Saturn the Greater Malefic

More or less, with the caveat of it depends on the chart. We all know this, right?

Night chart, Saturn-Antares on the ascendant. Not fun. I've had a lot of bone problems, spinal stenosis, sciatica, rheumatoid arthritis, since I was pretty young. As well as the other nastiness that Saturn tends to bring.

But Mars has also actively tried to kill me on several occasions. It's in an overcoming square to the moon (moon in 6 on Algol), and with moon exalted, it throws everything back to Mars to deal with. Life-threatening infections resulting in losing body parts - a couple of times, when Mars was highly active. And Mars has thrown its usual **** at me.

Saturn is misery, Mars is strife. If you look at it that way, and you're our age or thereabouts, you can probably tell which one is the worst.

OTOH, I know a couple of people younger with Saturn in Cap (one has it rx) who haven't done especially well with Saturn either, one with a day chart. I tend to believe Picatrix when he says that Saturn can be even more vicious if it's retrograde in domicile. Seen that in more than a few charts, sadly.

I have to disagree with Chris Brennan who makes this point very frequently. Domicile and bound, exaltation and bound, exaltation degree, favorable paranatellonta (full/bright degrees) and dodekatemorion at the exaltation degree, benefic aspects can completely override the day and night consideration. There are also secondary sect considerations one can take - position relative to horizon, gender and season etc. which can add up.

What point? I've read some of Chris's stuff, but I'm not a big fan.

petosiris said:

I have to disagree with Chris Brennan who makes this point very frequently. Domicile and bound, exaltation and bound, exaltation degree, favorable paranatellonta (full/bright degrees) and dodekatemorion at the exaltation degree, benefic aspects can completely override the day and night consideration. There are also secondary sect considerations one can take - position relative to horizon, gender and season etc. which can add up.

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Oddity said:

What point? I've read some of Chris's stuff, but I'm not a big fan.

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He says that Saturn is always (or at least ''for the most part'' and ''despite other factors'') the most negative planet in night charts, and Mars is always the most negative planet in day charts. He says that Jupiter is the most positive by day, and Venus by night. I wonder if the Project Hindsight did not just overreact against the Medieval tradition that regarded sect, horizon and gender all as + 1, going up to the other extreme. There is no evidence for those strong statements.

I also did not mention angularity in my previous post, which is the most important consideration with benefics at least. Many techniques are based on predomination in the Hellenistic tradition, for example the Moon can be the Predominator by day. Sect is important, but not the end of all, I can argue (I think convincingly) that angularity seems to have been more emphasized. Cadent Sect Light is never Predominator, yet contrary to sect light can be Predominator for example. The triplicity rulers of the sect light consider mostly the placement by angularity etc.

Oddity, I hope you can stay well and take care. We disagree on many matters social and astrological but I wouldn't wish poor health on anyone. I admire your astrological knowledge.

Rhys, et al.: Do you think the planetary joys by house have much of an impact? In quadrant house systems (which are mostly traditional) Saturn is in my 12th house, wherein it joys. In whole signs Saturn moves to the first.

I have a night birth. While my life (I'm now 69) has had its highs and lows, and I have my share of regrets; by this age I can look back and say that actually my life has turned out pretty well.

I have a night birth.

I've shared some thoughts about Saturn previously.

Basically I view Saturn as my wisest planetary teacher. His lessons aren't a lot of fun, but if we try to master them, this ruler of old age tends to reward his pupils later in life.

Saturn rules poverty? We learn frugality and deferred gratification.

Saturn rules misfortunes? We try to develop some backbone and the personal resources to learn from them. Saturn's motto? "Suck it up, Princess."

Saturn rules the bones. I have osteoarthritis and borderline osteroporosis. Not good, and definitely painful; but I live near a much younger neighbour who is now dying of cancer, and sinking rapidly. I'll take arthritis over late-stage terminal cancer.

In many ways, Saturn's operation is consistent with Hellenistic astrology's embrace of Stoicism. Life hands you a lemon? Maybe you can't make lemonade, but you can learn to be OK with lemons. In the face of a horrible situation, how do you comport yourself?

A lot of this is really common sense. I think Saturn appears awful to people who view life in terms of good luck and bad luck. Saturn asks for a much more hard-headed realism.

Rhys said:

This might belong in the "read my chart section"? Could one of the moderators respond to this?

