Getting away with it

Osamenor

Staff member
You really think that tens of millions of crimes, incl murder remain unsolved?:surprised:

That's really not true. Most cases of murder are solved but there are a few that don't. However, some cases take decades to solve.

Many times, law enforcement do know who the killers are but don't have enough evidence, etc.

Literal numbers aren't exactly relevant here. The point is, plenty of crimes, including but not limited to murder, are gotten away with.

Fixating on the numbers is non-astrological. This is an astrological thread. Please tie in the relevant astrology.

And, as you point out, some unsolved crimes do get solved after decades. There have been people arrested for murder after decades of getting away with it, and likely believing they'd gotten away with it for good. Most other crimes, in most countries, have statutes of limitations that preclude being arrested decades after the fact, otherwise there could be even more kinds of crime that lead to arrests decades later.

I wonder about those cold case solves. Do they inevitably happen when something in the culprit's transits or progressions echoes their transits at the time of the crime? Did the original crime have all the right conditions, astrologically, for getting away with it, and then progressions interfered? Something else?
 

Osamenor

Staff member
A combust moon will help considerably if you're doing something you don't want anyone to find out about.

Ah, so that's why the dark of the moon is witching time! :alien:

It's not just that the lack of a visible moon gives you more dark to hide in, if you do it at night?

It also seems to me like doing the nefarious deed at night would be easier to get away with. Maybe just because there's less chance of being seen, between the darkness and people not being out and about as much, but is there some astrological correlation between sun below the horizon and nefarious deeds?
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I agree that a well-placed Mercury would fit the crafty, mischievous character getting away with it.

If Saturn is prominent then obviously it won't work. Hard aspects from Saturn indicate never being able to get away with it; it's always the hard way. Positive aspects indicate someone preferring to do the right thing. Finding it easier to follow the rules than to take risks.
Agreed, but I think there could be a lot of nuance here. For instance, Saturn could be safely tucked away in the chart of the moment but making a hard hitting transit to your birth chart. Hard hitting Saturn transits are times when, if you've been evading authority and getting away with something, authority catches up with you.

I think positive 5th house placements would also indicate getting away with it. It's the house of good fortune. You can win bets, gambles, take risks and come out with only a slap or a wrist or a big win.
You can also lose big on a fifth house endeavor. Though that may be more likely if the condition of the fifth house ruler isn't so good.

Jupiter and Venus, the benefics, probably also indicate luck or getting away with it. Venus gives you beauty and charm, Jupiter gives you positivity and luck.
However, Jupiter also deals with ethics and community morals. If what you're doing is unethical, or simply against your society's standards, Jupiter might not be on your side.

Now, if you come up with a moral justification for what you're doing, Jupiter may favor you.

I seriously doubt the 12th house is a lucky house. This is like the worst house. the 12th house is about isolation and higher spirituality. It's not about getting away with something, it's about losing everything. It's about finding a higher path, finding something above the lower "materialistic" matters. Getting away with a few bucks or a silly prank is totally unrelated with the 12th house.
It's also a house where "harmful" planets can do the least harm. Tuck Saturn safely away in the twelfth, and Saturn problems aren't so much of an issue. Or so it's been said, traditionally, as a reason why Saturn joys in the twelfth. That, and the isolation and endings.

I suppose Jupiter in the twelfth may be a lucky placement in this kind of event chart for the same reason. Plus, as katydid said:
The 12th rules 'endings so in event charts, the 12th house can indicate how the event ends ---how things turn out.

Jupiter can provide protection at the end of an event.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
Based on your posting, I looked at the chart of one of the most cold cases, the Golden State Killer who got away with his murders & rapes for DECADES!

When they did catch him in early 2018, due to DNA registry base...

