanted to `go home' have not been as a result of self-hatred, but of longing for `home' - the spirit world - where I knew who I was, and felt whole. I have not ever had that feeling here in the physical, and in some ways the knowledge I have gained from astrology has made this worse!!!! There is a compartmentalising in astrology which leads to me feeling quite fractured. I think this is behind my tendency towards giving readings which are very inclusive and look at the bigger picture of the chart.
What astrologically do you feel is responsible for these feelings?

I was born with mercury retrograde and didn't come out of my shell til it turned direct age19, being typical placid taurean, but astrology has helped me understand lots of facets. Knowledge is powerful but understanding and integrating is rewarding. Sometimes astrology and reading clients charts is like counselling to, not only are you helping others but at the same time gaining experience and understanding yourself better. It's all 'therapeutic'

Katydid, wonderful experience something to treasure. The nearest I came to 'reconnecting back home' was at a school for developing mediums. It was a 'trance' class with lots of nepatism going on. Spirit drew so close to overshaddow and the best way I can explain in words is, 'plugging me back into the mains. They gave me the sensation, feeling, imagery that I was simply a 'drop of water' but that drop was still part of the ocean. That ocean was love, light and wholeness, perfection. It was really quite overwhelming and brought me to tears when I was asked to explain what happened..... hope one day to experience this again (spirit permitting with divine timing of course)

Identity is only a set of beliefs and these like secondary progressions are always growing and evolving. Your beliefs are what make us what we are today and by interaction with others we develop, grow and change

I think it's the hard aspects to Asc and MC that really make us want to see who we really are and keep searching for answers, bit like the 'mutables' restless, yearning and searching, very similar with lots of quincunxs. Maybe that's the riddle, exercise and reason we are here to develop with free will and interactions with others and develop character.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 02:06 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

ArianMaverick, as usual, an intriguing question coming from you

I believe that we can only see ourselves in our horoscopes when we dare to be honest with ourselves and admit where we have apparent problems, which I think we all have.
When others (7th house) tell us that they dont find this or that nice of us, then we should look at the aspect in our chart which represents that. So lets say your mother tells you: "you should be a bit more caring towards your little sister or common dear, give her also a bit of your chocolate" and your teacher tells you also that you could be a bit more helpful to your fellow students and maybe participate a bit more actively in some projects in class, just to give a simple example. As a kid, OK, you dont run and look into your chart for the "why am I like that".

But now, as an adult, you could think back and say, mmm..... lets see if I can detect this "not so caring and helpful side of me and why I tend to be like that".

And then you see that you have no water or a lack of water, or all planets on the East (left) side of your chart, showing a very self-orientated person. Nothing Virgo, service orientated stuff, no focus on 6th house. Or a stellium in Aries (me first) and ruler Mars conjunct Sun. Things like that. This could initially tell you a bit about yourself, but you should be able to acknowledge this also of course instead of thinking "ME??, no way, I am not at all like that".

From the 12th house ruler and it's aspects we can see if we are prepared to look into our subconscious motives. When the aspects to this ruler are difficult we might find it scary or hard to look at ourselves as well as having problems believing in karmic issues.No planets or very few below the horizon shows someone who has no inclination to look deeper into their selves, too busy on the outside.

Of course this is sometimes counteracted by maybe the Sun or Moon below the Horizon

We must understand the aspects between planets very well, understanding that easy aspects can just as well be negative as positive and the same goes for hard aspects.
(someone telling you that you are lazy for instance. See if you find a Venus-Jupiter trine or conjunction in a self-indulging sign.

Now personally I would look at the hard aspects first, because they show that something in our psyche is not going the way it should. We clearly have a problem which can show itself outward (like aggression or anger) or also directed inward, which then makes us into a person who hates him/herself and can do self damage.

I would make a list of "accusations" and go over them one by one, trying to see what could fit in your chart. If in doubt post a thread and ask what others experiences with this aspect in their charts has been.
Try to remember what people have told you that they dont like about you, starting from childhood. See if certain accusations are being repeated, also by other people lateron,not only by your brother or father & mother.

Doing this will make you realise how you really are, even if some of these aspects are less flattering. We can then start improving on them.

Own example:

1. You never listen! (my partner and ex husband)
2. You are so intens, dont talk so loud (my daughter. I am probably reflecting her own intensity and loud talking as she was told so in school by other students once.)
but yes, when I am convinced of something or want to make my point, I can be very intens (Pluto square Moon and Sun!). I know this now and must try to temper myself.
This problem comes probably because I was never really taken seriously in my youth, so now I want to be heard. I did a lot of acting, and then that voice came in handy

And there are also some very positive things which I just dont seem to perceive in myself so easily, like:
1. you are always so composed and self confident. Hallo!!! If they only knew!!! I am one chunck of emotions inside but I somehow must give that impression. Where can I find that in my chart?
Mars in Aries? my Jupiter conj. my Asc. maybe? Selfcontrol=composed= Pluto square Sun again and their rulers trining one another.(Venus trine Pluto).