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The Read My Chart section is for threads where people mainly want their chart read and aren't putting any effort into interpreting it themselves. "Here's my chart, tell me about my life" kinds of topics go in read my chart. This isn't that kind of topic. The OP hasn't even requested a chart reading. So, no, it doesn't belong in Read My Chart.

waybread said:

We could discuss Buddhism if it weren't such a huge digression from the OP.

I don't think you understand me, but no matter.

Then on what possible basis could talismans work? I have my answer but I'll hang onto it until I see yours-- or Rhys's answer.

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''Saturn’s color is black, since it is the symbol of time. The god is slow, and therefore the Babylonians called it Phainon <Illuminator>, since everything is illuminated in time.'' - Vettius Valens 6.2 - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

''Whatever gifts Saturn gives, no other star can take away.'' - attributed to Serapio - http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/translations/serapion-definitions.pdf

petosiris posts:
''Whatever gifts Saturn gives, no other star can take away.'' - attributed to Serapio - http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/...efinitions.pdf

Why, that's beautiful petosiris, thank you.

waybread said:

Rhys, et al.: Do you think the planetary joys by house have much of an impact? In quadrant house systems (which are mostly traditional) Saturn is in my 12th house, wherein it joys. In whole signs Saturn moves to the first.

I have a night birth. .

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The planetary joys are what got me into traditional astrology. I was having coffee with Lynn Bell - a noted psychological astrologer - who is very interested in H12 and the joys. On and on she went; I realized I knew nothing about them. So rather than admit my ignorance to Lynn, I secretly took Demetra George's traditional Astrology 101 and 201 at the Astrology University, and that's how I got hooked!

That being said, Waybread, I am STILL getting my head around them, so thanks for sharing your experience as I don't have any with H12 Saturn.

I also have a night chart and I have Moon in H3, Mars in H6 and Jupiter in H11. I've found having the planets in their joys in these houses seems to make them happier there, even Mars, although it flared up dramatically at one point during a Saturn transit a few years back. I broke my hip. Total drag.

I've read that Mars and Saturn being in their joys can make them more malefic, I've also read the opposite, so I suppose it depends on other factors.

I have Saturn/Venus/Neptune in Libra in a pivot house, H4. I have a night chart, and indeed Saturn has given me quite a bit of trouble. But Venus is also in there, so when H4 is activated in one way or another, whether by zodiacal releasing, fidiara, or what have you, it tends to be a mixture of both good and bad. While I've had to deal with all the emotional issues that one would normally expect from a configuration like this, I wouldn't trade it for anything as it helps me with my day job (I compose music to make a living). However, I have developed arthritis in my hands (I'm 66), which seems logical for a Saturn night chart person.

Getting back to your chart, Waybread, I think that's very interesting about Saturn being in H12 in a quadrant system and in H1 in whole sign. I took a FASCINATING masterclass last weekend with Bernadette Brady on house systems. What was great about it is that she didn't dizzy us talking about things like trigonometry and right ascension, but explained what each of the major house systems is based on and how that affects what it is symbolizing.

So for example whole sign, equal and Prophyry are based on the ecliptic and tell one story, Campanus is based on the Prime Vertical, so it has more to do with Place/Space relationship, and finally Alcabitus and Placidus are based on the diurnal circle, which has its own symbolism, there is more a relationship to time with these systems.

As we all know, even in the time of Valens people were using quadrant systems, Placidus and Alcabitus came to us thanks to the invention of the astrolabe. Anyway, the point of having all these house systems is that we use them for different things.

So I bet that having H12 Saturn has worked out one way in your life, and on a different level, perhaps a more holistic whole-sign one, a H1 Saturn makes a lot of sense also. Btw, which quadrant system did you use for your H12 Saturn, if you don't mind sharing that with us?

Oh boy, I'm in trouble! It's dinner time here in Paris gotta go. See you all tomorrow.

My best - Rhys

Rhys said:

omg! Not only that, but
Pluto
and the south node are in H1

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cheer up
your post is on traditional board where dwarf planetoid pluto
is of no consequence

Rhys this is my anonymous "traditional" chart, meaning I've removed identifying degrees to protect my anonymity, as well as the outers to avoid being brutalized by traditional thugs.

Those who prefer whole signs can interpolate. This is Placidus.

I note that there is a big discrepancy between whole signs and quadrant signs for people with a late degree rising.

I drew the short end of the stick on essential dignities with no exaltations or domiciles, but with Saturn joying in the 12th house and Venus joying in the 5th. I think the joys are real. (My Mars migrates to the 6th in some house systems, as well.)