:mars::pluto: :capricorn::opposition: killer's :mars::saturn::cancer:

:jupiter: :conjunct::sun::trine:killer's :saturn:

:saturn:always gets you in the end.;););)


He was able to get away with it for so long with that lucky :jupiter::trine::uranus:vertex. :moon::sextile::venus::libra: & nobody suspected he had such rage against women because the one he loved rejected him when he was young.


To his neighbours, 72-year-old Joseph DeAngelo was an unlikeable, whingeing curmudgeon. No doubt he would have bitched at the nickname they gave him too, “Crazy Joe”. But that is nothing compared with the label police and prosecutors in the United States are now trying to pin on him. They accuse DeAngelo of being the Golden State Killer, a serial murderer and rapist as vile as has ever lived. In the 1970s and 80s, it’s alleged he wreaked havoc all over the state of California while evading capture. And he might have gotten away with it forever, except for some of the most innovative detective work you will ever see.



DeAngelo continued to obsess over Bonnie Colwell. “He would say, ‘Yeah, that Bonnie, she broke my heart,’ and ‘She was the love of my life.



https://www.latimes.com/california/...onfession-circus-atmosphere-and-a-bar-of-gold







I wonder about those cold case solves. Do they inevitably happen when something in the culprit's transits or progressions echoes their transits at the time of the crime? Did the original crime have all the right conditions, astrologically, for getting away with it, and then progressions interfered? Something else?
 

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Osamenor

Staff member
The Golden State Killer is a great example. Thanks for sharing @blackbery!

Interesting that he had a Pluto to natal Saturn transit in the picture at the time he was caught. Pluto certainly reveals things, and it can certainly bring a downfall.

Hard Saturn transits may be involved in the law clamping down, but obviously not every hard Saturn transit will reveal everything, because this guy got away with murder, literally, for more than 40 years. Saturn hard angled everything in his chart in that time, some placements more than once.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Agreed, but I think there could be a lot of nuance here. For instance, Saturn could be safely tucked away in the chart of the moment but making a hard hitting transit to your birth chart. Hard hitting Saturn transits are times when, if you've been evading authority and getting away with something, authority catches up with you.

You can also lose big on a fifth house endeavor. Though that may be more likely if the condition of the fifth house ruler isn't so good.

However, Jupiter also deals with ethics and community morals. If what you're doing is unethical, or simply against your society's standards, Jupiter might not be on your side.

Now, if you come up with a moral justification for what you're doing, Jupiter may favor you.

It's also a house where "harmful" planets can do the least harm. Tuck Saturn safely away in the twelfth, and Saturn problems aren't so much of an issue. Or so it's been said, traditionally, as a reason why Saturn joys in the twelfth. That, and the isolation and endings.

I suppose Jupiter in the twelfth may be a lucky placement in this kind of event chart for the same reason. Plus, as katydid said:

That's a good point with Saturn being hidden in the 12th. For Jupiter, I would actually think the opposite. If Jupiter is in the 12th, then it can't be "out there" doing its good work.

I would imagine Mercury in the 12th would be a place of trickery. What people say and think is hidden away or isolated from other people. They could probably get away with stuff, compared to someone with Mercury on the angles.
 

katydid

Well-known member
That's a good point with Saturn being hidden in the 12th. For Jupiter, I would actually think the opposite. If Jupiter is in the 12th, then it can't be "out there" doing its good work.

I would imagine Mercury in the 12th would be a place of trickery. What people say and think is hidden away or isolated from other people. They could probably get away with stuff, compared to someone with Mercury on the angles.

Jupiter doesn't need to be 'out there' to be doing it's good work. The 12th house is Jupiter's realm. That's it's spiritual seat.

With the transit of Jupiter to the 12th, you will be under spiritual protection. You will also be more connected with your subconsciousness and you will be overflowing with empathy and compassion. That's it how it does it's work.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Jupiter doesn't need to be 'out there' to be doing it's good work. The 12th house is Jupiter's realm. That's it's spiritual seat.

With the transit of Jupiter to the 12th, you will be under spiritual protection. You will also be more connected with your subconsciousness and you will be overflowing with empathy and compassion. That's it how it does it's work.

