Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Traditional Astrology

Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 12-11-2019, 12:52 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

For those exploring concept of "essential dignities" in astrology
looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 12-11-2019, 08:58 PM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 294
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
For those exploring concept of "essential dignities" in astrology
looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY

Hi JUPITERASC,

There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.

Sun is exalted in Aries because of Spring.

Sun is in fall in Libra because of Fall. 'Tis the Season.

Every body is exalted in the sign it is for similar reasons.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-23-2020 at 01:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 12-11-2019, 09:33 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi JUPITERASC,

Can you at least summarize? Not everyone can afford the luxury of wasting an hour and 40 minutes of their life on a hack video.
There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.
It's not my fault the silly Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are domiciled where they are.
It's not my fault the idiot Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are exalted where they are, and as a consequence of the reason why they're exalted, they're in fall in the opposite sign.
Then the moronic Greeks were stupid enough to thin that if a body is in fall in the sign opposite exaltation a body must be "harmed" by being opposite it's domicile.
It's not my fault people are dumb enough to drink their Kool-aid.
There's a reason why Sun is exalted in Aries. Would you like to guess why?
I'll give you a hint: something happens in March. Yeah, it has to do with Spring.
Would you like to guess why Sun is in fall in Libra?
I'll give you a hint: what happens 6 months/signs after Aries?
Yeah, it's Fall. 'Tis the Season.
Every body is exalted in the sign it is for similar reasons.
Still waiting for you to post even one chart proving Sun is in detriment in Aquarius.
Are you going to do that while we're all still young, or do you plan on waiting until we're all dead?
depends how long you personally require to lern the orbits of the planets

i.e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Hi petosiris,
I never said anything about Jupiter, other than Jupiter spends
~1 month in a sign.
Siriusly
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Hi petosiris,
It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs,
on the contrary
Jupiter takes approximately a year to traverse EACH sign
AND NOT 'a year to traverse the signs'
i.e. and I quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post


It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs,
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

so he's in each sign for about a month (more if he's slow or retrograde).
WRONG
Jupiter spends approximately ONE YEAR IN EACH SIGN
fortunately ours is a learning forum
and petosiris has corrected your erroneous information as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Dude, the Sun travels 360į in a year not a day,

and Jupiter in 12 years, not 1 year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi petosiris,

If you read Morinus, he touches on that.

I can't remember where I read about it, but two men were born in London at either identical birth times or within a minute or two of each other.

One became king of Britain and the other an industrial magnate, that is, the king or captain of his industry.

That's pretty weird, but it also validates astrology.

It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs, so he's in each sign for about a month (more if he's slow or retrograde). That means a lot of people will be born with Saturn and Jupiter in the same signs. The difference will be the inferiors, Sun, Moon, Asc, MC and Mars of course.

I'd bet if you found similar charts, those people are largely politicians, CEOs, general officers in the military, presidents of business, civic or community groups, or leading scientists or researchers in their fields as dictated by the chart.

Even if not, they'd still have some success. They might not be a CEO, but they might be a plant manager or other high level manager or executive or shop foreman/supervisor or some other leadership capacity in their area.

Anyway, don't be shocked if you find more charts that are similar.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 12-11-2019, 09:41 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Can someone show me
how Carole King
was harmed?



She's 75 and still writing songs, still performing in public and on TV and not in the poor-house.

I'm not seeing
how her life
is a Greek tragedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

In case you didn't know, H5 is the artsy house and it also trines Ascendant.
in case you did not know, House Five Significations include:
Love affairs, romance, lovemaking, sex.
If afflicted, promiscuity, sexual inhibition, immorality
overindulgence
and
scandals.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h5.html

The acute probably already noted CAROLE KING has AQUARIUS SUN FIFTH HOUSE

Carole King may have "had plenty of money"
however
Carole King’s husbands/relationships over decades
led from romance to tragedy.

In Goffin's case, it was his use of LSD.
King leaves out his supposed affairs.

Carole King divorced husband No. 2, bass player Charles Larkey
after two kids and six years of marriage.
Most of Carole King’s husbands are still alive
but not Rick Evers, struggling musician
who became Carole King's third husband.

Rick Evers died from an overdose of cocaine
at a shooting gallery in Los Angeles in 1978
leaving King a widow at age 36.

