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Mundane Astrology Discuss the astrology of towns, cities, states, provinces, countries, empires, and the world in general.


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  #26  
Unread 06-07-2021, 12:30 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

waybread,

While the issues discussed have changed over the years, the issue of individual rights vs. government security has ALWAYS been with the US. The issue of slavery is a case in point: while people in the North part of the US soon decided that ALL people had individual rights from God, slave owners in the South part of the US depended on government to ensure that slaves would always be secured to them. What is NOT mentioned in today's public school history in the US is the GREAT amount of freedom free blacks had in the North to develop themselves as they chose: there were pastors, business men, and politicians who were free and influential in their communities. Slavery was ALWAYS an issue in the US since it went DIRECTLY against the principles in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was SO important in the US that eventually the US fought a WAR over it to WIPE IT OUT. NO OTHER COUNTRY felt so strongly about the issue of slavery that they thought it was important to go to war over. All of these are reasons for the prominence of Uranus (rebellion, freedom, security) in the house of relationships in the Cornwallis chart

It's also interesting to see transiting Neptune square Jupiter and Venus during the "Roaring 20s". The fantasy and escapism of Neptune square Jupiter very well matches the fantasies of wealth that bloomed and died during this time. The Great Depression was the "hangover" from the long party of the "head in the clouds" 20s.

Continuing to look at this,

Tim

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  #27  
Unread 06-07-2021, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
waybread,

While the issues discussed have changed over the years, the issue of individual rights vs. government security has ALWAYS been with the US. The issue of slavery is a case in point: while people in the North part of the US soon decided that ALL people had individual rights from God, slave owners in the South part of the US depended on government to ensure that slaves would always be secured to them. What is NOT mentioned in today's public school history in the US is the GREAT amount of freedom free blacks had in the North to develop themselves as they chose: there were pastors, business men, and politicians who were free and influential in their communities. Slavery was ALWAYS an issue in the US since it went DIRECTLY against the principles in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was SO important in the US that eventually the US fought a WAR over it to WIPE IT OUT. NO OTHER COUNTRY felt so strongly about the issue of slavery that they thought it was important to go to war over. All of these are reasons for the prominence of Uranus (rebellion, freedom, security) in the house of relationships in the Cornwallis chart

It's also interesting to see transiting Neptune square Jupiter and Venus during the "Roaring 20s". The fantasy and escapism of Neptune square Jupiter very well matches the fantasies of wealth that bloomed and died during this time. The Great Depression was the "hangover" from the long party of the "head in the clouds" 20s.

Continuing to look at this,

Tim
Have you used astrocartography for this? Curious, to know if you have?
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  #28  
Unread 06-08-2021, 03:38 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, I think you're re-inventing a fair bit of US history to fit your script. You've got a kind of Procrustean Bed into which facts get stretched or trimmed to fit.

And yes, I agree that the US is a Uranian country. But this can play out in multiple ways, as discussed in my previous posts.

So far as enslaved people were concerned, are you familiar with the infamous Dred Scott case of 1857?

Basically Scott was an enslaved man from the South, whose one-time master traveled extensively and took Scott to several states that abolished slavery. Scott claimed that living in a northern "free" state automatically granted him his freedom. His subsequent masters disagreed. Scott sued.

Scott's case eventually went to the Supreme Court, which ruled that (1) African Americans were not US citizens and had no rights as citizens to sue in a court of law. (2) Since slaves were legally defined as chattel property, the 5th Amendment protected slave holders' rights to keep African Americans enslaved regardless of the state or territory. (3) The Missouri Compromise separating free and slave states and territories was therefore declared unconstitutional.

The Dred Scott case infuriated abolitionists and was a major contributor to the Civil War.

[This material is all in Wikipedia and other basic history sources.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
waybread,

While the issues discussed have changed over the years, the issue of individual rights vs. government security has ALWAYS been with the US. The issue of slavery is a case in point: while people in the North part of the US soon decided that ALL people had individual rights from God, slave owners in the South part of the US depended on government to ensure that slaves would always be secured to them. What is NOT mentioned in today's public school history in the US is the GREAT amount of freedom free blacks had in the North to develop themselves as they chose: there were pastors, business men, and politicians who were free and influential in their communities.
Tim, there was also a sizeable population of free Blacks in the South, but their situation in both regions was precarious. They could be kidnapped and sold back into slavery.
https://uknowledge.uky.edu/upk_afric...3%20and%201850.

We just recently commemorated the centenary of the Tulsa, Oklahoma massacre of prosperous African Americans.