I thought 12th house was home of Saturn. But I see what you mean..
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Again, we're talking about the twelfth house of an event chart here, not a natal chart.

For an event chart, when the event is you doing something you're aiming to get away with, my thought is that you'd want to tuck away any planets that would interfere. Saturn is authority. Jupiter is morals. If those planets are hiding, in a cadent house, they've got less power to manifest. Authority and morals aren't going to come down on you.

Except maybe when those planets have moved to a more active position, perhaps?
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I thought 12th house was home of Saturn. But I see what you mean..

Joys aren't the same thing as domicile, and we're looking at two different schools of astrology here. The twelfth house vibe with Jupiter is based on the natural chart and the idea of natural house rulers: the alignment of signs with houses based on Aries as the first house, Mars as the natural first house ruler, Taurus/Venus as the second, etc. That aligns Pisces with the twelfth, so gives the twelfth some Jupiter because of Jupiter's traditional rulership of Pisces. However, natural houses are a thoroughly modern astrology concept.

Houses of joy are a traditional concept, and they don't have the same basis as natural houses.

But we can certainly draw from both ideas. That connects both Jupiter and Saturn with the twelfth house.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Joys aren't the same thing as domicile, and we're looking at two different schools of astrology here. The twelfth house vibe with Jupiter is based on the natural chart and the idea of natural house rulers: the alignment of signs with houses based on Aries as the first house, Mars as the natural first house ruler, Taurus/Venus as the second, etc. That aligns Pisces with the twelfth, so gives the twelfth some Jupiter because of Jupiter's traditional rulership of Pisces. However, natural houses are a thoroughly modern astrology concept.

Houses of joy are a traditional concept, and they don't have the same basis as natural houses.

But we can certainly draw from both ideas. That connects both Jupiter and Saturn with the twelfth house.
since we are "...drawing from both ideas..." :smile:

lets consider that originally,
traditionally
THEMA MUNDI
associates 12th House with SATURN and MERCURY
Saturn's signs aspect the signs of both the luminaries via OPPOSITION.
Capricorn opposes Cancer.
Aquarius opposes Leo.
So opposition traditionally is of the nature of Saturn.
because
It's denying and hindering.
A strong, blocking aspect

because

Saturn is the greater malefic

as the two images illustrate:



sign-rulership-scheme-light-darkness-2.png



2201757443_91931b8866_b.jpg
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Literal numbers aren't exactly relevant here.
The point is, plenty of crimes, including but not limited to murder, are gotten away with.
Fixating on the numbers is non-astrological. This is an astrological thread. Please tie in the relevant astrology.
And, as you point out, some unsolved crimes do get solved after decades.
There have been people arrested for murder after decades of getting away with it
and likely believing they'd gotten away with it for good.
Most other crimes, in most countries, have statutes of limitations
that preclude being arrested decades after the fact
otherwise there could be even more kinds of crime
that lead to arrests decades later.

I wonder about those cold case solves.

Do they inevitably happen when something in the culprit's transits
or progressions echoes their transits at the time of the crime?
Did the original crime have all the right conditions, astrologically,
for getting away with it, and then progressions interfered? Something else?
It's rare/unusual to have moment of murder timed reliably for electional work
and
progressions in those cases are not calculable
Also rare to have RELIABLE time of birth for murderer or victim
and
Certainly many decades may pass - SATURN and TIME :smile:
before cold cases are solved
but it does happen
a recent case being
Remains of suspected victim of worst ever US serial killer IDENTIFIED
FORTY-FOUR YEARS after being found


"....Although now deceased
Little died in December in California
where he was serving a life sentence for multiple counts of murder
Samuel Little is considered prime suspect in death of Clara Birdlong..."
statement from the Jackson County Sheriff's Office said.


