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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 07-24-2009, 11:56 AM
SpyderDNA SpyderDNA is offline
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Equal House System or Not?

I was born in England and am having difficulty figuring out which house system to use for my natal chart. When I switch between Equal and Placidus, 5 of my planets switch houses. So far the equal system feels better to me because of their placement over Placidus.

Any northern astrologers have a preference?

Thanks Gary

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  #2  
Unread 07-24-2009, 12:10 PM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Hi- If the Equal house system fits your perception of your self and how your life plays out, then use it, but keep in mind there are other systems apart from Placidus and Equal that could be looked into to. I have found both Porphry and Koch houses to work ok with northern charts.
Actually, setting up your chart in each house system and really looking into it carefully is a most illuminating and worthwhile exercise. Bear in mind though, sometimes we are not able to be very objective when looking at ourselves through our charts.
For me, Equal houses move a significant number of my planets into houses that don't really play out in my life.Placidus describes the events of my life very well, but then I was born in the lower part of the Southern hemisphere.
A close friend/client of mine was born in Northern England-the Placidus system just happens to work very well for her chart even though it creates a couple of large houses with interceptions..
Its quite a complex topic with no easy answers, and indeed is a personal decision based on your own self awareness.
all the best
Lillyjgc
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  #3  
Unread 07-24-2009, 05:38 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

If you are new to astrology, equal house can be a good way to go. There is a whole lot of valid info to be had using this house system and to start with it is perfect. Then after you really have all the other components down, then look at other house systems again. By then you will be better able to assess them all.
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Unread 07-24-2009, 06:46 PM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

House systems
Lots of people that come into Astrology get their free charts calculated at www.astro.com and the default ‘house system’ used is Placidus and think that’s just the norm and all that there is……..BUT that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can change the default on astro.com in Extended Chart selection to Equal house and a few more.

Throughout the forums but mainly in natal astrology there are two main branches Placidus (unequal size houses) v Equal House (whereby each house is same size) but lots more……. For more information on these go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_house_system#Equal_House
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm

For further research try here...
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3280&highlight=placidus+equal
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=638&highlight=house+system
It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'

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  #5  
Unread 07-25-2009, 01:53 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Katydid,

If you are new to astrology, equal house can be a good way to go.

I'm interested in this comment..wondering what your rationale is here. When I construct my own natal chart with Equal Houses, the house rulers change. So instead of Jupiter ruling my H4, for example, using Equal, Mars becomes the ruler. This radically alters an interpretation of my natal chart.
My tenth house planets move to h11, using Equal-etc and so it goes.My h8 planets would move back into h7.
My h6 of illness is ruled by venus in placidus, but Mercury in Equal. These discrepancies would very significantly alter an interpretation of Medical matters in my chart.
If I had started out studying Astrology using Equal houses, and had not experimented broadly with other house systems, I may have abandonned my astrological studies, on the basis that it *wasn't accurate* and didnt truthfully describe my life or circumstances. I'm sure this happens.
So it's not just that planets start falling in different houses, its also that house rulerships change and as I use mainly Traditional techniques to interpret natal charts which places a strong emphasis on the interplay between the rulers, rather than looking so much at the sun sign on the house cusp.
Frankly, selection of the house system most appropriate to our birthplace seems to be one of the most important decisions we have to make as astrologers.
I understand we have to start somewhere, but I also think its vital to invest the time at the start into getting a good grip on the implications of house placements, and that involves a lot of research and study-well worth doing.
Cheers
Lillyjgc
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  #6  
Unread 07-25-2009, 02:18 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Lilly, I am generally happy with Placidus [unless it's a high latitude birth], but I can see a couple of advantages for beginners with an equal house system.

One is that an unequal house system can yield intercepted houses, where a sign is enclosed by two other signs within the same house. Some astrologers ignore intercepted houses, but others (me too!) think they yield important information. Yet they arguably are not Astrology 101 material.

After someone gets the basics down, then I think they should play around with the different house systems to see what suits them best.

Also, where one really cannot ascribe an accurate birth time, but is pretty clear what is the rising sign, a whole sign system may be the best you can do, beyond dispensing with houses and simply looking at planets in signs and aspects. As you know, many traditional astrologers would use the whole sign system exclusively, anyway.

An Australian astrologer whom I much admire, Alice Portman, argues that different house systems work better or worse for different people; and that you can discover these by looking at Uranus transits. Her rationale is that Uranus signifies sudden change from the affairs of one house to another.

SpyderDNA, the mathematics also varies from one house system to another. As you read up on them, you may find that some house systems strike you as logically more defensible than others.

But we should all tread softly here. I have seen World War III just about break out over the debate about which house system to use!
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  #7  
Unread 07-25-2009, 02:34 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Way,
But we should all tread softly here. I have seen World War III just about break out over the debate about which house system to use!