And don't forget Jim Crow laws. I grew up when the South was seriously segregated. Blacks faced all kinds of legal discrimination. This only began to change in the 1960s with the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act.

I grew up in a northern city where redlining was perfectly legal through the mid 1960s. Restrictive covenants excluding African Americans from subdivisions were perfectly legal. [See Lorraine Hansberry, A Raisin in the Sun, about a Black family in Chicago.]

Quote:
Slavery was ALWAYS an issue in the US since it went DIRECTLY against the principles in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was SO important in the US that eventually the US fought a WAR over it to WIPE IT OUT. NO OTHER COUNTRY felt so strongly about the issue of slavery that they thought it was important to go to war over. All of these are reasons for the prominence of Uranus (rebellion, freedom, security) in the house of relationships in the Cornwallis chart
Quite honestly, Tim, most Union soldiers did not believe they were fighting to give African Americans equal rights. They thought they were fighting to preserve the Union. Note that the Civil War began in 1861 was a response to the South's leaving the Union. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't written until 1862.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and the majority of Founding Fathers from the South lived and died as slave holders. You cannot just ignore this.

Quote:
It's also interesting to see transiting Neptune square Jupiter and Venus during the "Roaring 20s". The fantasy and escapism of Neptune square Jupiter very well matches the fantasies of wealth that bloomed and died during this time. The Great Depression was the "hangover" from the long party of the "head in the clouds" 20s.

Continuing to look at this,

Tim
Possibly-- I have Jupiter square Neptune natally, and am pretty careful with my cash.
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  #29  
Unread 06-08-2021, 04:47 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Just another note about the contradictory nature of southern founding fathers who were slave owners.

See my post #10 with two charts for the Bill of Rights, the second one looking notably Uranian.

James Madison (1751-1836) wrote much of the Constitution and Bill of Rights before becoming the 4th President

His chart: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Madison,_James

He also grew up on a Virginia plantation and inherited about 100 enslaved people at his father's deaths. He was a slave owner for the rest of his life. During Madison's lifetime, Virginia had a property requirement for voting, which was further restricted to white males.

During Madison's life, Virginia strongly restricted African Americans' ability to read and right. Gatherings for schools were illegal.
https://encyclopediavirginia.org/ent...n-in-virginia/

So it's pretty clear that what we think of today as freedom of expression and individual liberty was very different back then-- it was much more restrictive. It didn't mean freedom of speech for everyone.

But Madison was no doubt sincere. He had a close natal conjunction between Uranus and Mercury in the third house of communication, and Mercury-Uranus were also parallel within seconds.

Madison presided over the War of 1812, which convinced him and a lot of US citizens of the need for a strong centralized federal government for the purpose of national defense. [A belief shared by many conservatives today.]



A social safety net or protecting individual property rights were the last thing from anybody's mind re: centralizing federal authority.
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Last edited by waybread; 06-08-2021 at 04:50 AM.
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  #30  
Unread 06-08-2021, 01:11 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Waybread,

You are looking at the issue of Slavery from a 21rst Century point of view and anything that doesn't match up with present-day morality is bad in your eyes. You are also focusing only on the issues that show people behaving badly about slavery. As mentioned, you can also focus on how half the nation wanted to eliminate slavery and how white people were instrumental in the Underground Railroad and in general in resisting the spread of slavery into the new US territories which greatly reduced the spread of slavery. But aside from our disagreement on these points, my main point remains, Independence and Social Security IS a central issue with the US.

Also interesting in the Cornwallis US birth chart is Jupiter conjunct Venus in the House of Social Security. Whether it's people giving their personal money or people volunteering the government's money the issue of using vast wealth to help out those in society who need help is also a very American idea. Even the Jupiter conjunct Venus suggests both much wealth and being lucky in that wealth for the country as a whole.

At the time of the Civil War, two major transits going on in the Cornwallis chart were transiting Uranus going over the Descendant (suggesting a restructuring in the way the country dealt with "others") AND transiting Pluto squaring birth Pluto suggesting a major transformation resulting in some form of death and rebirth of the country.

Still looking,

Tim
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  #31  
Unread 06-08-2021, 04:04 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

We also celebrated D-Day, you know...the end to the most bloodiest war in modern History with millions killed around the world, including many black soldiers. Too bad this was not commemorated by the present fake President who chose to ignore the brave people who sacrificed their lives in order that we can enjoy the freedoms we currently enjoy.

Couple of other points which need correcting during the Mercury RX.

I realize the Marxist-Dems are attempting to re-write History with the 1619 project but facts and reality still do matter if you want to know the Truth.