Carole King slow to recognize the red flags
in Evers’ increasingly possessive, paranoid behavior
reveals
1978, when married and back in L.A., Laurel Canyon
Evers slugged her in the jaw without any warning.

and unfortunately

This soon became a pattern:
While she was lying on the ground
Evers would cry and apologize.

Carole King writes: “......I’d always thought, if I found myself with a man like that
first time he struck me
I would never stay with an abuser.
Until I did.....”
Carole King learned to say “no” to her cash-dependant husband
who constantly asked her for money to buy drugs
she eventually left Evers.

Husband No. 4, carpenter from Idaho Rick Sorensen, aka "Teepee Rick," to whom Carole King was married from 1982 to 1987
bought a large ranch with her in central Idaho
which he managed until they split.


For those looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 12-12-2019, 04:02 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.
But I thought terms and 12th parts were the only way to explain differences between twins...

And fall is not a dignity, it is usually called a debility.

Quote:
It's not my fault the silly Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are domiciled where they are.

It's not my fault the idiot Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are exalted where they are, and as a consequence of the reason why they're exalted, they're in fall in the opposite sign.

Then the moronic Greeks were stupid enough to thin that if a body is in fall in the sign opposite exaltation a body must be "harmed" by being opposite it's domicile.
You must really hate Greeks. Can you explain why Mars is exalted in Capricorn? Sometimes it is hard to understand someone speaking through so much foam in his mouth.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-12-2019 at 04:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
Aria Venue (12-30-2019), JUPITERASC (12-13-2019), Opal (12-31-2019), sworm09 (12-12-2019)
  #6  
Unread 12-30-2019, 08:35 PM
Aria Venue Aria Venue is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 568
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Jupiter what a wonderful video indeed regarding essential dignities ..this is one of the lessons i loved more when i was studying them following the same approach through art
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Aria Venue For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (12-30-2019)
  #7  
Unread 12-31-2019, 12:03 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Jupiter what a wonderful video indeed regarding essential dignities
..this is one of the lessons i loved more when i was studying them
following the same approach through art
Another perspective on the same topic Aria Venue
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxD2S9tQCkM
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Aria Venue (12-31-2019)
  #8  
Unread 12-31-2019, 10:19 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

We have no sidereal boards
so here's an opportunity to assess planetary strength and dignity sidereally
The sign and house a planet is in represents
whether that planet is able to express itself easily or not.
A planet in a comfortable location of the chart
makes those aspects of the personality and life easier to work with.
While planets in challenging locations makes it more difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsitq-7z7nE
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Aria Venue (12-31-2019)
  #9  
Unread 12-31-2019, 02:30 PM
Opal's Avatar
Opal Opal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,762
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Hi JupiterAsc,

I will watch this with interest later, marking this so that I can locate it in subscribed threads. Thanks. Opal
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 01-04-2020, 05:42 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Another perspective on the same topic Aria Venue
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxD2S9tQCkM
Not all astrologers have made a distinction between essential and accidental dignities and debilities. Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Valens, Paulus and other Hellenistic astrologers often group them together, for example Dorotheus and Valens compare ''inoperative'' planets in fall to ''inoperative'' planets in cadent houses, meaning that they thought they meant power, Ptolemy and Paulus likewise grouped ''inoperative'' phases (like evening retrograde) with them.

Quote:
For the magnitude of the event we must examine their power and observe whether they are actively situated both in the cosmos itself and in the nativity, or the reverse; for they are most effective when, with respect to the cosmos, they are in their own or in familiar regions, and again when they are rising and are increasing in their numbers; and, with respect to the nativity, whenever they are passing through the angles or signs that rise after them, and especially the principal of these, by which I mean the signs ascendant and culminating. They are weakest, with respect to the universe, when they are in places belonging to others or those unrelated to them, and when they are occidental or retreating in their course; and, with respect to the nativity, when they are declining from the angles. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#3
Ptolemy seems to make a distinction between the universe and the nativity only with regard to time here.

It is true that when such a distinction is sometimes made, the essential dignity is taken with regard to quality, while the accidental dignity is taken with regard to quantity, but this in my opinion wrong theoretically and experientially. Indian astrologers have even made two distinct concepts of Ishta (power to do good) and Kashtha (power to do harm) to do deal with some related problems.

