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Horary Astrology Ask and answer any horary questions, and discuss theory and technique. Please post a chart of the time, date, and place you asked the question. Please do not ask the same question repeatedly, hoping for a different result: horary works best when you ask the question ONCE and then interpret the chart that results from when the question FIRST came into your mind. Horary forums are ONLY for discussion of horary charts and techniques.


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  #26  
Unread 05-28-2020, 09:06 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Re: Is she lying

Well sheís a pathological or compulsive liar then

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  #27  
Unread 05-28-2020, 09:20 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

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Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
Well sheís a pathological or compulsive liar then


But somewhere this lying and deception should be showing up. But I don't see it.
I'm completely baffled.
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  #28  
Unread 05-29-2020, 02:38 AM
ameliaastrology ameliaastrology is offline
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Re: Is she lying

A fixed sign in an angular house does not lie.

Lord 3 Mars is a mutable sign, not a fixed sign.
Lord 3 is in a succedent house.
Also, only two of the angles of the chart are fixed. At best half-true what she said.

Mars is dignified only by triplicity - not sufficiently dignified at all.

The only testimony that she is not lying: really only the moon is a fixed sign in an angular house. The overall judgment should be she is.
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  #29  
Unread 05-29-2020, 09:46 AM
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Re: Is she lying

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Just to clarify because I am not sure this exactly fits the story around the chart:
MŁnchausen syndrome is when someone lies about their being ill, rather than someone else.

MŁnchausen syndrome by proxy is when they harm someone else so they can "rescue" the person they are harming.
Yes I have heard of Munchausen by proxy but I wasn't trying to be technically correct, but just to give the general name of the disease to show that it was possible. I gave an interpretation clearly showing that I understood the question.
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  #30  
Unread 05-29-2020, 07:04 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

I did some research on "lying" today, and added some asteroids to the chart.
Trying to resolve in my own mind where I erred.
Some very interesting points popped up.
As soon as I have a chance I'll post them, hopefully today.

[Deleted reference to post that has been deleted for reasons given below. - Moderator]

Last edited by Osamenor; 05-30-2020 at 06:19 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 05-30-2020, 08:58 AM
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Re: Is she lying

One of the problems with this section, and one of the reasons I generally don't post here anymore is that the chart is provided by the user making the thread, and thus under no control from the person who evaluates the chart.

- The chart has an early Ascendant.

- The significators don't really make much sense.

- Op hasn't really explained the context of why the question was asked.

Thus you have no idea on whether the time the chart was made was for the time HKK thought of the question, or whether at the time of asking he wanted to know something else. You also have no idea whether Hkk has any real interest in the question, or weather he is just asking for the sake of asking (perhaps for practice). You don't even know if he asked the question multiple times and this one isn't the original.

*I also don't favour quadrant style houses for high latitudes, particularly when the MC is less than 60 degrees in distance from the Ascendant. This however is a personal view only.*

When charts make no sense, and the horary is asked for free (costs nothing to the poster), most of the times it is because the question is not important to begin with.
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  #32  
Unread 05-30-2020, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
One of the problems with this section, and one of the reasons I generally don't post here anymore is that the chart is provided by the user making the thread, and thus under no control from the person who evaluates the chart.

- The chart has an early Ascendant.

- The significators don't really make much sense.

- Op hasn't really explained the context of why the question was asked.

Thus you have no idea on whether the time the chart was made was for the time HKK thought of the question, or whether at the time of asking he wanted to know something else. You also have no idea whether Hkk has any real interest in the question, or weather he is just asking for the sake of asking (perhaps for practice). You don't even know if he asked the question multiple times and this one isn't the original.

*I also don't favour quadrant style houses for high latitudes, particularly when the MC is less than 60 degrees in distance from the Ascendant. This however is a personal view only.*

When charts make no sense, and the horary is asked for free (costs nothing to the poster), most of the times it is because the question is not important to begin with.
Hi Dirius

Thanks for looking

Thinking about it, I have asked the question in my head many times.

Brief Background behind all this: I have been suspecting my neighbour has been lying a lot as her story changes every time she tell me things in general. Not just this but incidents and timeís where things just donít add up. Anyway lately she has said her mom was in hospital with Cancer. They had taken her in as she was having pains with her cancer again. Then recently she said she was in a hospice. In conversation I got the hospice name and area. Thereís only one in that area.
What I did was call that hospice and ask for the neighbours mother by saying I was the neighbour i.e the daughter. The hospice said there is no such person there. The mother has no other names. In convo I got this out that neighbour too.

