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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 10-11-2019, 10:26 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

All,

The subject of this thread is celibacy from a traditional astrology perspective. Please stay on topic. I just deleted several off topic posts. Including a request to stay on topic and the subsequent post that ignored it.

If you spend more than one or two posts on a side point, that is hijacking the thread.

Again, no hijacking,
Osamenor

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  #27  
Unread 10-12-2019, 12:15 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
That doesn't describe lostinstars' chart.
Hi Osamenor,

That's what was in the chart that was posted the other day (but isn't here now).


Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
No one I know with a Virgo Venus in 8h is anywhere near celibate. Delayed marriage yes.
Hi passiflora,

I never said it was. There's more to it than planets and signs. A rising Venus is the same as a setting Venus and a rising day Venus is not the same as a rising night Venus and it's impacted by the house ruler and whether or not the house ruler can even see the house it rules and whether benefics or malefics aspect Venus.

And that's just part of it.

Is Venus between the malelifics or separate from a malefic and applying to a benefic and on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
... a study done on prostitutes saw Virgo Venus being statistically significant for the set. This was using the astrodatabank. For comparison Taurus and Libra Venus were low in frequency.
Hi conspiracy theorist,

I've seen that, but there are other factors they don't take into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Im not denying that a combination of factors could make a native a celibate or a sadist or a murderer or anything else. But like how Venus in Virgo is seen as statistically significant among prostitutes there could be something similar in case of life long celibates.
Hi lostinstars,

Now that I've seen your real chart, not much has changed. Maternus and Dorotheus say the same thing. You don't just have a H12 Venus, you have a Libra H12 Venus ruling H7 and to rub salt in the wound, in square to a Capricorn Moon/Jupiter conjunction.

That will make things difficult for you and having a H1 Scorpio Saturn with Mars sitting in H2 doesn't help at all.
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  #28  
Unread 10-12-2019, 03:56 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

@AJ

What factors weren't taken into account?
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  #29  
Unread 10-12-2019, 04:33 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
While I might dispute this astrologically, if you are saying what I think you are saying, you might benefit from counseling. Especially if you have got a back-story of exposure to childhood sexual abuse or a super-strict upbringing, counseling might be helpful.
Thanks waybread, no sexual abuse but very strict upbringing by a cold mother but Im not unique, every second person you come across have such upbringing from a middle class conservative family. I dont hold the upbringing responsible for my celibacy but like you said Saturn cripples my self esteem to the core.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Further, I wonder if you might have sublimated that domiciled Venus into some other Venusian activity like playing a musical instrument, writing poetry, or reading.
I read voraciously for a guy (Im a guy) and from childhood I always wanted to learn piano but no opportunities in my city except from one Catholic Church which has a long list of people waiting to learn piano literally hundreds, unbelievable!
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  #30  
Unread 10-12-2019, 05:17 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
You'd be interested to know that playboy centerfolds also have prominent Virgo planets, but the statistical significant Venus sign was for Scorpio, which follows a modern astrology trope of being the seductress vixen that men obsess over. For homosexual men, Virgo Venus and Mars were statistically significant. All of this suggests that the sign Virgo has a sexual component that balances out its virginal motifs.
It is very difficult to explain this dichotomy of supposed Virgo virgins being playboy centerfolds, probably it alludes to the fact of meticulousness of Virgos to use information, in this case using their sexuality and youngish looks for living keeping it separate from their intimate private lives. Do you think other signs can do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
As to stats on celibates, certainly think it's possible although I haven't seen any research on the matter. The great news there is that the necessary tools are there to undertake such a study. One may contact the man running this website -> https://astrologyresearch.co.uk/ speak to him on what tools he uses to do his statistical analysis, and then head to the astrodatabank files and apply those tools to the charts of celibates to see what crops up. Or you could collate charts on celibates independently to add/augment what is already available in the database.

As indicated by those tests I've alluded to, if one were to only rely on Dogma you'd probably not see Virgos topping the list of these groups of persons.
Thanks, interesting I will reach out to this person.
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  #31  
Unread 10-12-2019, 05:31 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Lostinstars, I think Mom as a cool, remote kind of person to you is shown with your moon-Jupiter in Capricorn. One in detriment, the other in its fall, both ruled by Saturn.