Slavery did not begin in the U.S.A. It stretches way back to Mesopotamia (6800 B.C.) where the defeated enemies were kept as slaves. The Egyptian pharaohs enslaved the Israelites, the Greeks/Romans kept slaves as did much of the Arab world. European countries brought & sold slaves for hundreds of years and it was basically accepted.

Like Tim said, you cannot judge yesterday's History by today's standards.
In your country of Canada, the Native people were treated even worse than slaves. They had their land stolen from them, they were deliberately killed, the children were raped & tortured. They recently found a burial site with the bodies of over 215 children & they expect to find a lot more of these 'killing grounds'. Horrific and not as distant in the past as slavery in the U.S.

Again, Tim is right. There was ALWAYS a large movement in the country, led by religious people, who considered slavery an abomination and a sin against God. It was white people who helped slaves escape & who brought about its final end.

Finally, it wasn't just white people who owned slaves. There were many black people who owned plantations & kept slaves. In fact, VP K.Harris ancestors were slave owners in Jamaica. Are we to judge her for this the way you want to condemn the Founding Fathers when owning slaves was very common? Of course not. History needs to be studied with an objective eye in order to learn & to ensure that it is not repeated.

Slavery is related to the axis.
Slavery represented by the institutions, gov't and the 'powers that be'

The on-going political/social conflicts are due to the fact that the U.S.A. is experiencing it's return.



How Thousands of Indigenous Children Vanished in Canada
The discovery of the remains of 215 children at the site of a defunct boarding school in British Columbia has rekindled discussion of a sinister time in Canada痴 history.



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/07/w...l-schools.html



Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


We just recently commemorated the centenary of the Tulsa, Oklahoma massacre of prosperous African Americans.

Quite honestly, Tim, most Union soldiers did not believe they were fighting to give African Americans equal rights. They thought they were fighting to preserve the Union. Note that the Civil War began in 1861 was a response to the South's leaving the Union. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't written until 1862.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and the majority of Founding Fathers from the South lived and died as slave holders. You cannot just ignore this.

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  #32  
Unread 06-08-2021, 04:11 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

One final correction as the Civil War History is a particular hobby of mine.

The black soldiers who joined to fight did so to free the slaves. They were a very important part of the Northern Victory and to leave them out is wrong.

In July 1862, Congress passed a law permitting black men to enlist at a pay rate of $10 per month ($3 less than the pay of a white private). But Congress left it up to the president to determine the duties of black volunteers. Lincoln decided that any blacks enlisting into the army were to be used only as laborers and not trained as combat soldiers.

By the end of 1862, it was clear that the war was not going to end quickly. As this harsh reality began to sink in, the number of Northern white volunteers dropped considerably. Moreover, Lincoln realized that once the war ended and the Union was restored, slavery could never continue. As Frederick Douglass had argued all along, slavery was “the source and center of this gigantic rebellion.” For these and other reasons, Lincoln made a dramatic shift in Union war policy on January 1, 1863 when he announced the Emancipation Proclamation.

Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation liberated slaves in those areas still in rebellion. It went on to announce that free black men “will be received into the armed services of the United States....”

In the spring, the War Department organized the Bureau of Colored Troops. The bureau began a massive army recruitment program aimed at free blacks in the North and emancipated slaves in Union-held Southern territory. All the new regiments of U.S. Colored Troops were led by white officers, recruited from existing regular army units.



https://www.crf-usa.org/black-histor...-in-union-blue
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  #33  
Unread 06-08-2021, 07:15 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

I do believe that the pain/wounding of slavery is shown with Khiron in 4th in hard aspect to Sun.Mercury.Saturn. The issue can't seem to go away. I mean, enormous changes have taken place in the world & particularly the United States to create equality but it doesn't seem to matter. They are always talking about race/slavery as if the country cannot move on. Maybe reparations should be paid out....after all, Jews were rightfully given billions by the Germany gov't for what they did. Maybe if the U.S. gov't paid billions to the descendants of slavery, justice will finally be done & the entire issue can be put to bed.

TimW is absolutely correct that Sibley chart is when the nation was conceived but that's equivalent to when a baby draws its 1st breathe. That time is not recorded at that exact moment but imho that's when the baby was born. That's why I like the 1776 July 4th chart so much.

I mean, to each his own but looking at the most important event in U.S. (even more than Pearl Harbor as that not done on the 'homeland'.

9/11 has Pluto exact on the SagAC with Saturn on the DS. POWERFUL enemies trying to destroy the nation. (who did it & why is for another topic but just showing how pertinent the Sibly chart is on this great tragedy which changed the course of the country).



khiron passing through the 1st. A great wounding.