Now as I feel the neighbour is a liar other things that I have suspected have been confirmed too. She claims to work in radio for a large company. She said she worked in one area and now in another and confirmed by bragging about the radio station. I called them again this morning. There is no one and never has been anyone working there with that name.
So whatís scary is I donít really know my neighbour at all and sheís fooled the street we live on. I feel we are being conned. Itís like fraud to me.
Anyway dirius if Iím honest and thinking about it Iíve had my suspicions for a while so I probable have asked this question in my head before. And when I asked last was the time I put the horary up. I wasnít sure if that makes a difference? Would be great to know if it does.
I do care thatís sheís lying as I donít like things being lied about like that. Why lie? Why lie about any of it. Itís a cruel nasty way of trying to get attention of that is the case. I donít know 🤷🏻*♀️ all I know is that it has been lies. Iíve had it confirmed.
Iím a she by the way. Not a he. Lol I know you canít tell from name hkk.
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  #33  
Unread 05-30-2020, 09:24 AM
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Re: Is she lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post

Anyway dirius if Iím honest and thinking about it Iíve had my suspicions for a while so I probable have asked this question in my head before. And when I asked last was the time I put the horary up. I wasnít sure if that makes a difference? Would be great to know if it does.
I do care thatís sheís lying as I donít like things being lied about like that. Why lie? Why lie about any of it. Itís a cruel nasty way of trying to get attention of that is the case. I donít know 🤷🏻*♀️ all I know is that it has been lies. Iíve had it confirmed.
Iím a she by the way. Not a he. Lol I know you canít tell from name hkk.

It could - this is why casting charts for self questions is not recommended.
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  #34  
Unread 05-30-2020, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
It could - this is why casting charts for self questions is not recommended.
Self questions- As in the my thoughts of her lying Ďselfí or I shouldíve got someone else to cast the chart?
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  #35  
Unread 05-30-2020, 02:46 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

In my original posting I gave a negative interpretation, in the sense that the neighbour was not lying, but telling the truth. So what went wrong?
So, digging deeper here are some of the further considerations that I came up with.

As others mentioned, the ascendent on the chart is at one degree, which normally indicates it's too early to judge, we don't have all the information yet, best not to judge the chart.
In addition, south node is by the ascendent, as well as Saturn in first house.
And, moon separates from an opposition to ascendent ruler Saturn, retrograde in the first.

According to Ivy Goldstein Jacobson in her book Horary Astrology, the gossip is true if the cusp or ruler of the angles or the 4th house is in a fixed sign.
- The neighbour is the 3rd house, cardinal sign Aries on the cusp. (so, not true)
- Ruler of the 3rd is mars in mutable pisces. (not true)
- The ascendent/descendent axis is also in cardinal signs. (not true)
- However, the 3 rulers involved are all in fixed signs: saturn, Uranus, moon. (true)
- The midheaven/IC axis is in fixed signs. (true)
- Neither of the MH/IC rulers (mars, Venus) is in fixed signs. (not true)
- The 4th house is in a fixed sign, its ruler Venus is not. (not true)

So this is a little of a mixed bag, although the Not true outweighs the True.

The rumour will be contradicted (that is, it will be proven false) if moon is in the 8th house, which it is. (This is because in the 8th house it upsets the report of the 3rd house of gossip.)
The rumour will come to nothing if the moon is decreasing in light in the 8th, which it is.

Sun in the neighbour's 3rd house approaches a square with mars, who is ruler of the neighbour. So, she contradicts what she says.

Moon separates from an opposition to the ascendent ruler and applies to sextile with Venus retrograde in the neighbour's 4th house.
Moon trines Chiron on the cusp of the 3rd, which is the neighbour.

Who is the neighbour's mother?
There is a lot of debate on which house represents the mother and which the father.

I chose the 4th for the mother, based on its traditional role in cancer as nurturer and home.
The 4th from the neighbour 3rd is the radical 6th, with Venus on the cusp, ruled by mercury, and holding mercury conjunct north node.

If we instead use the 10th house, which was suggested above, the 10th from the neighbour 3rd is the radical 12th, ruled by sagittarius. Ruler of the 12th Jupiter is retrograde and in its fall, although it is in its natural house (12th ruled by pisces). Jupiter is in the ascendent and approaches a conjunction with Saturn, ascendent ruler.