I also have Jupiter in Capricorn and have not found it to be a terrible debility. I have a love of history and old furniture, for example. But sometimes I do feel luck has passed me by, given the effort I've put into certain endeavors. However, my life has also avoided major problems; and I think many people would see it as fortunate.

One thing about Saturn, is that because he rules old age, he tends to reward his apt pupils later in life. Saturn demands something from us: perseverance, hard work, and self-discipline, however.

One dimension of traditional astrology that we haven't discussed yet is that much of it tends to be fatalistic. Some people believe that they have choices, and find fatalism depressing. Others view fatalism with a sense of relief: that their problems in life are not somehow their fault, like some kind of moral failing. Their life has unfolded as it must for someone with their horoscope. The individual has one big choice: to accept and embrace the life he has been given; and to meet life's troubles with calm and courage. Or not, but then resistance just creates hardship.

So maybe consider whether this fatalistic view lets you off the hook. I think that if you don't wish to be celibate any more, and believe that you can make choices, there are ways that modern people today change it. Maybe these ways do not lead to a happy longstanding intimate relationship, but they cure the celibacy issue. But maybe you prefer to stay within your comfort zone and not take any risks. If so, then you have carved out a life for yourself that suits you, all things considered.

If none of the above, I hope you will try counseling. There are helpful and unhelpful counselors and psychologists, as there are in any profession. But if you find a good one, s/he might help you take those steps more towards the kind of life you want.

BTW, if you would love to play the piano and are in a situation now that could include it, you can always begin as an adult. Venus in Libra would probably enjoy a little music.
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  #32  
Unread 10-12-2019, 05:48 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Note that Hitler had a Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn. And a stellium in Taurus. Venus is sole dispositor and strongly over-emphasized.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-12-2019 at 05:59 AM.
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  #33  
Unread 10-12-2019, 06:01 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
One thing about Saturn, is that because he rules old age, he tends to reward his apt pupils later in life. Saturn demands something from us: perseverance, hard work, and self-discipline, however.

One dimension of traditional astrology that we haven't discussed yet is that much of it tends to be fatalistic. Some people believe that they have choices, and find fatalism depressing. Others view fatalism with a sense of relief: that their problems in life are not somehow their fault, like some kind of moral failing. Their life has unfolded as it must for someone with their horoscope. The individual has one big choice: to accept and embrace the life he has been given; and to meet life's troubles with calm and courage. Or not, but then resistance just creates hardship.
I have come to accept that life is more fatalistic in line with the traditional astrology's opinion with all the experiences I have had so far. May be it is so for Saturn dominated natives (Saturn has the next highest accidental dignity with peregrine after Venus, the Lady of Geniture in my chart).

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
If none of the above, I hope you will try counseling. There are helpful and unhelpful counselors and psychologists, as there are in any profession. But if you find a good one, s/he might help you take those steps more towards the kind of life you want.

BTW, if you would love to play the piano and are in a situation now that could include it, you can always begin as an adult. Venus in Libra would probably enjoy a little music.

Thanks, I will consider it at some point to try counseling.
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  #34  
Unread 10-12-2019, 06:02 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Note that Hitler had a Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn. And a stellium in Taurus. Venus is sole dispositor and strongly over-emphasized.
I read somewhere he had only Moon in Cap, and he was a momma's boy.
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  #35  
Unread 10-12-2019, 06:27 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

You can find Adolf Hitler's chart here https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf but obviously any comparisons with your chart are unacceptable. The moon circles the zodiac every month, and Jupiter is in Capricorn for an entire year every 12 years. So obviously there are millions of people with a moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn.
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  #36  
Unread 10-12-2019, 07:08 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You can find Adolf Hitler's chart here https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf but obviously any comparisons with your chart are unacceptable. The moon circles the zodiac every month, and Jupiter is in Capricorn for an entire year every 12 years. So obviously there are millions of people with a moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn.
True, a particular placement is seen across countless people but every chart is unique.
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  #37  
Unread 10-12-2019, 12:23 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMB View Post

Well....I am 45 now....and I havent had sex in my life so far....
So, probably my chart will be the best example in this topic
....also I am not into spirituality and stuff

...If you want I can put up my chart here...