There are other aspects too but most important is the Saturn-Pluto opposition in the Sibly ascendant/descendant.


https://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cg...84.png&res=100



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nation:_USA_No.1
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  #34  
Unread 06-08-2021, 09:23 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

https://astrolibrary.org/interpretations/weak-earth/

I looked up no earth signs. Here is a link. How do you feel about a earth free chart for the US?
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  #35  
Unread 06-09-2021, 05:12 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, you are quite simply--and shockingly-- incorrect.

It is factually incorrect to state that "half the nation" opposed slavery on the eve of the Civil War. Typically the slave trade was outlawed in northern states, but the Dred Scott decision established the legality of enslavement in the North.

Please verify the dates by when slavery was truly abolished in the northern states. New York and New Jersey did not abolish slavery until 1799 and 1801, respectively--long after the end of the Revolutionary War. Maryland and Delaware remained slave states until the eve of the civil war. Slavery was legal in Utah and Spanish-influenced New Mexico territories by 1858. (Cf. also the conflict over "bleeding Kansas" territory.)

Presidents Buchanan and Pierce were northerners but southern sympathizers.

haven't been able to find on short notices figures for the percentage of northerners who were actually abolitionists, but the electoral map for the Lincoln-Douglas (plus two other major candidates, Breckenridge and Bell) election of 1860 is revealing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_U...ntial_election

Scroll down, and click on the map for election results by county. While the North went heavily for Lincoln, it was by no means a clean sweep. The map shows many "blue" counties in northern states who voted majority for Douglas. Douglas campaigned as an individual states' rights candidate. California and Oregon actually gave a lot of votes to Breckenridge, a southerner who fought for the Confederacy.

Am I mistaken, or did NYC and environs favour Douglas during this election? See especially the Douglas votes in Ohio and downstate Illinois--Lincoln's own home state.

Ironically, the Emancipation Proclamation of 1861-63 freed slaves in the Confederate-held states but did nothing for the estimated half-million slaves in the Union-controlled states of Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, and Maryland.

I

The Underground Railroad terminus was in Canada (and sometimes even Mexico)-- precisely so that escapees could not be kidnapped in a northern state and transported back into slavery in the South.

But yes-- slavery was bad and wrong.

I assume you agree.


Social security just isn't there in your chart, Tim. Talk about presentism in historical explanation! Social security didn't exist in the US until the FDR administration. Prior to some kind of national safety net, the indigent had to rely on family members, churches, poor houses, work houses, and simply shifting for themselves.

I think you're trying too hard to make a historical chart fit your presentist political ideology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Waybread,

You are looking at the issue of Slavery from a 21rst Century point of view and anything that doesn't match up with present-day morality is bad in your eyes. You are also focusing only on the issues that show people behaving badly about slavery. As mentioned, you can also focus on how half the nation wanted to eliminate slavery and how white people were instrumental in the Underground Railroad and in general in resisting the spread of slavery into the new US territories which greatly reduced the spread of slavery. But aside from our disagreement on these points, my main point remains, Independence and Social Security IS a central issue with the US.

Also interesting in the Cornwallis US birth chart is Jupiter conjunct Venus in the House of Social Security. Whether it's people giving their personal money or people volunteering the government's money the issue of using vast wealth to help out those in society who need help is also a very American idea. Even the Jupiter conjunct Venus suggests both much wealth and being lucky in that wealth for the country as a whole.

At the time of the Civil War, two major transits going on in the Cornwallis chart were transiting Uranus going over the Descendant (suggesting a restructuring in the way the country dealt with "others") AND transiting Pluto squaring birth Pluto suggesting a major transformation resulting in some form of death and rebirth of the country.

Still looking,

Tim
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Last edited by waybread; 06-09-2021 at 05:33 AM.
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  #36  
Unread 06-09-2021, 05:44 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Blackbery, just to set a few things straight:

Slavery itself is a 6th house matter-- but from the perspective of the master, not the enslaved people.

Nobody is claiming that slavery originated in the US, or that it was somehow limited to the US in the 19th century.

Democrats are not Marxists. Marxists have their own political parties.

It makes no sense to condemn Kamala Harris for whatever her ancestors did. It does make sense to analyze the beliefs and actions of people directly involved in the founding of the USA, as per the thread topic.

The number of people, white or Black involved in the Underground Railroad was very small, relative to the population.