The mother supposedly is in a hospice (so 12th of hospitals would be appropriate here) and suffering from bone cancer (Jupiter traditional significator of cancer, in Capricorn who rules the bones, so again appropriate).
But why would the mother be approaching the querent's ruler???

Finally, I recalculated the chart, inserting some asteroids I thought could be helpful.
Bilk, Veritas, Swindle, Lie.

Bilk is exactly inconjunct Venus (on the cusp of the 6th house, and would be the mother if we use 4th as her house).

Veritas sextiles neptune. Truth and falsehood, not an easy match!

Swindle squares mercury and North Node in the 6th ( if the mother is here, it might give us a clue). At any rate, swindle square mercury is indicative of lies.
However, Swindle is in the querent's 8th house (opposing her 2nd of money).
In addition, the ruler of the neighbour is mars in the 2nd, which is the querent's money house. In addition to this, Swindle trines Jupiter, ruler of the querent's 12th, and approaching the querent's ruler Saturn.
Is this the reason behind all this story playing, is the neighbour trying to extract money from the querent?

Lie is conjunct mercury, quite telling in itself.

So, what is the verdict here?

Ps. one last note, why should one not cast a chart for self questions? I would think they would be perfectly valid, if they follow the rules, and can be very helpful.
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  #36  
Unread 05-30-2020, 02:50 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

Here is the chart with asteroids inserted.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2020-05-30 at 15.59.23.jpg (44.0 KB, 2 views)
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  #37  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:11 PM
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Re: Is she lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Ps. one last note, why should one not cast a chart for self questions? I would think they would be perfectly valid, if they follow the rules, and can be very helpful.
For 3 reasons:

First you will usually be aware of planetary location in your time zone, and you may sometimes enter this unconcious bias in which you just happen to ask the question at a the right time, which begs the question: is the chart really favourable? or did you ask at the time in which the chart would come up favourable?

Second, you can't really be objective about your own chart; in some charts this doesn't matter because the outcome is what it is, but in others in which you are hoping for a desired outcome, you'll unintentionally try to "bend" the reading to your liking.

Third, because knowing that for whatever issue you may encounter in your life, you can cast an horary chart, you'll end up mass producing charts just because you know you can do it. Asking questions multiple times, or simply asking stuff that isn't really important to you will usually net unreliable charts.

PS: don't get me wrong, I sometimes do it to - but its a little addiction every horary user succumbs to eventually which requires some restraint. The more you use horary, the less reliable it becomes. Save it for important issues.
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Last edited by Dirius; 05-30-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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  #38  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:43 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Smile Re: Is she lying

Well, for the first one, I'm not that aware, not sure how many are, of the planetary locations, and when it would be better to ask or not to ask a question.

Second point, quite valid. In fact during our corona crisis here I had some critical charts that I actually asked the forum to help me with, because I didn't trust my own analysis to be objective. And they were very helpful.
But on questions that aren't heavy weight, I will do it for myself.

Third, another valid point. When you have something that is pressuring you, and is front runner in your mind, you will probably tend to do this. Especially now that it is so easy with the computer programs.
In theory of course, the answer should always be the same if the chart is valid to be judged.
Sometimes I've done this, as a test, on purpose, to see if the results are consistent. And often they are.

What I thoroughly agree with, that you wrote a while back, is that we don't know always if the chart really is valid, we don't know what provoked the question in the querent's mind. Or if they are just slapping down charts any old time. And that is a problem.

Thanks to the reply to this.

Now, what about the rest of my post?
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  #39  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
In my original posting I gave a negative interpretation, in the sense that the neighbour was not lying, but telling the truth. So what went wrong?
So, digging deeper here are some of the further considerations that I came up with.

As others mentioned, the ascendent on the chart is at one degree, which normally indicates it's too early to judge, we don't have all the information yet, best not to judge the chart.
In addition, south node is by the ascendent, as well as Saturn in first house.
And, moon separates from an opposition to ascendent ruler Saturn, retrograde in the first.

According to Ivy Goldstein Jacobson in her book Horary Astrology, the gossip is true if the cusp or ruler of the angles or the 4th house is in a fixed sign.
- The neighbour is the 3rd house, cardinal sign Aries on the cusp. (so, not true)
- Ruler of the 3rd is mars in mutable pisces. (not true)
- The ascendent/descendent axis is also in cardinal signs. (not true)
- However, the 3 rulers involved are all in fixed signs: saturn, Uranus, moon. (true)
- The midheaven/IC axis is in fixed signs. (true)
- Neither of the MH/IC rulers (mars, Venus) is in fixed signs. (not true)
- The 4th house is in a fixed sign, its ruler Venus is not. (not true)

So this is a little of a mixed bag, although the Not true outweighs the True.

