Hyleg and alcoccoden

dr. farr

Well-known member
Right, makes sense (within the context of the Alchabitius house system model being used)

Note that in whole sign, the Moon is in the angular 7th house.

Actually in practice I have little experience with Hylegs, etc: I myself have always been satisfied with taking the Pars Hyleg, for all purposes, whic, in my line, have mostly been for astro-therapeutic delineations...
 

paraskeyh

Well-known member
1. Using Bernadette Brady's favored Alcabitius Houses, your sun is in the 9th at 18 Leo 25 39 (because cusp of 10th house begins at 19 Leo 30 02) Sun is therefore not in 10th but according at least to Ptolomy can be Hyleg since Sun is in 9th

With Kepler my sun is in tenth,with astro.com calculations is in 9 house so what to do?

... however nevertheless Saturn does have some dignity in the degree occupied by the Sun because Sun at that degree is in the Face of Saturn

Where did you see it?

Sun is in close sextile with Saturn therefore Saturn (only just) qualifies as Alcoccoden

Lets check if any other planets are aspecting Sun :smile:[/QUOTE]
No other planet aspects the sun except Saturn,i dont see any aspects with moon ,mars and jupiter.Am i doing something wrong?
 

paraskeyh

Well-known member
Scorpio Jupiter has no dignity at the degree occupied by Leo Sun so is immediately out of the contest as is Scorpio Mars for the same reason (although Mars is strong being in own Triplicity, Term and Face)

Saturn appears to have won the contest by being the sole contender who has any dignity at all in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun

Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?

If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet. :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

Well-known member
If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet. :smile:

I agree :joyful:(relief).So i dont count th Hylegs years at all?
 

paraskeyh

Well-known member
Ok :sad:, how much is the deviation in years ?I mean if we say 57 maybe is 53 or 60?And i want to check the second chart also.

My thoughts for second chart:Is sun the Hyleg?The chart is diurnal and Sun is in masculine sign but in 12 house so i dont think it is.Moon is in cadent house but not in feminine sign so isnt the moon either.Because the chart is Conjuctional i take the degree of the ascedant.Venus conjucts the ascedant and has dignity there.So the Ascedant is the Hyleg and Venus the Alcoccoden,also Mars sextile the ascedant but has no dignity there.With Venus as Alcoccoden i take the Middle or the Greater because the sign of Virgo is the worst but still Venus is in first House.Also Venus is in semi-sextile with Mercury is this counts? I mean semi-squares ,semi-sextiles etc..
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ok :sad:, how much is the deviation in years ?I mean if we say 57 maybe is 53 or 60?And i want to check the second chart also.

Better to take time and take care to study the method with care and eliminate all possible eventualities before drawing any hasty conclusions... after all, there are concerns regarding Saturn being in detriment in the degree occupied by the Sun as well as having only minor dignity... basically Saturn appeared to have won because Saturn was the sole entrant to the contest :smile:

However on page 9, note 20 states: "Bonatti considered that a planet in a Cadent house within about eight degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular" which, so far as the chart we are studying is concerned, indicates that, since both Mars and the Moon are within eight degrees of the 1st and 7th houses respectively, then presumably either Mars or the Moon could qualify as Alcoccoden. Since Bonatti uses Alacibitus houses our next step must be (while keeping Saturn in mind) to analyse both Mars and the Moon for their potentiality as Alcoccodens.

So let's complete our analysis of chart 1 by checking the dignities and debilities of both Mars and the Moon - using the points system at this link http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Would you agree or disagree? :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

Well-known member
Better to take time and take care to study the method with care and eliminate all possible eventualities before drawing any hasty conclusions... after all, there are concerns regarding Saturn being in detriment in the degree occupied by the Sun as well as having only minor dignity... basically Saturn appeared to have won because Saturn was the sole entrant to the contest :smile:

However on page 9, note 20 states: "Bonatti considered that a planet in a Cadent house within about eight degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular" which, so far as the chart we are studying is concerned, indicates that, since both Mars and the Moon are within eight degrees of the 1st and 7th houses respectively, then presumably either Mars or the Moon could qualify as Alcoccoden. Since Bonatti uses Alacibitus houses our next step must be (while keeping Saturn in mind) to analyse both Mars and the Moon for their potentiality as Alcoccodens.

So let's complete our analysis of chart 1. Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

I agree with you 100% thats why in one of my posts i said i am not so sure about the sun-saturn and i asked if my moon conjucts the seventh house even is in sixth.And Jupiter also could be alcoccoden?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I agree with you 100% thats why in one of my posts i said i am not so sure about the sun-saturn and i asked if my moon conjucts the seventh house even is in sixth.And Jupiter also could be alcoccoden?

When analysing a method it is best to check all possible analytical procedures: Saturn, although in detriment does have dignity (albeit the least dignity) and therefore is the sole qualifier following the initial part of the method. Remember, ancient astrologers did not input everything into computers but used their own judgement.