Naturally, why does Saturn become stronger to help or harm at the Midheaven? You would answer that it has more power to cool there. Then I would ask why would Saturn become stronger to help, but not stronger to harm in Libra or Aquarius since these signs increase cold in the exact same way???

But you ask doesn't Saturn sometimes give great wealth and power to nativities, and doesn't he sometimes cause great afflictions? Yes, of course, but that has to do with his harmonious or disharmonious relationship with the planet/angle/lot through the different aspects and natures of the subjects. So combining essential and accidental dignity into the same concept does not prevent us from making these distinctions, while I would argue that too much emphasis on the essential dignity could prevent someone making this distinction in the particular cases - for example when it helps rank with trine to the Sun from Aquarius by day, but causes divorce with square to the Moon in a dual sign in a male nativity, Aquarius is not going to help the first and mitigate the latter, I argue that is going to increase and actualize the effects of both.

Powerful Saturn at the nativity does not mean that it will give only very good or very evil at all times (though it certainly can exceed in one direction), if you use the recasting of horoscopes at solar and lunar revolutions, planets change their powers, which allows for differentiation in the chronocratorship. You can't make this important differentiation if you only use primary directions, profections or what have you with the nativity though.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-04-2020 at 06:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
Aria Venue (01-04-2020), JUPITERASC (01-08-2020)
  #11  
Unread 07-29-2020, 09:52 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Not all astrologers have made a distinction between essential and accidental dignities and debilities.

Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Valens, Paulus and other Hellenistic astrologers often group them together, for example Dorotheus and Valens compare ''inoperative'' planets in fall to ''inoperative'' planets in cadent houses, meaning that they thought they meant power, Ptolemy and Paulus likewise grouped ''inoperative'' phases (like evening retrograde) with them.


Ptolemy seems to make a distinction between the universe and the nativity only with regard to time here.

It is true that when such a distinction is sometimes made, the essential dignity is taken with regard to quality, while the accidental dignity is taken with regard to quantity, but this in my opinion wrong theoretically and experientially. Indian astrologers have even made two distinct concepts of Ishta (power to do good) and Kashtha (power to do harm) to do deal with some related problems.

Naturally, why does Saturn become stronger to help or harm at the Midheaven? You would answer that it has more power to cool there. Then I would ask why would Saturn become stronger to help, but not stronger to harm in Libra or Aquarius since these signs increase cold in the exact same way???

But you ask doesn't Saturn sometimes give great wealth and power to nativities, and doesn't he sometimes cause great afflictions? Yes, of course, but that has to do with his harmonious or disharmonious relationship with the planet/angle/lot through the different aspects and natures of the subjects. So combining essential and accidental dignity into the same concept does not prevent us from making these distinctions, while I would argue that too much emphasis on the essential dignity could prevent someone making this distinction in the particular cases - for example when it helps rank with trine to the Sun from Aquarius by day, but causes divorce with square to the Moon in a dual sign in a male nativity, Aquarius is not going to help the first and mitigate the latter, I argue that is going to increase and actualize the effects of both.

Powerful Saturn at the nativity does not mean that it will give only very good or very evil at all times (though it certainly can exceed in one direction), if you use the recasting of horoscopes at solar and lunar revolutions, planets change their powers, which allows for differentiation in the chronocratorship. You can't make this important differentiation if you only use primary directions, profections or what have you with the nativity though.

The ORIGINS of the CONCEPT of DETRIMENT in Astrology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zem-...em-uploademail


Benjamin Dykes sent me a document he had been preparing
for his upcoming course on medieval astrology
where he did a survey of references to the concept
in the early medieval tradition.
https://bendykes.com Ben classified the references
into three groups
in terms of how the medieval astrologers
were conceptualizing detriment:

1. Inner division and contrariety

2. Corruption, disintegration

3. Foreign things, strangers, others

Ben agreed to join me on the show to discuss this issue
and to review some of the different references that we found
in order to get a better understanding of the origins and use
of this concept in traditional astrology.

.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 08-12-2020, 06:47 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,787
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

The ORIGINS of the CONCEPT of DETRIMENT in Astrology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zem-...em-uploademail


Benjamin Dykes sent me a document he had been preparing
for his upcoming course on medieval astrology
where he did a survey of references to the concept
in the early medieval tradition.
https://bendykes.com Ben classified the references
into three groups
in terms of how the medieval astrologers
were conceptualizing detriment:

1. Inner division and contrariety

2. Corruption, disintegration

3. Foreign things, strangers, others

Ben agreed to join me on the show to discuss this issue
and to review some of the different references that we found
in order to get a better understanding of the origins and use
of this concept in traditional astrology.