However, I dont know which chart to put
- Western;Vedic or any other....
SMB - a member requested your vedic chart
but since this is our traditonal astrology board
moderator quite rightly deleted the vedic chart you posted
but not before it was seen by AJ Astrology
from whom you got the following response

for clarity if you would repost your traditional western chart that would be useful
because your chart would be as you say an excellent example for this topic

kaktuzz online free traditional chart calculation feature
is at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

It's the chart conditions, not the planets.

Your chart has Venus in the west. That is one of many conditions that may lead to celibacy, hermitage or delayed marriage.

Understand it is not Venus, it is the location and condition of Venus in your chart. Big difference.

That's an issue of contention between modern and traditional, especially when modern distorts and claims traditionals say Saturn in H7 means no marriage, even though no traditional astrologer has ever said that.

Saturn, under certain conditions in H7, can lead to no marriage. An Aquarian Saturn in H7 is going to get married, probably only once and lasting until death.

A Leo Saturn is hardly the same as an Aquarian Saturn.

You have a Virgo Venus in H8. That is the problem. Not Venus, not Virgo, not H8, but Virgo Venus in H8.

See how that works?

Since it's at 0 deg a lot of traditionals would consider it to be still in H7, but the signification is similar. It's an indicator of celibacy, hermitage or delayed marriage. You just have to read Dorotheus or Maternus or Ibn-Ezra.

The Sun's up in your chart, which is not good for Venus (or Mars) since she likes the night.

There are no aspects to your Venus.

Ruler Mercury is inconjunct in the adjacent H9 with Sun. Venus is not in aspect with Mars and would never perfect the square.

That's what you look at, the chart, not a specific planet.

I would say your Leo Sun/Mercury impacts your views since H9 is spiritual matters, philosophies, ideas, travel and such.

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  #38  
Unread 10-12-2019, 03:39 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Wow...All of a sudden my chart's in great demand here.... Ok...No problem, mate....here you are.....
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  #39  
Unread 10-12-2019, 07:16 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

I can add my chart as an example as well. I'm 32. Never had sex, never wanted to have sex, and I think it's very unlikely to change at this point... My chart also shares some characteristics with SMB's, so I thought it might be of interest.
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  #40  
Unread 10-12-2019, 08:39 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is very difficult to explain this dichotomy of supposed Virgo virgins being playboy centerfolds, probably it alludes to the fact of meticulousness of Virgos to use information, in this case using their sexuality and youngish looks for living keeping it separate from their intimate private lives. Do you think other signs can do this?
Another significant placement that cropped up for the list of prostitutes was the Sun in Capricorn. Leaving behind the mythological and psychological for a second, both signs are of the earth element and my thinking is these placements may go into these professions for pragmatic reasons, and may have less resistance to being seen as a commodity. Other elements may place emotional connection, passion/chemistry or mental stimulation as a big motivator to get sexually involved with someone, where prostitution doesn't need any of those to be present. Some guy wants to get his rocks off, prostitute is offering her services. It's transactional. Then the nature of the business is heavily grounded in the body which the Earth element is more conscious of than any other sign.

Then Virgo is a sign of service, so that Venus in Virgo could be construed as "sexual services".
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  #41  
Unread 10-12-2019, 08:50 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMB View Post


Wow...All of a sudden my chart's in great demand here....


Ok...No problem, mate....here you are.....

Thanks for verifying that AJ Astrology is referring to your natal chart
regarding several traditional indicators for potential celibacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domna View Post


I can add my chart as an example as well.

I'm 32. Never had sex, never wanted to have sex, and I think
it's very unlikely to change at this point
... My chart also shares some characteristics with SMB's, so
I thought it might be of interest.

Thanks Domna

SMB has an 8th house Venus as well
and both charts are Day Charts


however

Your Venus is in Domicile
whereas SMB Venus is in Depression

nevertheless

neither of these Venus is aspected


lostinstars Venus IS aspected


the following helpful summary of various planetary conditions
was posted by petosiris some time ago


Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post






































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  #42  
Unread 10-12-2019, 09:16 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

@SMB

Unsure if you are a male or female, but in the section of the Tetrobiblos titled "On Marriage" this is what Ptolemy had to say about men:

Quote:
For men it is necessary to observe the position of the
moon in their genitures. For, in the first place, if she chances to be in the
eastern quadrants, she makes men marry young or marry women younger
than themselves; but if she is in the western quadrants they marry late or
marry older women. And if she is under the rays of the sun and in aspect
with Saturn, they do not marry at all.
In your chart, we see that the Moon is placed in the western quadrant, and is under the beams of the Sun. It doesn't aspect Saturn based on orb, but it does aspect Saturn by sign, and the Moon is in the sign of Saturn's exaltation. Saturn is itself on the 7th house cusp, which is another indication of "delay in marriage".