Both the US and Canada have horrible histories of their treatment of Native Americans (called First Nations in Canada.) I believe you are referring to the residential schools scandal, which has been at the forefront of Canada's conscience for some time now. The deceased children were not massacred by shamefully neglected.

Canada, as you know, never broke away from Britain, so whatever can be gleaned from Tim's chart probably wouldn't apply to Canada.

I absolutely agree on the importance of recognizing the Black soldiers in the Civil War.

The correct spelling is "Sibly" chart [no letter e.] I see you have it both ways.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 06-09-2021, 01:19 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Waybread,

Social Security IS the eleventh house and the eleventh house is VERY emphasized in the Cornwallis chart. "Social" because it's an Air house and "Security" because its a Fixed house, combine the two and you get "Social Security". So Social causes are VERY important in the US and freeing slaves was one of the biggest of previous times. While we can disagree over the details of how much of the US was pro- and anti-slave, it WAS an important issue because of its social roots and eventually a Civil War WAS fought to END slavery, something NO OTHER country did. Even today the IDEA that someone is a "racist" is horrible to most people, which is why it's a VERY effective putdown to silence other ideas and points of view: simply call the person a "racist". The quest for "Social Justice" also mirrors this focus on "Social Security".

Looking at other times, in the transition from the 50s to the 60s and beyond, transiting Uranus was squaring the planets in the eleventh house, a fitting symbol of the social revolution going on at the time as an entire generation rebelled against the previous generation. The 60s generation became aware of the problems of the previous generation and made it their job to restructure society so as to bring a more stable, secure society that fixed the problems of the past.

Still looking,

Tim
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  #38  
Unread 06-10-2021, 03:17 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Hey, Tim-- so what source are you using to claim that the 11th house rules social security??

As you know, each house rules multiple topics; many of them unrelated. (For example, the 5th house ruling gambling on horse races and one's children, the 6th ruling illness, small animals, and slaves, and the 12th house ruling secrets and large animals like cattle.)

So it's really a stretch to say that the British surrender chart symbolizes a social safety net. It didn't exist at the time, nor for many decades thereafter. So clearly, in the interim, your 11th house has to stand for something else.

The plain traditional meanings of the 11th house are the house of friends and of one's hopes and wishes for the future. The latter meaning seems especially appropriate.

Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book (a modern text published by the AFA) provisionally gives social security to the 8th house.

The Skyscript primer on mundane astrology gives the following to the 11th house: "Parliament, especially the House of Commons. Town and County Councils and similar bodies. Friends of the nation. Legislation."

The 12th house probably comes the closest to social security, in containing "the welfare state," with the 6th ruling the national health service.
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html The 12th generally rules people who are misfortunate in some way, as well as institutions like hospitals and nursing homes.

This site http://astrology-world.com/houses-an...ane-astrology/ describes the 11th house as containing: "Allies of the country, institutions of the government such as local governments, senates, and other legislative bodies." It gives public health to the 6th house.

I could go on in this fashion.

As I've mentioned, I don't conflate planets, signs, and houses by-the-numbers, which you seem to do. (See Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky.) I can go into the reasons why not if it's of any interest. For starters, you've got Scorpio on the cusp of this chart's 11th house: so does that take us into 8th house/Pluto/Mars territory? But then with Leo on the 8th house cusp, are we looking at the sun in the 9th ruled by Venus?

You see? There's no end to the complications of conflating planets, signs, and houses.

In "conservative" astrology, houses do not take on qualities of the elements. Signs do, but not houses. Houses are angular, succedent, or cadent. They aren't earth, air, fire, or water: signs are.

Further, air is not social. Air is mental, even intellectual. (For a foundational modern astrology source on the elements, see Stephen Arroyo, Astrology, Pyschology, and the Four Elements.) The idea that air is social might come from Dane Rudhyar's evolutionary astrology: I'm not sure. Do you know?

Again, the Civil War was not declared to end slavery. It was declared to maintain the unity of the nation. A key issue in succession was states' rights vs. federal oversight, which was Stephen Douglas's platform. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't official until the US was well into the Civil War; and then it dealt with slaves in the Confederacy-- not in former slave states under Union army control. The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery wasn't ratified until 1865.

No doubt northern abolitionists believed they were fighting to end slavery, but this wasn't the primary reason why war was declared. The first battle was actually over control of Fort Sumter.

Also, Tim-- I don't know what kind of rarified social milieu you inhabit, but I've interacted with many white people who were perfectly OK with making racist remarks.

Surely we can do better.