.
I just watched that episode. It seems to me they set out trying to refute the original article on sevenstarastrology about detriment on a mere textual basis but apart from a lot of vague gesturing and guessing I didn't hear much of substance. I'm a bit disappointed.


ETA:

original article in question:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/detriment/

comments by the author on the Brennan/Dykes podcast:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...ment/#comments
__________________
ďMillionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.Ē ― J.P. Morgan

Last edited by muchacho; 08-12-2020 at 06:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 08-12-2020, 07:34 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

I just watched that episode.
It seems to me they set out trying to refute the original article
on sevenstarastrology about detriment
on a mere textual basis
but apart from a lot of vague gesturing and guessing
I didn't hear much of substance.

I'm a bit disappointed.

ETA:
original article in question:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/detriment/
comments by the author on the Brennan/Dykes podcast:

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...ment/#comments
Thanks for highlighting
and linking original article that caused Brennan's ire
when brought to his attention ON twitter

on the podcast Brennan appears irate, grumbling that
"...a pupil had completed his Hellenistic course a few years ago.."
yet now has the temerity to disagree with Brennan
on whether or not DETRIMENT is specifically mentioned
by Hellenistic astrologers

On checking the link you thoughtfully provided
I note that sevenstarsastrology is quoting DOROTHEUS

"on Mercury and Jupiter in Each Other’s Houses"

which Brennan and Dykes claim on their podcast
is aka DETRIMENT
via Robert Schmidts notion of "CONTRARIETY"

HOWEVER

"....Dorotheus’s delineations of the same rulership combinations
also fail to show any evidence of contrariety.

The indications are very similar to those given by Manetho.
“If Mercury was in a house or bound of Jupiter, he will have awe, be a preacher or a manager for the matters of kings and the nobles, or an educator for the people in speaking and lawsuits and judgment, and he will always be in the labor of great cities and kings.” (Dorotheus, Book II, Ch. 36, #2, Dykes trans., 2017, p. 173)
“If Jupiter was in a house of Mercury, he will be of those who are established in justice in their communities, or a calculator for all things, being intelligent, sound in intellect, and he will be praised for that and turned to help in that.” (Dorotheus, Book II, Ch. 33, #5, Dykes trans., 2017, p. 171)



__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 02-19-2021, 06:55 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*




On Brennanís Specious Account of Detrimentís Origins

Equivocation Used as a Trojan Horse


https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...tic-detriment/


Brennanís arguments and ďevidenceĒ rely
upon you making the logical fallacy of equivocation.

Brennan uses two very different definitions of detriment
as if they are synonymous.


First, Brennanís ďdetrimentĒ
(D1) is
any problematic indication
arising from the rulerís opposition to its domicile

(Brennan asserts as much in the last sentence of the first page of his PDF).
Is this a sufficient definition of detriment
given that whole-sign aspects were used in Hellenistic astrology
including aspects to places?
After all, the opposition itself was often associated with conflict and enmity.

As youíll see, D1 is not sufficient in the least.

In other words, itís not detriment.






.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 02-19-2021, 07:08 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*


Then there is Brennanís reconstructed Hellenistic ďdetrimentĒ
(D2)
called Antithesis/Exile/Adversities
which is a planetary debility due to
the placement of the planet in a sign with contrary qualities
pertaining especially to the contrary nature of its ruler.



Because we see evidence of D1

Brennan reasons that D2 is implicit
in any statement by any Hellenistic astrologer
where some problematic indication is given for the position (D1).
However
D1 in no way implies D2.



This faulty reasoning is apparent
in what is presented as evidence
(the PDF)
with the following puffery.
These references leave no doubt that the concept of detriment originated in the earlier Hellenistic astrological tradition, going back to at least the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. (Brennan, The Astrology Podcast website, Episode 264, 2020)



https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...tic-detriment/


.




__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 02-19-2021, 07:18 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*




Rulerís Configuration of Opposition (RCO)

The issue here is

that the conditions of D1 (some problematic indication)

are not sufficient conditions

for detriment.