Venus is in the 8th sign, which traditionally is referred to as "idle". Nothing happening.

Interesting to note of the 4 persons who shared their charts on this thread, 3 out of 4 of them have Venus in domicile. While 1 has it in fall.

2 have Venus in the 8th house (idle), 1 has Venus in the 12th (loss/exile) while 1 has Venus in the 5th house (the joy of Venus).

But the commonality the charts all share is that the Moon is in a position of disadvantage. One case the Moon is in conjunction with an out-of-sect Saturn, and co-present with another malefic, One has the Moon in detriment, One has the Moon combust (a real debility traditionally) and the last has Moon in the 12th - in exile.

Intriguing patterns are emerging even from such a small set of people, with intriguing implications to go along with it. Is it that those with a combination of a stressed Moon and a domicile Venus prefer to remain untouchable and "pure"? That perhaps emotional unavailability is coupled with a desire to keep one's affections to oneself, that there is a contentment with not engaging with anybody sexually or romantically.
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Unread 10-12-2019, 09:19 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

SMB and Domna also have an out of sect Venus.
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  #44  
Unread 10-12-2019, 10:06 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post


SMB and Domna also have an out of sect Venus.

that's because
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


...........and both charts are Day Charts
and so Moon, Venus and Mars are all out of sect
I just posted FAQ on SECT on your recent thread
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...79&postcount=5



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  #45  
Unread 10-13-2019, 06:24 AM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

@Jupiterasc

Not only AJ astrology.....even waybread's post in the previous page is confusing....he is replying to lostinstars but at one point says "you are 45"(me).....so good ol' Osamenor had confused everyone coming to this thread going on a mass deletion spree...cant blame him though...he went about his work.....

@ conspiracy_theorist

Good observations there regarding my chart.... I am male......"delay in marriage" or "no marriage"...as of now ,my mind is totally off marriage as money matters/career have come to top priority now....also if possible I might go in for a live-in relationship....

talking about sex life.....be it Domna or me or whoever.....whatever has to happen has to happen at the right time... including sex......sex life ,say in early 20's itself would have been nice.....Bah....Just imagine myself getting laid at the age of 50....S*cks

Need to add this, Domna says she never wanted to have sex....difference is, I want to....
so you can analyse from both our charts where this difference lies....

You also wrote :

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Then Virgo is a sign of service, so that Venus in Virgo could be construed as "sexual services".
Last week itself in one thread I told....same thing I will put it here....

I have Venus in Virgo. From many years I am managing an Internet Parlour here in India. Needless to say, most of the customers come to my place for watching p*rn videos.....so which means "they pay me for watching adult stuff" (sex services)

Last edited by SMB; 10-13-2019 at 11:14 AM.
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  #46  
Unread 10-13-2019, 06:04 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
SMB and Domna also have an out of sect Venus.
As does everyone born in the daytime. If that were the reason for celibacy, everyone born in the day would be celibate for all or most of their life. And no one born at night would--while they're not posting in this thread, surely there are plenty of people born at night who are, for whatever reasons, celibate all or most of their lives.

I have heard a lecture by a (mostly) traditional astrologer who said that the out of sect benefic represents a problem you have to solve. So, if you have an out of sect Venus, something Venusian would be a problem to solve, and your life's work may consist of solving that problem. Maybe in some cases that's feeling forced into celibacy, or navigating the world as an asexual person. But certainly not all.

Planets in fall or detriment, and your in sect malefic, also represent problems to solve. Note how many of these charts have Moon or Venus in fall or detriment.
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  #47  
Unread 10-13-2019, 06:19 PM
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
a study done on prostitutes saw Virgo Venus being statistically significant for the set. This was using the astrodatabank. For comparison Taurus and Libra Venus were low in frequency.
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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is very difficult to explain this dichotomy of supposed Virgo virgins being playboy centerfolds, probably it alludes to the fact of meticulousness of Virgos to use information, in this case using their sexuality and youngish looks for living keeping it separate from their intimate private lives. Do you think other signs can do this?
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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Another significant placement that cropped up for the list of prostitutes was the Sun in Capricorn. Leaving behind the mythological and psychological for a second, both signs are of the earth element and my thinking is these placements may go into these professions for pragmatic reasons, and may have less resistance to being seen as a commodity. Other elements may place emotional connection, passion/chemistry or mental stimulation as a big motivator to get sexually involved with someone, where prostitution doesn't need any of those to be present. Some guy wants to get his rocks off, prostitute is offering her services. It's transactional. Then the nature of the business is heavily grounded in the body which the Earth element is more conscious of than any other sign.