January 2021 detectives began working with Texas-based DNA research company Othram
to create a family tree for Jane Doe.Othram quickly identified a distant cousin of the victim
who put them in touch with her 93-year-old grandmother
who was originally from Leflore County.
She said her cousin, Clara Birdlong born 1933
went missing in the 1970s.
Another distant cousin said Ms Birdlong was a small woman
WITH A GOLD FRONT TOOTH and wore a wig.

VICTIMS SKELETAL REMAINS provided FORENSIC clues to appearance
so PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS provided the means to ID :smile:

but no reliable ASCENDANT
there is no date of birth for the victim currently available



90





Investigators then spoke to a woman in Leflore County
who said Ms Birdlong left in the 1970s
with a man who claimed he was heading to Florida.
She was never heard from again.
Little had confessed to killing 93 people between 1970 and 2005
with most of the slayings taking place in Florida
and southern California.

Little's date of birth: Friday June 7th 1940

Time of birth: UNKNOWN
Place of birth: Reynolds, Georgia, United States
Name at Birth: Samuel McDowel

.



 

waybread

Well-known member
I would look for favorable Saturn aspects. Saturn puts the brakes on in life, and when the brakes are released, people feel that they have more leeway.

I once had a coworker with a big Saturn trine. He got away with a lot of stuff that he shouldn't have.

Traditionally Mercury rules liars, tricksters, and thieves; but since Mercury also rules good communicative abilities, I'd look for how it is aspected.

A sextile aspect confers excitement. If other chart factors indicate someone Up To No Good, a sextile would probably push him/her into enjoying beating the system.

I note that all kinds of people do things they shouldn't, like thieves, not just notorious murderers.

There are probably some supportive fixed stars, as well.
 
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Osamenor

Staff member
I would look for favorable Saturn aspects. Saturn puts the brakes on in life, and when the brakes are released, people feel that they have more leeway.

I once had a coworker with a big Saturn trine. He got away with a lot of stuff.

We're talking about an event chart, not a natal chart. Presumably, your coworker's Saturn trine was in his natal chart?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I would look for favorable Saturn aspects.
Saturn puts the brakes on in life, and when the brakes are released, people feel that they have more leeway.
I once had a coworker with a big Saturn trine.
He got away with a lot of stuff that he shouldn't have.
Traditionally Mercury rules liars, tricksters, and thieves;
but since Mercury also rules good communicative abilities, I'd look for how it is aspected.
A sextile aspect confers excitement.
If other chart factors indicate someone Up To No Good,

a sextile would probably push him/her into enjoying beating the system.
I note that all kinds of people do things they shouldn't, like thieves, not just notorious murderers.

There are probably some supportive fixed stars, as well.
We're talking about an event chart, not a natal chart.

Presumably, your coworker's Saturn trine was in his natal chart?
also traditionally :smile:

Saturn is malefic....
....makes those born under him

concealing
deceitful
hypocritical.

Saturn controls secrets, strangulation....

Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
 

waybread

Well-known member
We're talking about an event chart, not a natal chart. Presumably, your coworker's Saturn trine was in his natal chart?

Oops, got it.

But I will partially stick to my point. I mean, many people are not actually tempted to do something really bad. Opportune moments can come and go without triggering an out-of-character action. I think the natal chart has to show some kind of proclivity to do something immoral/unethical before the person would sieze a moment when they might get away with something.

Then I suppose it's one thing to commit an actual crime, and another thing for someone to, say, cheat on a spouse believing it was true love and therefore justified; or say something rude to a neighbor who had it coming.