What Chris leaves out

are full passages from Dorotheus and Valens
that show them using a technique
in which a placeís delineation
is influenced by the nature of the configuration (aspect)

between its ruler and the place (house or lot).


The problematic
(or beneficial, depending on the nature of the aspect)
indication
with this technique
comes about for the signification of the place or lot aspected
and

consistent with the nature of the aspect from the ruler.
For the opposition, this can include a sense of separation, distance,
obstacle, struggle, enmity, and/or counterpart.
Dorotheus, for example, also explicitly
mentioned delineations for the configurations of the ruler
by square, trine, and aversion (no aspect) to the place.


Clear Evidence of the Use of Rulerís Configuration
as a Technique for Delineating Places (Houses and Lots)
ď...If you wish to know what of love and other than that there is between him [the native] and his brothers, then look from the lord of the lot of brothers. If its lord aspects it from trine, it indicates love between them, and if it aspects from quartile, it indicates a medium amount of that love. If you find it in opposition to the lot, then it is an indicator of enmity and separation. If it [the lord] does not aspect it [the lot], it indicates the estrangement of one of them from the other...Ē (Dorotheus, Book I, Ch. 20, Pingree trans., 2005, p. 179)


The passage above was included in my original article

where this issue was explored at length.


For more information
jump to the relevant full section here in the article
where I present similar examples from Vettius Valens
including one where the oppositional meaning of ď...counterpart...Ē
comes into play
without any necessary sense of problem or adversity.


Clouding the Field with D1
Given explicit evidence
for the use of the rulerís configuration
as a significant interpretive technique,
since at least the time of Dorotheus,
all supposed evidence of an implicit use of detriment
must be considered in light of
whether a given passage
could conceivably pertain to
this well-documented and widespread technique.


All of Brennanís evidence outside of Hephaistion (5th century)
and Rhetorius (6th or 7th century)
and actually some of the evidence from Hephaistion
Rhetorius, and afterward (Theophilus)
is better characterized as pertaining to the RCO technique.

Brennan has produced a PDF
chock full of instances of RCO (rulerís configuration of opposition)
which is a technique for delineating places
not a planetary debility or sign classification.



Anyone with knowledge of the RCO technique
can see that Brennanís supposed evidence of detriment
from early Hellenistic astrology (i.e. pre-5th century)
is comprised of evidence of RCO
with nothing that remotely supports his reconstructed detriment
(D2).


RCO is an early technique
and survived on through the entire period of Hellenistic astrology
actually right into the Perso-Arabic period.

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...tic-detriment/






.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 02-19-2021, 07:31 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*





RCO ≠ Detriment

Rulerís Configuration of Opposition (RCO)
differs from any sort of detriment in many ways.

These differences allow us to easily
identify every single one of Brennanís delineation examples
prior to Hephaistion as RCO.


Letís look at some key differences.

  1. Delineation is of Place (House or Lot), Not Planet: The indication pertains to modifying the meaning of the place or lot, not the planetís condition.
  2. Focus on Configuration, Not Sign: The indication follows from the nature of the aspect, not the nature of the sign the opposing planet is in or its ruler.
  3. A Marriage of Established Doctrines: The indication requires only the existing doctrines of rulership and aspect, without any additional concept involved. This is why it doesnít require introduction as a principle where other principles are introduced, unlike sign-based rejoicing/debility which is explicitly introduced because it doesnít obviously follow from established doctrines.
  4. Does Not Entail Contrariety Between Planet and Sign: There is not an indication of contrariety between the planet and the sign it is placed in or its ruler.
  5. Does Not Entail Planetary Debility Like Detriment: While the opposition may diminish what the ruler promises for the place it opposes (i.e. responsibility + potential conflict or enmity), there is no additional entailment that the natural significations of the planet or the significations of other things it rules are harmed or weakened due to the position.
  6. Flexibility Pertaining to the Interpretation of Opposition: Hellenistic astrologers varied with regard to just how dire they viewed the aspect of opposition. Some considered oppositions from benefics to be a good thing, for instance. An opposition could also carry associations of counterpart or significant other which were not adverse at all. Additionally, Hellenistic astrologers more often stressed the benefit of a ruler having some configuration (rather than being ďturned awayĒ) than they did any potential adversity from the type of aspect from the ruler.
For these reasons, and more, RCO is not detriment
by any name, and certainly doesnít entail D2
nor represent an implicit use of D2.
Many of Dykesís and Brennanís Chart Examples Are RCO
I couldnít help but smile as Dykes and Brennan gave examples
from celebrities and their own practice.
So many of them were better explained
as pertaining to RCO
than to any planetary debility of sign contrariety.
When so many examples are not necessarily unfortunate
and instead tend to involve separation from home, partnerships,
focus on others
itís clear we are dealing with RCO.