Because Bernadette Brady mentions Bonatti's eight degree rule there is no harm in applying it in order to check it out, so our next step now is to assess the strengths of Jupiter, Mars and the Moon regarding which planet has the greatest essential dignity and Skyscript has a great page that shows exactly how to add and subtract for each planet in order to guage planetary strength according to this particular method. As you have said, Jupiter is a possible contender also http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html :smile:
 

paraskeyh

Well-known member
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.
dr. farr drew our attention to Mercury and the sequence of responses was as follows
Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??
the response was:
According to Ptolemy and Bonatti method (at least as outlined by Bernadette Brady) and as previously delineated

1. (a) Ptolemy says Leo Sun is Hyleg.
(b) Bonatti agrees Leo Sun is Hyleg

2. Any planetary candidate for Alcoccoden must (a) aspect Hyleg (b) have some dignity in the degree occupied by Hyleg - Saturn fulfils this rule

3. However Virgo Mercury is Disjunct/Inconjunct Sun therefore not in classical aspect to Leo Sun Hyleg and cannot be Alcoccoden

I agree Strong Virgo Mercury is in good aspect to Taurus Moon - however, according to Alcabitius Houses Moon is in 6th House therefore cannot be considered as Hyleg

We are using Alcabitius Houses simply because that is the house system of choice for Bernadette Brady who has illustrated her method (which is derived from Ptolemy, Bonatti et al by using Alcabitius...) Obviously different results would have been obtained by using an alternative House system, such as Whole Sign for example :smile:
Bernadette did not include the eight degree rule in the main assessment but simply placed it as a minor added note and dr. farr agreed
Right, makes sense (within the context of the Alchabitius house system model being used)

Note that in whole sign, the Moon is in the angular 7th house.

Actually in practice I have little experience with Hylegs, etc: I myself have always been satisfied with taking the Pars Hyleg, for all purposes, whic, in my line, have mostly been for astro-therapeutic delineations...

The assessment continues do check the link which guides you in guaging planetary strength http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

Well-known member
Something that concerns me is that in Bonatti's Method says -The four rulers(rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term) and not face,detri or fall what do you think about this?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Something that concerns me is that in Bonatti's Method says -The four rulers(rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term) and not face,detri or fall what do you think about this?

It is good that you are observant and enjoy questioning everything... you are correct... The four rulers domicile, exaltation, triplicity and term are the strongest. Face has the least strength, it is only a very minor dignity and so Bonatti would have eliminated Saturn immediately. We can only assume that Ptolemy would have accepted Saturn as Alcoccoden because of the very slight dignity of 'Face'... however we do not know for certain because apparently Ptolemy never wrote that.

But Bonatti did. Therefore at this stage we can briefly summarise:
(1) As far as Ptolemy is concerned Saturn fulfils sufficiently the criteria for Alcoccoden
(2) however, we have our doubts - because of Saturn's sorry state
(3) So we now continue with the assessment by following Bonatti's rules

on astro.com when you have your natal chart on screen we can click on 'View the additional tables PDF' which then produces a table showing speed of planets (needed to calculate one of the essential dignities/debilites on the link I gave earlier http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html) :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.

If you mean that you think that the Moon could be the Hyleg, well it could be, but only if Sun does not fulfil conditions for Hyleg but in this case the Sun has been established as Hyleg.

Currently then, since Saturn is eliminated by Bonatti (if not Ptolemy) then we check any planets in aspect to the Hyleg (in this case the Sun) to establish which of these could be Alcoccoden.

Jupiter and Mars are conjunct in Scorpio and of the two Mars has the greater dignity (Jupiter has no dignity at all in Scorpio) whereas Mars is domicile, Triplicity, Term ruler, so Mars could be Alcoccoden

Now to check the Moon.
Moon is in Taurus in own Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity and Term and it seems to me that the Moon in this case has more dignity than either Mars or Jupiter and therefore Moon is the Alcoccoden

So Sun is Hyleg and Moon is the Alcoccoden, according to Bonatti :smile:
 
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paraskeyh

Well-known member
If you mean that you think that the Moon could be the Hyleg, well it could be, but only if Sun does not fulfil conditions for Hyleg but in this case the Sun has been established as Hyleg.

Currently then, since Saturn is eliminated by Bonatti (if not Ptolemy) then we check any planets in aspect to the Hyleg (in this case the Sun) to establish which of these could be Alcoccoden.

Jupiter and Mars are conjunct in Scorpio and of the two Mars has the greater dignity (Jupiter has no dignity at all in Scorpio) whereas Mars is domicile, Triplicity, Term ruler, so Mars could be Alcoccoden

Now to check the Moon.
Moon is in Taurus in own Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity and Term and it seems to me that the Moon in this case has more dignity than either Mars or Jupiter and therefore Moon is the Alcoccoden

So Sun is Hyleg and Moon is the Alcoccoden, according to Bonatti :smile:

Jup i am a little bit confused here,sure moon is very strong, but according to Bonnati the Alcoccoden must be in aspect with the Hyleg and to has the greatest dignity in Hylegs place and moon does not fulfil that.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Jup i am a little bit confused here,sure moon is very strong, but according to Bonnati the Alcoccoden must be in aspect with the Hyleg and to has the greatest dignity in Hylegs place and moon does not fulfil that.

As you say, Moon has no dignity in degree of Hyleg
so the search for Alcoccoden according to Bonatti continues
next step is to find out whether Jupiter or Mars have any dignity in the Hylegs place. If so, then either one is Alcoccoden :smile:
 
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