The rumour will be contradicted (that is, it will be proven false) if moon is in the 8th house, which it is. (This is because in the 8th house it upsets the report of the 3rd house of gossip.)
The rumour will come to nothing if the moon is decreasing in light in the 8th, which it is.

Sun in the neighbour's 3rd house approaches a square with mars, who is ruler of the neighbour. So, she contradicts what she says.

Moon separates from an opposition to the ascendent ruler and applies to sextile with Venus retrograde in the neighbour's 4th house.
Moon trines Chiron on the cusp of the 3rd, which is the neighbour.

Who is the neighbour's mother?
There is a lot of debate on which house represents the mother and which the father.

I chose the 4th for the mother, based on its traditional role in cancer as nurturer and home.
The 4th from the neighbour 3rd is the radical 6th, with Venus on the cusp, ruled by mercury, and holding mercury conjunct north node.

If we instead use the 10th house, which was suggested above, the 10th from the neighbour 3rd is the radical 12th, ruled by sagittarius. Ruler of the 12th Jupiter is retrograde and in its fall, although it is in its natural house (12th ruled by pisces). Jupiter is in the ascendent and approaches a conjunction with Saturn, ascendent ruler.

The mother supposedly is in a hospice (so 12th of hospitals would be appropriate here) and suffering from bone cancer (Jupiter traditional significator of cancer, in Capricorn who rules the bones, so again appropriate).
But why would the mother be approaching the querent's ruler???

Finally, I recalculated the chart, inserting some asteroids I thought could be helpful.
Bilk, Veritas, Swindle, Lie.

Bilk is exactly inconjunct Venus (on the cusp of the 6th house, and would be the mother if we use 4th as her house).

Veritas sextiles neptune. Truth and falsehood, not an easy match!

Swindle squares mercury and North Node in the 6th ( if the mother is here, it might give us a clue). At any rate, swindle square mercury is indicative of lies.
However, Swindle is in the querent's 8th house (opposing her 2nd of money).
In addition, the ruler of the neighbour is mars in the 2nd, which is the querent's money house. In addition to this, Swindle trines Jupiter, ruler of the querent's 12th, and approaching the querent's ruler Saturn.
Is this the reason behind all this story playing, is the neighbour trying to extract money from the querent?

Lie is conjunct mercury, quite telling in itself.

So, what is the verdict here?

Ps. one last note, why should one not cast a chart for self questions? I would think they would be perfectly valid, if they follow the rules, and can be very helpful.
Omg! I need to say this quickly as Iím having a barbecue and being anti-social right now but will be back late tonight to expand maybe if I need to.

Thank you Elanaj for your detailed insights here. You have been so helpful and caring looking Into this for me.
So you have made a point here and when I read and re-read your post o thought who is the querent? Thatís me right? The person asking the question. So why would the neighbour wanna swindle money out of me. And I couldnít concentrate when I read it hence the anti social attack own barbecue.
Anyway, then it dawned on me omg!! Iím sitting in the garden and I looked at my fence. We had our fences done last month and the neighbour had to pay half towards. She didnít. She paid a very small amount towards it and said she will pay in bits. Just after this her mother is now Iím a hospice!!!!
This could be the reason....oh my!
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  #40  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:54 PM
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Re: Is she lying

However I just wanted to add that this reason can only be the one above as I have mentioned but why lie in the first place before the fence scenario. She was saying her mom was ill before. The hospice scenario happened after the fencing and for her to pay half towards it.
I think she hurt her mom. At some point we heard shouting and it was the neighbour really laying into her mother. Now her moms not here. She must have gone back to her own place. Sheís been very nasty to her mom in the past too. Really laying Into her, shouting and stalking viciously. So the rest is me guessing. Has she fallen out with her mom and now her lies are getting bigger and bigger. Letís see what happens as at some point there needs to be a conclusion to her lies.
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  #41  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:56 PM
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Re: Is she lying

Just to confirm - with this issue I have asked my self before the horary but when I did the horary it was more in my head. To confirm I havenít done a horary on this up until I posted the chart on here.
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  #42  
Unread 05-30-2020, 03:57 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