The same when there is an unfortunate event
that is signified by the house that is being opposed by its ruler
(such as marital finances Ė 8th house).
I kept thinking to myself
ď....havenít you guys heard of
deriving a delineation for a place from the rulerís configuration?Ē

Lumping RCO in with detriment clouds what is going on.

When we get to medieval material
we find that RCO still persists as a consideration.
Without recognizing that RCO ever even existed
let alone persisted the advent of detriment as a concept
we lose the distinction between late medieval delineations
of places, which sometimes involved RCO
and delineations of planets in signs
which sometimes involved detriment.


https://sevenstarsastrology.com/the-...tic-detriment/



.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 02-19-2021, 07:42 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*



Brennanís Detriment is Medieval

D2 (antithesis, exile, etc.)

is essentially
the medieval Perso-Arabic detriment of Sahl (8th century) and Abu Maíshar (9th century).
It is a planetary debility that focuses
on the
sign opposite the domicile
as a place of harm or weakness for the planet.


Arabic terms pertaining to unhealthiness, contrariety, inversion
and, eventually, estrangement
figure into their description of the condition
just as they do with Brennanís Antithesis, Exile, and Adversities.


Like Brennan, they also define it
as a significant principle of interpretation in introductory material.
These features do not all coalesce in a single place
as an established integral part of the system of chart interpretation
until well into the Perso-Arabic period.
I noted in my article on development
Rhetorius is the godfather of this concept
al-Andarzaghar appears to have been its birth father
and it only matured to become an accepted
integral part of the system
around the time of Abu Maíshar
though still less important than fall.
Therefore
D2 is essentially medieval detriment mischaracterized

as Brennanís own ď...reconstructed...Ē Hellenistic detriment.
Attempting to Combine RCO and Detriment


.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 02-19-2021, 08:53 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 69,783
Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

*


In some ways, Brennanís concept
tries to combine both RCO and medieval detriment.

This was not a combination in Hellenistic astrology
because
something like detriment
only sees some intimations of the concept of detriment
at the end of the tradition.


Rhetorius first brought in some notion of contrariety
but he also used RCO in some passages.

When using RCO, he still stressed the delineation of the place
not the planet.

Brennan is correct to bring in notions of distance
for the position from Valensís use of RCO.
However
the concept of ď...exile...Ē applied to a planet
is a misuse of RCO
which actually pertains to delineating the place
opposed by its ruler

not the ruler.


This planetary focus and stress on the position
as a debility due to contrariety
are the reasons Brennanís D2
is most accurately labeled medieval detriment.
Brennan still actively promotes
a view of detriment as a Hellenistic construct
where a planet in a sign
is seen as akin to a marginalized
or even enslaved individual in an oppressive society.
There was such a concept in Hellenistic astrology
called fall
also known as slavery
but
the view that there was a Hellenistic detriment pre-Rhetorius,
let alone one with any such social construct at its heart
is an inaccurate one.


Development is Mischaracterized

How can one have an account of
an astrological conceptís historical development
without a close look at
when
how
and why
its features originate, coalesce into the distinct concept
and
that concept gains currency

as a significant principle of practice?
In Brennanís account, itís just there from the beginning
and becomes apparent to us
by later astrologerís
making explicit something initially implicit.

In other words, the assumption of implicit early origins
causes one to actually turn a blind eye to its development.
Instead, we get a laundry list of occurrences of D1
(some stray problematic indications
associated with the position that is 95% RCO)
over about an 800 year period
as if that is sufficient evidence of implicit use of D2.

Of course, we expect to see stray problematic indications
associated with the position
because

consideration of the configuration
of the lord of a house or lot (including RCO)
was a technique apparent from the beginning
and continuing right through the Middle Ages.

Detriment, on the other hand
was a novel development that was slow to come about




.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
detriment, exaltation, exile, exploration, fall, indepth, rulership

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.