I've explained in a previous post the differences and areas of overlap between social justice and social security. Many social justice issues have nothing to do with a social safety net. And most conservative elders want to keep their Medicare and SS entitlements. (Cf. also veterans' benefits.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Waybread,

Social Security IS the eleventh house and the eleventh house is VERY emphasized in the Cornwallis chart. "Social" because it's an Air house and "Security" because its a Fixed house, combine the two and you get "Social Security". So Social causes are VERY important in the US and freeing slaves was one of the biggest of previous times. While we can disagree over the details of how much of the US was pro- and anti-slave, it WAS an important issue because of its social roots and eventually a Civil War WAS fought to END slavery, something NO OTHER country did. Even today the IDEA that someone is a "racist" is horrible to most people, which is why it's a VERY effective putdown to silence other ideas and points of view: simply call the person a "racist". The quest for "Social Justice" also mirrors this focus on "Social Security".

Looking at other times, in the transition from the 50s to the 60s and beyond, transiting Uranus was squaring the planets in the eleventh house, a fitting symbol of the social revolution going on at the time as an entire generation rebelled against the previous generation. The 60s generation became aware of the problems of the previous generation and made it their job to restructure society so as to bring a more stable, secure society that fixed the problems of the past.

Still looking,

Tim
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Last edited by waybread; 06-10-2021 at 03:21 AM.
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, it suddenly occurred to me in a Uranian flash of insight, that maybe your Cornwallis surrender chart is actually showing the demise of the British army in the 13 colonies. It is probably less about the birth of the USA than it is a chart about a blow to British colonialism.

Why? Because Cornwallis was a military general. He wasn't King George III or his chief personal representative (like a Governor General,) nor was Cornwallis deputized as a lead diplomat by Parliament. The full terms of the handover of power didn't happen until September 3, 1983, at the signing of the Treaty of Paris.

The horoscope for this signing is at: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nation:_USA_No.13

Apparently a key early sticking point in these treaty negotiations was Britain not willing to grant American independence!! Who knew?

They had all kinds of major issues to work out, like the status of territories west of the 13 colonies, and the status of citizens who had remained loyal to Britain during the war.
https://www.history.com/topics/ameri...reaty-of-paris

So if we look at your Yorktown chart from a more astrologically conservative perspective, right away we notice the sun in the 10th house-- both symbolizing the monarch. But the sun closely conjuncts the south node and is in its fall in Libra. MC ruler Venus in Scorpio in the 11th has no essential dignity. The Scorpio moon in the 11th is in its fall and in the 29th degree. Jupiter conjunct the moon at 29 Scorpio also has no essential dignity. Mercury in Scorpio in the 11th has no essential dignity, and is just past its square with Mars, the planetary ruler of soldiers.

We could debate whether a planet in the 29th degree is weakened, but clearly it indicates an upcoming change of signs and with it, some kind of transition.

None of this looks like a rosy picture for a nation's birth date.

Uranus in the 7th precisely looks to me like a sudden upset military matters involving an enemy..
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Unread 06-10-2021, 05:17 AM
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An important difference between Sibly and Cornwallis is the Pluto return. In Sibly, it will happen in Capricorn, but in Cornwallis it's in Aquarius, conj Mars in the 2nd House.

Also, Cornwallis has H12 Saturn in Sagittarius, along with the Asc. In Sibly, Saturn is alone in Libra in H10.

There's a lot of Scorpio in the Cornwallis chart, none in the Sibly.

Last edited by david starling; 06-10-2021 at 05:43 AM.
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Unread 06-10-2021, 01:28 PM
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Pluto return

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
An important difference between Sibly and Cornwallis is the Pluto return. In Sibly, it will happen in Capricorn, but in Cornwallis it's in Aquarius, conj Mars in the 2nd House.

Also, Cornwallis has H12 Saturn in Sagittarius, along with the Asc. In Sibly, Saturn is alone in Libra in H10.

There's a lot of Scorpio in the Cornwallis chart, none in the Sibly.
David,

Yes, the Pluto return is MUCH different between the two charts. And in ANY chart based on the July 4 date there will be a difference between the Pluto return for that chart and the Cornwallis chart. Here, again, is where it gets interesting: in the Cornwallis chart the Pluto return is JUST BEGINNING while in the July 4 charts the Pluto return is ALMOST OVER.

If we use the July 4 date the Pluto is 27 degrees Capricorn so the Pluto return started in the US (using an 8 degree orb) on November 2018. A Pluto return is about death and rebirth: what was going on in the US in November of 2018? The usual back and forth of Republicans doing something and Dems declaring it the end of the world but no real problems: terrorism had been put down, many people were employed, and the border was being managed. Not exactly a time of "death and rebirth". Even later in the year (before the Pandemic) there weren't that many issues.