Supposedly Saturn was assigned to the 12th: since the Hellenists believed the 12th house was so miserable anyway, at least Saturn in the 12th couldn't gum up another perfectly good house. So far as the 5th house goes, I have two terrific adult children (and one grandchild) and enjoy recreation in the great outdoors.

With Saturn opposite Mars in the 12th and 6th houses, theoretically my life should have been horrible. But despite setbacks and regrets, my life actually turned out pretty well.

Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism. I think a Leo moon and 5th house emphasis contribute to an optimistic mentality regardless.

Dinner in Paris, Rhys? I'm jealous. Oh, well. We did have lunch in a local pub, noted for its cholesterol bombs.

Bernadette Brady is one original thinker. WW III sometimes breaks out on forums as to the best house system. I think the answers are, (1) which house system best explains someone's life or an event; and (2) which assumptions in a house system most appeal to you?

In many ways I find Porphyry most appealing as one house system that could be figured out from looking at the sky,but I don't think it explains my life very well.

Saturn the Greater Malefic

other domicile AQUARIUS
Quote:
The watery symbolism continues in the figure known as the Great One,
the Babylonian name for our Aquarius.
As a seasonal symbol, the Great One with his overflowing vases
symbolises the increased rains and floods of winter and early spring.
Along with the constellation of the Field, which represents a plot of arable land
the Great One can be thought of as the Irrigator
as the rising of these constellations mark the season
when the ripening barley is irrigated before the springtime harvest.

....The Babylonian precursor of Aquarius is known as Gula, the Great One.
The constellation is generally portrayed as a standing male figure,
sometimes of gigantic proportions, who holds one or more vases
overflowing with streams of water.
With his feet firmly set upon the earth, the gigantic figure of Gula towers above the mountaintops.
The overflowing vases he holds aloft symbolise the fertile rains falling from heaven,
and the vases set about his feet represent the watery Abyss below the earth
from which freshwater wells up to feed rivers and lakes.
As a seasonal star the Great One represents the increase in river levels
and rainfall that occurs during the winter months.
In an agricultural context he can also be understood as the irrigator
whose waters irrigate the thriving barley fields in late winter.
The barley fields are, of course,represented among the stars
by the adjacent constellation of the Field.
To emphasise their watery nature the streams of water flowing from his vases
are often embellished with the tiny images of fish.
In fact, one of these fish appears on the Babylonian star-map
as the constellation known as the Fish
it too has been transmitted to the Greek heavens as the Southern Fish (Pisces Austrinus),
where it can be seen swimming along the outflow of Aquarius vase.

In Babylonian art, waterways such as rivers and streams
are conventionally depicted as a pair of wavy lines, which are thought to represent the parallel banks of a river.
Recognisably the same image occurs in the cuneiform writing system as the A-sign.
This sign by itself simply signifies water, but
it is also used in numerous compounds expressing watery concepts,
such as river, flood, sea and lake.
The basic form of this sign has evolved into
the familiar zigzag symbol used as the modern glyph for Aquarius.

Like many of the constellations that embody aquatic symbolism,
the Great One is closely associated with the god of wisdom and water,
known as Enki in Sumerian and Ea in Akkadian.
One astrology text simply states that the Great One is the Lord of springs, Ea.
In ancient art Enki is commonly depicted with overflowing vases in his hands
or set around his throne dais, and sometimes he is seen seated within a square enclosure
that is thought to represent the Abyss
Babylonian Starlore, by Gavin White p121-123

waybread said:

Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism. I think a Leo moon and 5th house emphasis contribute to an optimistic mentality regardless.

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I agree completely with what you say about Saturn, what a great way to put it!

And what a lovely fifth house, waybread! You're so lucky to be a grandfather, I wish I was. I keep asking my daughter when she's going to make me a grandfather and she says the French equivalent of "Papa! Hold your horses!" (and to mind my own business...)

Nice mutual reception with Mercury, the Lord of the Hour Marker.

So it looks like Mercury Venus and Sun/Mars are all in Aquarius, correct? And they are all ruled by Placidus H12 Saturn. Usually when we have planets in H12 in natal it indicates that there was purification work to be done. I can't help but look at the chart in whole signs, which would put Jupiter in H5 and explain how well your kids turned out and would put the other planets in H6, putting a lot of emphasis possibly on the work you did before you retired. Does that make any sense?