Lots of gray areas.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I wonder about those cold case solves.
SATURN is cold :smile:

and is also associated with TIME

Do they inevitably happen when something in the culprit's transits
or progressions echoes their transits at the time of the crime?
Did the original crime have all the right conditions, astrologically
for getting away with it, and then progressions interfered? Something else?
SATURN rules bone structure


In California
a couple finds a skeleton in a shallow grave under their house
a missing person report filed 14 years earlier
may have covered up a murder.
Skeleton Of Missing Person Found 14 Years Later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK1BCcLyRxk

and a search for a missing man
ends in the discovery of a cold blooded murder
A team of forensic scientists established the victims approximate TIME of death
after the skeleton of Chris Denoyer
was identified using dental records comparison
The suspected killer's car, when impounded by police
revealed dried blood
which was forensically examined using DNA technology
and matched Chris Denoyer
After 14 years "...getting away with it..."
the killer was tried and sentenced
Convicted killer Jackson Villarta won't see the light of day anytime soon.
The killer has been behind bars for more than two decades.
In 1984, Villarta, now 66, shot and killed his stepson Christopher Denoyer.
He then buried his stepson's body in a crawl space beneath their Salinas home on Navajo Drive.
It took investigators more than a decade to recover Denoyer's decayed body.
Villarta was convicted of second-degree murder in 2000
Tuesday's hearing was his third.

He was denied in 2009 and again in 2016.
While up for parole for the third time
the parole board denied a plea for freedom.
The Monterey County District Attorney's office said
Villarta will be eligible for an administrative review
and a subsequent hearing in 18 to 36 months


.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
And, as you point out, some unsolved crimes do get solved after decades.
A pensioner has been found guilty of the vicious rape and murder of a teenager nearly 50 years ago
in the oldest double jeopardy case in England and Wales
Now 74 and unwell, McGrory watched proceedings on a video link from his solicitor's office.
The judge ordered him to court to hear the verdicts
and he walked slowly into the dock on crutches.
When his barrister William Boyce KC told him the jury had reached a decision
he asked if the lawyer knew what it was. "..No.." said Mr Boyce.

"..Oh, fingers crossed, then.." replied McGrory. :)

A pensioner accused of raping and murdering a schoolgirl 47 years ago
was shaking with excitement on the night her body was found, a court heard.


There have been people arrested for murder after decades of getting away with it, and likely believing they'd gotten away with it for good. Most other crimes, in most countries, have statutes of limitations that preclude being arrested decades after the fact, otherwise there could be even more kinds of crime that lead to arrests decades later.
His was a rare retrial - and the oldest - after the scrapping of the ancient double jeopardy legal principle
which prevented a defendant being charged twice with the same crime.

The law was changed in 2003
to allow retrials of acquitted defendants if new and compelling evidence emerged

and the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) was convinced that each case was fair and in the public interest.

I wonder about those cold case solves. Do they inevitably happen when something in the culprit's transits or progressions echoes their transits at the time of the crime? Did the original crime have all the right conditions, astrologically, for getting away with it, and then progressions interfered? Something else?
3 March 2022
Dennis Mcgrory
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:15
Trial (Part Heard) - Prosecution Opening - 10:37
Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 11:22
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:50 - 11:40
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 11:55
Trial (Part Heard) - Prosecution Opening - 12:00
Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 12:20

Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 10:15 - 12:24

Murder Victim Discovered 2 June 1975
- TRANSITS 3 March 2022 trial halted McGrory ill
- 18 December 2022 trial resumed - McGrory found guilty
- McGrory remanded in custody for sentencing 13 January 2023

1671475227029.png



The new jury at Huntingdon Law Court saw photographs of McGrory
taken on his arrest a few hours after Jacqueline's murder.
They showed bruises on his lip and behind an ear, a long scratch on his neck
small scratches on his left wrist and right arm and bruising on his knuckles.

He claimed he had been attacked and beaten up by four strangers on the same night
and had not been to Jacqueline's home.
But the prosecution said they were injuries caused when his victim tried to fight him off

Justice finally caught up with McGrory after swabs from Jacqui’s body

produced a one-in-a-billion DNA match, jurors had been told


1671474331960.png
McGrory

You look at that story and you think

that there must be a few other old blokes who had trials before DNA science got good
who must be Googling "..Countries without extradition treaty with the UK.."


.
 
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