What about if we use the Cornwallis chart? In that chart Pluto is at 4 degrees Aquarius so the Pluto return started in the US (using an 8 degree orb) on December 2020. What was going on in the US in December of 2020? Republicans, for the first time ever, said that there were serious problems with the Presidential election, as people had been kept out of being able to monitor election counts and there was a wide use of unverifiable mail-in ballots. I emphasize Republicans because, up to now, while Republicans might not like the RESULT of an election, they had never before alleged widespread fraud. This led to a massive protest on January 6 at the same time the Senate, also for the first time ever, was discussing whether or not to certify the Presidential election. Since that time, people in the US have discovered that their new President has direct ties to China money through the President's son, that the Chinese most likely created Covid as a weaponized virus and it accidentally got loose, that the US was paying for China to weaponize the Covid virus, and that the President doesn't want to protect the US border at all. In addition, there have been attempts made to undermine police protection in cities resulting in millions of people being increasingly vulnerable to crime, at the same time while District Attorneys are refusing to prosecute criminals, and public officials are letting loose thousands of criminals in the streets. At the same time teachers in schools are teaching racial hatred of other people based on skin color. This is causing massive pressure on the social structure the US put in place to manage itself. THIS WILL result in the fundamental transformation of the US as people in the US struggle to figure out who they can trust in government and who needs to go at ALL levels of government.

And that REALLY feels like a Pluto return: the fundamental death and rebirth of the US as country.

Still looking,

Tim

P.S. For Waybread, the term "Social Security" for the description of a house comes from Stephen Arroyo, who uses it to explain how element and modality combine to form one energy/focus, in this case how air and fixity combine to form "social security". Chapter 7 from Arroyo's Chart Interpretation Handbook.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 06-10-2021 at 01:37 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2021, 02:28 PM
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Democrats believe the 2000 Election was stolen.

Democrats believe the 2016 Election was stolen.

Many Republicans, including Trump, believe Obama was a fraudulent President, with a name-change and a fake birth certificate. And that would mean our intelligence agencies were in on it, which goes beyond a biased vote-count.

The difference now, is that Republicans are refusing to accept the official results of an Election that followed all the rules as laid out by the Constitution. That included our Judiciary, which includes many Republicans, some of whom were Trump appointees, and Republican governors.

In all of the other cases, the losers conceded the Election, however grudgingly.

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Unread 06-10-2021, 03:54 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
waybread,

While the issues discussed have changed over the years, the issue of individual rights vs. government security has ALWAYS been with the US. The issue of slavery is a case in point: while people in the North part of the US soon decided that ALL people had individual rights from God, slave owners in the South part of the US depended on government to ensure that slaves would always be secured to them. What is NOT mentioned in today's public school history in the US is the GREAT amount of freedom free blacks had in the North to develop themselves as they chose: there were pastors, business men, and politicians who were free and influential in their communities. Slavery was ALWAYS an issue in the US since it went DIRECTLY against the principles in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was SO important in the US that eventually the US fought a WAR over it to WIPE IT OUT. NO OTHER COUNTRY felt so strongly about the issue of slavery that they thought it was important to go to war over. All of these are reasons for the prominence of Uranus (rebellion, freedom, security) in the house of relationships in the Cornwallis chart

It's also interesting to see transiting Neptune square Jupiter and Venus during the "Roaring 20s". The fantasy and escapism of Neptune square Jupiter very well matches the fantasies of wealth that bloomed and died during this time. The Great Depression was the "hangover" from the long party of the "head in the clouds" 20s.

Continuing to look at this,

Tim

You realize the bible condones slavery right?
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Blackbery, just to set a few things straight:

Slavery itself is a 6th house matter-- but from the perspective of the master, not the enslaved people.
I'm not quite understanding you. The 6th is house is ruled Virgo. Are you trying to say they are slave drivers or the slaves?
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

You realize that there is a great difference between the Old and New Testament, right?

If you believe that Master Jesus condoned the suffering of humans, including children, then you haven't understood His life and purpose.

The anti-slavery movement was a religious movement led largely by a William Wilberforce.
It wasn't Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or atheists who worked for decades to abolish slavery. It was Christians.

In the late 1700s, when William Wilberforce was a teenager, English traders raided the African coast on the Gulf of Guinea, captured between 35,000 and 50,000 Africans a year, shipped them across the Atlantic, and sold them into slavery. It was a profitable business that many powerful people had become dependent upon. One publicist for the West Indies trade wrote, "The impossibility of doing without slaves in the West Indies will always prevent this traffic being dropped. The necessity, the absolute necessity, then, of carrying it on, must, since there is no other, be its excuse."