Then Virgo is a sign of service, so that Venus in Virgo could be construed as "sexual services".
I have Venus in Virgo--in the eighth house, too--and there is no way, absolutely no way, I could ever see sex as just a transaction. It's much too personal, much too intimate. I can only go there with someone I really want to be intimate with.

My celibate times are times when there's no one around I feel that kind of intimacy with. When there is... well, I'm the extreme opposite of asexual, under those circumstances. Without true intimacy, I may have feelings and fantasies, but they don't extend to an actual, real world desire for the act. And I can't pretend. I don't even enjoy flirting, it feels much too fake. Which seems to me to be a Venus in Virgo thing as well.

However, I am drawn to being of service, in entirely non-sexual ways. I have the occasional astrology client these days, and I hope to be a practicing herbalist as well. That's also a one-on-one relationship, in which you learn a lot of secrets. And you have to make the other person feel at ease. In that, it has a common theme with sex work. But it's not sex work, and it's not something that would be expected to be a mutual gift under non-business circumstances.
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

By placidus your Venus would fall in the 8th, but by whole signs your Venus actually falls in the 9th. And unlike the two people in this thread who has their Venuses unaspected, yours has a conjunction with Mercury. The 3 people who have Venus in the "dark" houses (8th, 12th and 6th although none have shown up on this thread) have not had a romantic or sexual relationship, and they have passed their 1st Saturn return. Notwithstanding social conventions, I'd say 1st Saturn Return is a decent demarcation for late sex life.

I do see a lot of 9th house in the way you express your Venus. It being a part of a conjunction with Mercury plus it's house position does seem to speak well to the kind of narrative/storytelling approach you take to astrology (I've checked out your blog and I see your approach to astrological analysis all over the forum). "Spiritual/Philosophical storytelling". Also the herbalism and the combining of a connection to the earth and spirituality also sounds like a good manifestation of a Virgo Mercury/Venus in the 9th, with that Venus ruling the MC/10th sign - you make a profession out of it.
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Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 10-14-2019 at 02:40 AM.
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Re: Celibacy in traditional astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
By placidus your Venus would fall in the 8th, but by whole signs your Venus actually falls in the 9th. And unlike the two people in this thread who has their Venuses unaspected, yours has a conjunction with Mercury. The 3 people who have Venus in the "dark" houses (8th, 12th and 6th although none have shown up on this thread) have not had a romantic or sexual relationship, and they have passed their 1st Saturn return. Notwithstanding social conventions, I'd say 1st Saturn Return is a decent demarcation for late sex life.

I do see a lot of 9th house in the way you express your Venus. It being a part of a conjunction with Mercury plus it's house position does seem to speak well to the kind of narrative/storytelling approach you take to astrology (I've checked out your blog and I see your approach to astrological analysis all over the forum). "Spiritual/Philosophical storytelling". Also the herbalism and the combining of a connection to the earth and spirituality also sounds like a good manifestation of a Virgo Mercury/Venus in the 9th, with that Venus ruling the MC/10th sign - you make a profession out of it.
However, the statistic you found on sex workers didn't say which houses they had their Venus in. Unless it did and you didn't share that detail. You were correlating it with Venus in Virgo, implication being this statistic holds regardless of Venus's house. Or at least, the source you referenced made that implication.
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Last edited by Osamenor; 10-14-2019 at 07:07 PM.
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Unread 10-14-2019, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
However, the statistic you found on sex workers didn't say which houses they had their Venus in. Unless it did and you didn't share that detail. You were correlating it with Venus in Virgo, implication being this statistic holds regardless of Venus's house.
In terms of houses, Venus conjunct the 7th house cusp was statistically significant. I'll post the link when I get on a computer so you and everybody else can see for themselves.
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