I'm not saying this as an either/or scenario, I'm proposing that the two house systems are two ways of looking at the same life.

All the best - Rhys

I've been thinking about why it is that Saturn is often quite difficult in people's charts. After all, it is the planet that is the closest to the Primum Mobile and accordingly the closest to God, right? So why does it cause so much trouble?

When I speak of God, I'm not speaking of any particular God, of course. I'm speaking of whatever one's God concept is, whether it is the god of one of the semitic religions, or the God and the Goddess, or Buddha, Krishna, Shiva, Kali, who or whatever. Or god without form, god as universal mind, etc.

My favorite god concept is one given us by kabbalist philosopher Maimonides who somewhere in "Guide for the Perplexed" defined G*d as Nothing. (Note the capital "n"). On a deeper level he was referring to the Tree of Life and the Ain and Ain Sof, but for the rest of us punters he was simply saying that no one really knows who or what god is, so G*d is best defined as Nothing.

So Saturn is as close to this "Nothing" as things get in the manifest universe of the traditionals, and Saturn is pretty far out there, no wonder it is so cold and dry!

Anyway, the idea I had was that Saturn is difficult to deal with because it represents the will of God in our natal charts, being so close to the Primum Mobile.

For example, I'm in a H7 profection year, and my H7 is ruled by Saturn. So a few years from now when I look back at this time, probably what I will remember most is the various difficult lessons that are coming up with regard to my various business partnerships. This has already reared its ugly head!

My partner is in a H4 profection year, and her H4 is in Capricorn! Guess what? One issue after another has come up over various properties she owns, and she has had to deal with her mother losing her memory and no longer being able to take care of herself.

Whether it is by profection, zodiacal releasing period, primary or secondary direction or transit, when Saturn is activated, we can expect to be dealing with stuff that we might not have chosen to deal with unless we were forced to, but as waybread said, "Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism."

If it weren't for Saturn, I would just sit in front of the TV all day and get fat!

Kind regards - Rhys

''For example, the emanation deriving from Saturn tends to pull things together, while that deriving from Mars tends to provoke motion in them; however, at the level of material things, the passive generative receptable receives the one as rigidity and coldness, and the other as a degree of inflammation exceeding moderation. So then, does not what causes decay and want of symmetry come about through the differentiating, material and passive deviance of the recipients'' - Iamblichus, On the Mysteries - https://books.google.bg/books/about/De_Mysteriis.html?id=UJuDa8G7RikC&redir_esc=y - page 69

Iamblichus' point is that the planets are not inherently bad, but their emanations reaching the sublunar realm, and mingling with imperfect beings makes their influences to be perceived as malefic on Earth.

Rhys said:

I agree completely with what you say about Saturn, what a great way to put it!

And what a lovely fifth house, waybread! You're so lucky to be a grandfather, I wish I was. I keep asking my daughter when she's going to make me a grandfather and she says the French equivalent of "Papa! Hold your horses!" (and to mind my own business...)

Nice mutual reception with Mercury, the Lord of the Hour Marker.

So it looks like Mercury Venus and Sun/Mars are all in Aquarius, correct? And they are all ruled by Placidus H12 Saturn. Usually when we have planets in H12 in natal it indicates that there was purification work to be done. I can't help but look at the chart in whole signs, which would put Jupiter in H5 and explain how well your kids turned out and would put the other planets in H6, putting a lot of emphasis possibly on the work you did before you retired. Does that make any sense?

I'm not saying this as an either/or scenario, I'm proposing that the two house systems are two ways of looking at the same life.

All the best - Rhys

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Thanks, Rhys. Cool hat!

Actually, I'm a grand-mère instead of a grand-papa. It's OK. I'm often mistaken for a man on this forum. It doesn't faze me.

My Mars just nipped into Pisces.

I like to think of different house systems as showing different facets of a person. It's like photographing someone's face. People look different with a frontal portrait than they do with a profile or oblique view.

I also think whole signs have meaning in my life. In another type of astrology unmentionable on this board, a 12th--6th house axis is called a "serve or suffer" lifetime. I don't know about that, but I do feel a strong inner push to be of service to other people, which I mostly manifest these days by reading charts for people. I think the 6th says something about the person's inner workings beyond poor health or their relationship with people who provide services.

There is a lovely Hindu saying:

"When I don't know who I am, I serve you.
When I know who I am, I am you."