So this is the way I go about getting to know my real self. And like SmilingSteph also wrote: 7th house (others), 10th house how we seem to come over in public (do we think we are popular or not and why could that be?) and 1st house.
The 4th house can tell us why we developed our behavior.

Hope I contributed a bit.
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Unread 07-28-2009, 02:29 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Ah, I reiterate...great question,

I wonder that pluto points to parts that we hide asiduously. I think I must have hid a lot with pluto sq sun.

It has been a journey discovering my chart, seeing which parts of the chart jump out and when. Transits seem to help to shine a bit of light onto those bits we may have hid from. Maybe that journey of enlightenment is seeing ourselves whole...and when we can see all parts of our chart, we are some parts whole.

I have a similar, journey to find my asc....what fits me and I have tried on leo asc and cancer asc....and always came back to gemini as I heard what others said about me. I tried kinesiology to muscle test the time and talked to my mum (emergency caeser) and my dad about what they remember. The kinesiology tested up two times, and then with a bit of digging, that the ancestors did not want me to know???? ok now what, well I went on my own merry way.... got more and more into art. Then an idea... mid point of the two time ( this is 4 years later now)... that time fits with my dad's story and puts venus at the top of my chart. Kind of like the ancestors needed me to find venus in my life before I could find it in my chart. I teach artistic pursuits.... and was doing this for a few years before I was able to confirm things.

Having said all that.... I will be spending the rest of my life finding out who I am.... and puzzling over the things I dont know about myelf.

Grettings
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Unread 07-28-2009, 03:09 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

First of all.... I am with Gaer and second the Pisces Asc (yet again)

My first inclination when reading the post was to say.... that is easy, we identify ourselves through the second house, where we find how and what we value, including ourselfs. Then I thought again, maybe this was a personal conclusion as I have Chiron in Pisces there and have struggled with self worth and worthiness.

So back to the drawing board, then *snap* a pattern emerged (Neptune conjunct the MC and Pallas). Over the years I have noticed that Astrologers will often explain themselves away (like I just did above) by pointing out aspects in their charts that make them such... Conjunctions seem to be the favorite (if you look through this thread alone you will see how others mentioned them in their lists of how they express) I guess they are like a supernova hybrid planet... I have Mars and Mercury conjunct by 4 minutes and I don't know if I could differentiate which planet is doing what, they work together.

The deeper we delve into Astrology, the more elusive the answer to this question will become.... do we identify with those with essential dignities, or those that are faltering. Do the decants or dwads play a role? A contradictory persona chart for a planet may have us looking elsewhere when the answer is right there. Are transits or progressions why we change our focus on our identity over the years? Radu wrote an excellent article on the use of Antiscons in Horary... maybe we should take a page from his theory and apply to the natal chart to see the motives behind what we are doing or identifying with.

Well, that wasn't very beneficial in pinpointing was it?

TK
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  #17  
Unread 08-16-2009, 05:33 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

I think it's the moment we look at our chart and stop projecting parts of ourselves everywhere. And we just have that blinding flash of clarity come over us, and we see ourselves for ALL of who we are, and not only the cut off parts or separate pieces of ourselves, that can remain un-acknowledged. We become a whole ball ....exactly like this.


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Unread 08-17-2009, 03:17 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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Originally Posted by chispas View Post
If you are looking for the part that hides, or the unacknowledged self (Jung's shadow), Steinbrecher says it is in the 7th house. Turn your horoscope upside down so that the 7th house becomes the first house and read the house and the planets (if any) as if it was your first house for a description of the shadow.
This is an interesting possibility, as the 7th house is not only the house of marriage, but the house of "open enemies." It can show where and how we give our power away. With many women, unfortunately, it shows where they give their power away to a BF/SO who doesn't appreciate the favour. The 7th house [possibly excepting those with a sun or stellium there] could well be the Shadow, because it is the opposite point of the Self that is symbolized by the Asc and 1st house.
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Unread 08-17-2009, 07:55 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
This is an interesting possibility, as the 7th house is not only the house of marriage, but the house of "open enemies." It can show where and how we give our power away. With many women, unfortunately, it shows where they give their power away to a BF/SO who doesn't appreciate the favour. The 7th house [possibly excepting those with a sun or stellium there] could well be the Shadow, because it is the opposite point of the Self that is symbolized by the Asc and 1st house.
I have heard the 7th describes your first marriage partner....
Start with the 7th House as the 1st marriage and go counterclockwise around the wheel, skipping every other house, to see all other marriages. To find out more about your first marriage partner, turn your horoscope wheel upside down so that the Seventh House is on the left side, where the First house is normally located. Then, Re-number the houses. House number 7 becomes house 1, the 8th house becomes house 2, and so on. Now read that chart as if it were the horoscope of your marriage partner.
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/AngularHouses.htm
http://www.astrologyinserbia.com/e/index.html
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Unread 08-17-2009, 09:27 AM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
This is an interesting possibility, as the 7th house is not only the house of marriage, but the house of "open enemies." It can show where and how we give our power away. With many women, unfortunately, it shows where they give their power away to a BF/SO who doesn't appreciate the favour. The 7th house [possibly excepting those with a sun or stellium there] could well be the Shadow, because it is the opposite point of the Self that is symbolized by the Asc and 1st house.
I'm quite fascinated by the idea that the 7th house represents the shadow - or hidden/unacknowledged self. We tend to choose partners (quite unconsciously) who will `show' us the parts of ourselves which we are in need of seeing - and so integrating into the Whole - so this can fit with the concept overall.