Here's a good article to help you.



https://emergencenj.org/blog/2019/01...ondone-slavery


https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...lberforce.html



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You realize the bible condones slavery right?

Last edited by blackbery; 06-10-2021 at 04:50 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2021, 09:29 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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England outlawed the slave trade in 1807 throughout the British Empire.

It outlawed the institution of slavery itself in 1833.
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, with respect, it's going to be difficult to have an intelligent mundane astrology discussion if you pull in discredited conspiracy theories.

There were something like 60 legal challenges to the 2020 election results in various jurisdictions. These were filed in local courts on up to the SCOTUS. Many of the judges were Republicans. Some were appointed by Trump himself. All of these cases were dismissed, mostly for lack of evidence but some for lack of standing (which one would think a smart lawyer like Ted Cruz would understand.)

Simply because a lot of gullible people were coached by a charismatic president and rightwing media to believe the election was stolen does not mean that it was. It means that gutless Republican leaders who knew better (like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham) had a moral obligation to stand up to the falsehoods and to tell the truth.

But we all know that these "leaders" were scared spitless by the Trump hydra.

Rightwingers also conveniently ignore that several "red" states that went for Trump had the identical election procedures as states that the rightwingers contested. Also that voting procedures in Michigan were crafted by the Republican-controlled legislature. And so on.

To call the January 6 attack on the Capitol building a mere "protest" is a shocking denial of what actually happened. Rightwingers sure weren't describing the Portland and BLM "protests" in that fashion.

Nobody thinks China has the United States' best interests at heart. Certainly not Biden. Don't forget his service in the Senate and as VP. And it's worse than most people realize. China has bought up mineral, timber, and water rights around the globe. They control the majority of several key strategic industries. This process was underway long before Biden's election, under both Republican and Democratic administrations.

We all also know that Trump was in Vladimir Putin's pocket. This probably relates to Trump's verified business debts to Russian mobsters, but possibly also to compromising videos from Trump's Moscow beauty pageant days.

I find it shocking that white people are all too ready to lecture visible minorities about the need to bury their histories and present inequalities in the name of a white-scripted common "unity." It's like telling minorities to "put up and shut up."

Yes, Biden cares about the US-Mexico border. Probably you're aware of US legislation and international treaties on refugee claimants. It's up to Congress to pass new immigration laws, not the President.

Tim, I could go on in this fashion about the rest of your political opinions, but maybe we should focus on the OP topic.

Obviously there are multiple candidate charts for the birth of the US. The question is, are any of them really radical? And this does not mean rewriting history to suit a contemporary political ideology. It means looking for specific dates of major events.

Such as: the onset of two world wars, the Civil War, dates of origination or passage of key legislation, key inventions, and so on.

Any of these charts is arguably an important "birth date" for the US:

1. Declaration of Independence
2. British surrender at Yorktown
3. Treaty of Paris
4. Constitution: origination and/or final ratification (esp. re: the presidency)
5. Bill of Rights: origination and/or final ratification

What would be interesting would be to compare these charts through time.
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Unread 06-11-2021, 05:45 AM
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In characterizing the United States as it developed over the Centuries, Neptune in Libra makes more sense than Neptune in Virgo.

Using the Cornwallis Chart, the U.S. was having its Neptune Return when the Allies won WWII.

The music and clothing styles changed, and the Civil Rights Movement got under way.

Last edited by david starling; 06-11-2021 at 06:01 AM.
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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I'm not quite understanding you. The 6th is house is ruled Virgo. Are you trying to say they are slave drivers or the slaves?
As I explained to Tim in a recent post, signs do not rule houses. Signs and houses are different. Some modern astrologers adopted a simplistic by-the-numbers approach to conflating planets, signs, and houses. Others have not.

The modern astrology I practice is methodologically conservative, with respect for the tradition that preceded it. I detach signs and houses.

See Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

The 6th house rules (poor) health, small animals, servants and slaves (from the master's perspective.) Today it makes more sense to say that the 6th governs the principle of service to others. It is a cadent house. In mundane astrology, it would include public health.

Virgo is a mutable earth sign, ruled by Mercury. It has the quality of a kind of perfectionism or improvement quest, and a desire to be helpful in practical ways. It is one of the traditionally "barren" signs.
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Unread 06-11-2021, 05:53 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, thanks for the Arroyo reference. Most of my astrology books are still packed from last summer's house move, but I'll see if I can find my copy.
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