I don't know if you count out-of-sign oppositions. I would, but by progression my natal (retrograde) Saturn is now in Leo, opposite sun. Possibly because of the traditional Saturnine rulership of Aquarius, Jupiter in Capricorn, as well as the opposition, I sometimes think I'm becoming too Saturnine. You know: duty, responsibility, disapproval of anything frivolous. The 5th house and Leo moon, in contrast, need a certain amount of fun and joy in life, so the trick is to keep these two in balance.

Also, Saturn supposedly rules one's father in a night birth, and I experienced mine as a very Saturnine sort of personality.

Anyway, this thread Isn't About Me, except insofar it might be useful to see how Saturn shows up for someone.

Rhys, I'm not much of a theologian, but at the beginning of Genesis 1, we have a God who works in darkness and chaos, in a matrix that is "unformed and void." The work of creation in Genesis 1-2 is essentially the creation of order. With the creation of humans we then get concepts of morality, responsibility, prohibitions, and commandments. (I. e., "Don't eat the fruit," "You shouldn't have killed your brother," and so on.) Breaking the moral code, whether stated or unstated, results in punishment. The many commandments handed down on Mount Sinai are effectly worded as a contract. Follow them, and you'll get rain in the proper season and abundant harvests. Disobey them and you'll be punished with military conflict and drought. The earth itself is the witness to this contract.

To me this all sounds very Saturnine. Yes, of course, bad things happen to good people, let alone to little kids, through no fault of their own. But I think of ordinary life. If I overspend my credit card like there's no tomorrow, the bills nevertheless come due, with interest. The bills aren't somehow my hard luck, but the foreseeable and logical consequence of my actions.

Then throw in some Greek tragedy and Stoicism. Yeah, the gods don't particularly care about us, and oftentimes life reeks, but try to comport yourself with dignity, nonetheless.

This may be a more contemporary take on Saturn. In former centuries of traditional astrology (and the cognoscenti here can correct me if I'm wrong) Saturn was more or less the bin into which nastiness and hardships got stored.

I suppose the various faiths' religious scriptures and commentaries indicate what divine consciousness (in whatever form or name) wants of humans. I think C. S. Lewis said that God doesn't particularly care if we're happy: He only wants us to be good.

But back to the concept of God as nothingness. I think of divine consciousness as the space in which energy and matter occur. I think this is an ancient concept. In Genesis 2, God breathes life into Adam. Our words spirit, inspire, and respiration have the same root. (Cf. Greek pneuma, Hebrew ruah where breath and spirit get fused.) Today we know that the air is made up of chemicals and contains a lot of organic (pollen) and inorganic (dust) matter, but anciently I think that the air was about as close as they came to the concept of empty space (i. e, nothingness.)

Sorry that your partner is dealing with a mother in poor health. But actually, this might be part of the hard-headed realism of Saturn. Yes: people grow old, lose their health, and then die. It isn't pleasant, and care-giving to an elderly parent can take a big toll on the adult child, but those are the rules, essentially.

Best wishes for your studies, Rhys, and thanks for posting them here. You've given me lots to think about.

petosiris said:

''For example, the emanation deriving from Saturn tends to pull things together, while that deriving from Mars tends to provoke motion in them; however, at the level of material things, the passive generative receptable receives the one as rigidity and coldness, and the other as a degree of inflammation exceeding moderation. So then, does not what causes decay and want of symmetry come about through the differentiating, material and passive deviance of the recipients'' - Iamblichus, On the Mysteries - https://books.google.bg/books/about/De_Mysteriis.html?id=UJuDa8G7RikC&redir_esc=y - page 69

Iamblichus' point is that the planets are not inherently bad, but their emanations reaching the sublunar realm, and mingling with imperfect beings makes their influences to be perceived as malefic on Earth.

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Wow, I really have to get back to my neoplatonists. What a great quote, thanks, petosirus!

I'm thinking that I have a tendency to think of the malefics as negative because the effects they have do not correspond with most people's association with "good". So perhaps when I am going through a period where Saturn is the time lord, as I am now in the midst of, one approach might be to change my attitude to what is good...

Anyway, it's not as if I have a choice in the matter. What comes up in Saturn is what comes up. so I might as well make the best of it!

Thanks again for this wonderful quote.

Regarding the sublunar, the impression that I have is that the energy that makes it to sublunar levels is corrupted somehow. Is this consistent with neoplatonic philosophy, petosiris?