Yes, that's why I don't personally *advocate* which house system is the *right one* to use. It's also why I feel compelled to point out to *newbies* that there's a lot to be considered and just because Equal House system works well for some, does not mean it will be the right one for everyone.

One is that an unequal house system can yield intercepted houses, where a sign is enclosed by two other signs within the same house. Some astrologers ignore intercepted houses, but others (me too!) think they yield important information. Yet they arguably are not Astrology 101 material.

I personally think intercepted houses yield important information.It's logical. If you live in North alaska your life may be VERY different to that of someone living in the Equatorial zone. Intercepted houses can really describe these facets of life very accurately.

Also, where one really cannot ascribe an accurate birth time, but is pretty clear what is the rising sign, a whole sign system may be the best you can do, beyond dispensing with houses and simply looking at planets in signs and aspects. As you know, many traditional astrologers would use the whole sign system exclusively, anyway.

Yes. But also many traditional astrologers used Morinus and other systems.Personally I don't like to interpret charts with unknown birth times, even if rising sign can be *guessed at.* There's just too much room for error. In that case I think proper professional rectification is the next best option.

I don't really understand why the House system issue has become contentious on this Forum-it never used to be.For most people it seems that Placidus works very well and that's the reason astro.com made it the default system I guess. Regio works well for Horary-but so also does placidus.Only at extreme latitudes will it present problems (possibly, but theres a case that can be argued that these arent really *problems* as such-just a situation that requires a more detailed look.).

Cheers
Lilly
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  #8  
Unread 07-25-2009, 06:08 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Meridian houses changes house one cusp-radically! (from being Saturn ruled to being Jupiter ruled.) I'd be very careful with this one- Using meridian, pretty much everything changes in my chart-but it's definitely worth experimenting with. Meridian is a bit similar to Regio.apparently.
Lillyjgc
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  #9  
Unread 07-25-2009, 06:23 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

I would suggest to those who are learning to stick to the house system used by books or sources they are using to study.

Quite obviously if texts discuss intercepted signs and assume that the MC is also the cusp of the 10th house, it is going to be terribly confusing to work in equal house, for example.

If texts are showing how to erect a chart using equal houses, then that system should be used first.

Once you have mastered one method or another (or yet another, such as whole sign), you should be ready to explore the pluses and minues of other systems.
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  #10  
Unread 07-25-2009, 12:50 PM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

The subject definately surfaces a lot of uncertainty and confusion when you consider the trickle affect of the house cusp placement. Someone earlier talked about rulerships and intercepted signs being displaced.
If the so called "Ancients" used equal house system, is that because they were more in tune with the universe, or they just did not know or care about people in northern Europe. Perhaps the houses should just start at a relative position from where you are on this big sphere, should the mathematics alter depending where you are on the sphere.
If the zodiac signs are accepted as being equal and the energy signatures are geometricaly precise divisions, then why not house divisions?
The Placidus, Koch etc to me feel overly distorted, and as I said in first post, the equal house fits me better. But, that may not help me with interpreing someone else's chart.
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  #11  
Unread 07-25-2009, 05:00 PM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

The easiest way to explain i think why Hellenistic astrologers used whole house system is because, one aspect of life, is ruled by one sign. One house one job.

Also, if your using arabic lots, when you make the chart radical to that lot, you don't have to re-draw the chart (if its in whole house) And most of the traditional techniques, for example ptolemy states in the tetrabiblos, using the childs chart, you can use the position of the moon or venus as the first house for the chart of the mother.

Alot of the older techniques in the ancient texts involve turning the chart, and this would have been more difficult and used more ink and paper, took more time to do the house cusps again, if they had to redo the chart in a new house system, rather then just turn it.
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  #12  
Unread 07-26-2009, 02:26 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

I think it is important for astrologers to learn to read a chart without a birth time--and with little possibility of rectification. Sometimes--notably for people who lived in the past and are no longer living, and where life-event details are scanty-- it is just the best you can do.

For example, I am a genealogy/family history buff. I haven't had a lot of time to do the charts of all of my ancestors for whom I have birth dates and locations, but I hope to get to them this winter. Not only are significant life events hard to find for an ancestor born in the 18th century, beyond church records of birth, baptism, marriage, and death; but it is hard to imagine what ancestors' lives were like in the 19th and 18th centuries (and earlier.) So rectification would be pretty dodgy.

Nevertheless, I have found Moon-Mercury contacts in my maternal ancestors going back 7 generations, even allowing for a + or - 6-degree variance for the moon position (with a noon default chart.) I have found sun-Pluto contacts in both male and female family members for 3 generations.

In such cases, you just have to forget houses and work with planets in aspect, and planets in signs. Robert Hand's books Planets in Youth and Planets in Transit indirectly give just great ways to think about charts without worrying about houses or even signs, because they focus so strongly on aspects. I believe that Uranian astrology functions in a similar way, in focussing even more narrowly on hard aspects.