Bingo!
Your home is the 4th. Uranus is sitting there, who just happens to rule your 2nd of money, so that is where you money is going.
The ruler of the 4th is Venus, who just happens to be inconjunct Bilk in the first house, you!
So it's all becoming clearer.
So where is Venus? On the cusp of HER 4th, so it isn't her mother, it's her house!
Also, Bilk is very close in the first house to Veritas, who sextiles Neptune (in her 12th).
So Bilk is cleverly blending itself with Veritas, Neptune weaving its web of deception, presented to the ascendent, you. Part of her story is true, if I recall correctly, in that her mother has a health problem? The best lies are those with some connection to the truth.
And finally, your neighbour is the 3rd house, so her money 2nd is.... your 4th!
So that's what it's all about !
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Unread 05-30-2020, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Bingo!
Your home is the 4th. Uranus is sitting there, who just happens to rule your 2nd of money, so that is where you money is going.
The ruler of the 4th is Venus, who just happens to be inconjunct Bilk in the first house, you!
So it's all becoming clearer.
So where is Venus? On the cusp of HER 4th, so it isn't her mother, it's her house!
Also, Bilk is very close in the first house to Veritas, who sextiles Neptune (in her 12th).
So Bilk is cleverly blending itself with Veritas, Neptune weaving its web of deception, presented to the ascendent, you. Part of her story is true, if I recall correctly, in that her mother has a health problem? The best lies are those with some connection to the truth.
And finally, your neighbour is the 3rd house, so her money 2nd is.... your 4th!
So that's what it's all about !
Thanks 😊

I never mentioned her mother having a health condition however as her mother is elderly thereís always issues with that like arthritis etc etc. Anyway thatís madness that someone would lie to that extent!!
Well that clears up the mystery anyway with the way the horary was looking before. Quite a deep analysis. I will need to sit down later on and read all these interpretations to learn. Wow weeee absolute madness!!

Thanks again elanaj - you didnít give up- resilience 🌈🌈😊😊
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  #44  
Unread 05-30-2020, 06:22 PM
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Re: Is she lying

All,

I have deleted MANY non-astrological posts and attacks in this thread. Against the rules on both counts. The last few posts HAVE followed the rules, so this thread may continue, but the guilty parties know who they are. Keeping an eye on this.

Warning,
Osamenor
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  #45  
Unread 05-30-2020, 07:25 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
All,

I have deleted MANY non-astrological posts and attacks in this thread. Against the rules on both counts. The last few posts HAVE followed the rules, so this thread may continue, but the guilty parties know who they are. Keeping an eye on this.

Warning,
Osamenor

That's ok, we can always do a horary to identify the culprits!

(Joking!!!)
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  #46  
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:43 AM
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Re: Is she lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Now, what about the rest of my post?
I think the technique was flawless. I'm just not sure if that is the correct technique. This particular form of delineation is mostly used for messages or rumors, to see if the information is truthful, when they have no particular person attached to the message. I'm not sure if it applies to a direct statement from someone. I also wouldn't use the dignity/debility method which was thrown around, which is usually desgined to determine someone's credibility in some charts.
--
--
--
I think the delineation is more simple, and Ukpoohbear was correct in her method, just had one mistake which Illenek pointed out to her.

The question can be taken as:"Is my neighbor's mom ill?"

Neighbor is 3rd house (Aries-> Mars).
Her mom is the 10th from the 3rd, the 12th. (Sagittarius -> Jupiter).

Mars being in Jupiter's sign confirms this (Mars is concerned about Jupiter), also showing reception between them.

Jupiter is in his fall and unwell. So yeah, she is ill. Whether she was at the hospital at some point, or at her daughter's, etc. are just unimportant variables.
--
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Last edited by Dirius; 05-31-2020 at 08:45 AM.
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  #47  
Unread 05-31-2020, 09:10 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is she lying

That doesn't seem to be what the OP wanted to know, though.
She wanted to know about the truth of what was being said to her.
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  #48  
Unread 05-31-2020, 09:38 AM
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Dirius Dirius is offline
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Re: Is she lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
That doesn't seem to be what the OP wanted to know, though.
She wanted to know about the truth of what was being said to her.
True, if the querent is thinking about her neighbor's credibility and only that. But if she was thinking on whether what her neighbor said is what happened, there is no reason not to look at the event the information is conveying. What the querent wants to know is what actually happened.
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