I actually have Sun conj Pluto in 7th, along with Mercury. I have tended to be somewhat mouthy and opinionated - in my youth at least - and was not fully aware of this. My sun conj Pluto has certainly been a part of me which has taken me a couple of decades to unravel and integrate. The square of tr Pluto to this conjunction started the ball rolling.
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Unread 08-17-2009, 03:11 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

astrologer 50, looking at my natal Pluto is in Leo, Saturn and Mars are in Cancer in the 7th house. My first husband was a controller, abusive and wanted all his way. Mars there would fuel this. I will check out the rest and see what I have become from this. I know it made me a different person and i would like to get back to my happy self. When Pluto passed over my IC, my oldest son had severe head injuries from car accident, lost my 6 week old baby girl and had to start all over again. When passing over my descendent I lost the husband ,job and alot of myself. This was not a good time I understand that when Pluto hit the 4 major points of our charts, there will be alot of changes. You wrote me that Pluto will be going over my Ascendent in the next 2 years. I have followed all your links and from what I learned, it doesn't look good. I have no idea how it could be worse then all that I have endured so far. Thank you for your response. Di
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Unread 08-17-2009, 03:27 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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Originally Posted by DVANZETT View Post
astrologer 50, looking at my natal Pluto is in Leo, Saturn and Mars are in Cancer in the 7th house. My first husband was a controller, abusive and wanted all his way. Mars there would fuel this. I will check out the rest and see what I have become from this. I know it made me a different person and i would like to get back to my happy self. When Pluto passed over my IC, my oldest son had severe head injuries from car accident, lost my 6 week old baby girl and had to start all over again. When passing over my descendent I lost the husband ,job and alot of myself. This was not a good time I understand that when Pluto hit the 4 major points of our charts, there will be alot of changes. You wrote me that Pluto will be going over my Ascendent in the next 2 years. I have followed all your links and from what I learned, it doesn't look good. I have no idea how it could be worse then all that I have endured so far. Thank you for your response. Di
Pluto is a biggie, I know when it went over my MC few years ago, my father died, my marriage broke down and I got a job (first time in over 14years, as stay at home mum) all over a period of 12-18months. BUT I have Pluto from 7th squaring MC, Uranus close trine also from 7th which also opposes Asc.

I was prepared and expecting my father to pass away, in fact I gave my mother 3dates and it was the retrograde hit.Her sun is conj my MC and therefore conj her Sun same time.

You need to look at any planets aspecting your Asc from what houses and signs to ascertain its effects. Good luck
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Unread 08-17-2009, 06:17 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
Pluto is a biggie, I know when it went over my MC few years ago, my father died, my marriage broke down and I got a job (first time in over 14years, as stay at home mum) all over a period of 12-18months. BUT I have Pluto from 7th squaring MC, Uranus close trine also from 7th which also opposes Asc.

I was prepared and expecting my father to pass away, in fact I gave my mother 3dates and it was the retrograde hit.Her sun is conj my MC and therefore conj her Sun same time.

You need to look at any planets aspecting your Asc from what houses and signs to ascertain its effects. Good luck
When Pluto went over my MC I stopped ,cold,making money.The planets aspecting my Asc are squ to Aries in 3rd, trine to Taur in 4th,squ to Lib in 9th and sex to Scorp in 10th, asc was opp MNN. I am just a beginner so I hope this is what you need, if not please call again. Thanks, Di
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Unread 08-17-2009, 06:38 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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Originally Posted by Arian Maverick View Post
Why are so many of us inclined to fragment a fragment?

Arian Maverick
To answer this and the question in the subject line -

I see myself in the entire chart, working together as a whole. I'm not really inclined to fragment a fragment, which is part of the reason why I'm not really into Persona charts.
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Unread 08-17-2009, 07:04 PM
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Re: Where in a Natal Chart Does a Person See Himself?

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When Pluto went over my MC I stopped ,cold,making money.The planets aspecting my Asc are squ to Aries in 3rd, trine to Taur in 4th,squ to Lib in 9th and sex to Scorp in 10th, asc was opp MNN. I am just a beginner so I hope this is what you need, if not please call again. Thanks, Di
What you have describes is the 'signs' not planets. It's the planets and mathetmatical aspects it makes to Asc ie: 90' square 120' trine etc
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