Another way, where you have a good birth time, to think through the best house system, is to look at the planetary ruler of the house cusps according to different systems. For example, in some systems, someone with the sun in Taurus might have Taurus on the house cusp [and therefore Venus as cusp ruler] whereas in others, Aries might be on the sun's house cusp [and therefore Mars is cusp ruler.] Well, this makes a big difference if you work with so-called "accidental house cusp rulers" or "lords." The principle here is, "The house over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands." It does so both by house placements and also by aspects. So people can play around with these house cusp rulers under different house systems to see if there is a change; and if so, which system works best for them.
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  #13  
Unread 07-26-2009, 04:39 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
Katydid,

If you are new to astrology, equal house can be a good way to go.

I'm interested in this comment..wondering what your rationale is here. When I construct my own natal chart with Equal Houses, the house rulers change. So instead of Jupiter ruling my H4, for example, using Equal, Mars becomes the ruler. This radically alters an interpretation of my natal chart.
My tenth house planets move to h11, using Equal-etc and so it goes.My h8 planets would move back into h7.
My h6 of illness is ruled by venus in placidus, but Mercury in Equal. These discrepancies would very significantly alter an interpretation of Medical matters in my chart.
If I had started out studying Astrology using Equal houses, and had not experimented broadly with other house systems, I may have abandonned my astrological studies, on the basis that it *wasn't accurate* and didnt truthfully describe my life or circumstances. I'm sure this happens.
So it's not just that planets start falling in different houses, its also that house rulerships change and as I use mainly Traditional techniques to interpret natal charts which places a strong emphasis on the interplay between the rulers, rather than looking so much at the sun sign on the house cusp.
Frankly, selection of the house system most appropriate to our birthplace seems to be one of the most important decisions we have to make as astrologers.
I understand we have to start somewhere, but I also think its vital to invest the time at the start into getting a good grip on the implications of house placements, and that involves a lot of research and study-well worth doing.
Cheers
Lillyjgc
Well, I guess because when I began as a new student, I was not really looking at house rulerships so much.That was kind of advanced for me at the time. I was just looking at the basic meaning of each planet, and each sign and the aspects they were making. In my chart the houses do not change that radically in equal house, so it did not make such a huge difference.
I see your points, and they are extremely valid, but IF a new student is aware that there are differing house systems, then if the placements do not ring true, they can look at others.
The reason I used to teach my beginning students using Equal House method was because it was so much less confusing for them. It was easier for them to begin to read the planets in signs and houses and their aspects when the houses are not 'confusing'. But most of my students were born in the states, so there are similar houses to the equal system, and not many hugely varied houses. But keep in mind when I was teaching back in the day, there were not many computers available, everything was hand calculated, so it made a BIG difference to just use Equal to begin with.

I agree that choosing house system is a huge and very significant decision to make, but imo, it is not one that a new student needs to make immediately.
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  #14  
Unread 07-26-2009, 04:48 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

I've been using Regiomontanus system which was advocated by my teacher and a great french astrologer Jean-Baptise Morin. In my experience it works very well with my chart. I was born in a northern latitude so have huge houses with interceptions in my 1/7 and it really fits my life with focus on relationship is out of proportion to everything else. Equal houses just do not represent my life and psychological makeup, so I find them of little use.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 08:19 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyderDNA View Post
I was born in England and am having difficulty figuring out which house system to use for my natal chart. When I switch between Equal and Placidus, 5 of my planets switch houses. So far the equal system feels better to me because of their placement over Placidus.

Any northern astrologers have a preference?

Thanks Gary
As you have seen this is quite a 'hot topic' here on AW, but again my best advice would be try one or two and 'see which glove fits'. I use Equal house and if I change to Placidus it moves the main 3 (sun, venus,merc) from 4th to 2nd house which simply does not fit me. It also moves others around to but to me this is enough alone to realise that Equal describes ME best

I live in UK with Aquarius rising which has a short time for ascension which makes 1/7th huge and moves everything around. I have also taught astrology in Adult Education settings and when students are first learning and don't know there exact time, each week they would rectify their own chart simply by reading, studying what each planet meant to each house and how that energy would operate. Week by week it would narrow down the Asc and time just by using this method.
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  #16  
Unread 08-02-2009, 01:46 AM
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Re: Equal House System or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
If you are new to astrology, equal house can be a good way to go. There is a whole lot of valid info to be had using this house system and to start with it is perfect. Then after you really have all the other components down, then look at other house systems again. By then you will be better able to assess them all.
Totally agree. I am lucky in that Placidus or Equal for me, there is little difference. The house signs can change and therefore the rulers but with experience you will discern which works for you. The main MC IC ASC DESC does not change and that is important. This is a question that has long vexed astrologers and no doubt will continue to do so.
Good luck

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