suicide

star2858

Well-known member
Nexus7 said:
Star2858

What I think is that is dangerous to look for aspects in your chart as predisposing you towards suicide. I don't know the rest of your chart, but Jupiter/Neptune is possibly a litle idealistic in the face of a frequently harsh and unfair world, the rest of your chart may or may not suggest a sensitive nature.

You sound as though things have got on top of you and I would suggest that it might be a better plan to look at the roots of what is bringing about your current state of mind, rather than assuming your horoscope is telling you to exit it without trying to resolve whatever is disturbing you.

I think you're right Nexus7. To be honest, seeing those indicators in my chart merely confirmed what i already knew. It didn't make me think about doing it anymore. Maybe even, it made me think it might be worthwhile to see what planets are transitting to know 'when' it might be worthwhile to do this act anyway.
 

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Nexus7

Well-known member
I have heard that theory too, that a suicide can mean twice or three times as many problems next time round - either in an afterlife or in another incarnation. The Catholics were very hard on suicides, calling it a sin against the holy spirit and therefore inviting moire serious eternal punishments than usual. Raymond Moody emphasises that suicides do not go to a nice place in any NDE visions - even if it is not boiling lakes of lava and brimstone, apparently, such NDE-ers do get the message that this route is not the answer.

Anyway, all the major religions counsel against it. Atheists like Dorothy Rowe who have written books for depressives full of wise saws and instances just point out that this act does have consequences for the people you leave behind and in in any case, all death brings is death, not any kind of solution to your problems.

That is a wide trine between Jupiter and Neptune anyway, Star2858. And as you have posted yout chart....that is some challenging squares you have there natally from Saturn to Sun/Mars. You are coming up to a Saturn square its own place - 21 can be a surprisingly tough age for people testing out their untried skills and confidence and yours may well have already taken a few dents along the way. There may also be a tendency to turn your anger against yourself and it may be important to find ways to stand up for yourself assertively rather than just react in the heat of the moment, only to regret it later.
 

neo

Banned
The theory mentioned in the previous couple of posts would mean that the gods are power trippers, and cruel, sending souls back here to endure more "learning". Wouldn't it make more sense to teach someone lessons without saturn like limitations, or without neptune to cloud issues? Learning would be so much more enjoyable then.
 
neo said:
The theory mentioned in the previous couple of posts would mean that the gods are power trippers, and cruel, sending souls back here to endure more "learning". Wouldn't it make more sense to teach someone lessons without saturn like limitations, or without neptune to cloud issues? Learning would be so much more enjoyable then.

its quite possible they are power trippers....sadistic power trippers....i'll be happy eventually to meet whoever is running the show...I have bones to pick :D
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Katles said:
Does anyone have any comments about possible suicide found in a birth chart.
Hi all,

I studied the chart of one of my favourite authors and am putting below all that leapt out at me in the face of the main question of this thread.

Virginia Woolf - writer - born Jan 25, 1882; at 12.15 pm; in London (UK) // died Mar 18, 1941 by drowning herself

Natal chart:
Primarily fixed house occupancy in :-
-Aquarius (lord of 10) through Sun and Mer
-Taurus (part of 12-H) through stellium of Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto and Chiron. Aries-Moon was also in 12-H. Saturn and Jupiter are about 11° apart, and so are Saturn and Moon
Fixed signs of Sco & Leo did not have any planets

Solar return (1941) showed:
  • Tr-Pluto (in fixed sign of Leo & conj IC) opp Sun (Sun conj MC); opp. Venus; opp. MC; squared Saturn
  • Tr-Nep squaring Mars Mars=Violence ; Nep = Water
  • Tr-Mars (in fire sign-Sag) squaring natal Uranus = typical accident aspect
  • Stellium over 12-H ; Tr- Venus and Moon over 8
  • Tr-Chiron also in lose conj to IC squaring the Moon (-in12) and opp Sun and Venus : could Chiron here explain the self-inflicted wound (drowning)
Hard Transits on the D-Day, when V.Woolf committed suicide by drowning herself:
  • Sun (in water sign-Pisces) squared natal Mars
  • Venus (in water-Pisces) opposed natal Uranus
  • Merc (in water Pisces) squared natal Pluto- in 12
  • Moon (in water-Scorpio) opposed natal Pluto
  • Chiron (in water-Cancer) opposed natal Venus and Sun, and squared Moon in 12
  • Saturn and Jupiter (in fixed, earth sign- Taurus) were conjunct natal Jupiter and Neptune- in 12; and squared natal Mercury- in 10/ Aqu
  • Uranus was conjunct natal Pluto in 12
Note that the Sun and all transitting personal planets were in water signs on the D-day
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Nate of the 12th said:
Try this one
Wow, that's a heavy 12th house there - but it's in a fire sign with Aries on the cusp - which should make it a bit 'livelier' than it's usual self. Also, you have planets in the 5th (= fun, leisure & pleasure), which should also sort of balance things up a bit.:) However, how would you say the tight Pluto square Moon affects you?
 

Nate of the 12th

Well-known member
If you consider staring at the walls, having no mood to do anything - lively :)
Moon square Pluto makes me 100% invested emotionally in whatever I experience. When you're depressed it can be quite problematic :rolleyes:
I don't know what "fun" is. Everything I do has this stale taste to it.
I'd hang myself but I hate myself so much I want me to suffer
I guess pain causes madness :38:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi again Nate,

The first step to 'liveliness' is stepping out of your shell and talking about stuff- which you are quite openly doing. I agree that such a 'weighty' 12-H can cause one to withdraw oneself more often than usual, sort of hide oneself and think and brood..., but 12-H is also the house of (positive) transformation. It is where you meet with your past, your unconscious self, only to resurface again - sort of after recharging your batteries :). I have seen many celebrities for e.g. (taking their e.g. only because they are in the limelight) have planets in the 12 H, and they lead very 'public' lives. I think that people with planets in 12 are people with a lot of depth, ones who actually understand life.

More importantly Nate, all these are just astrological explanations, but astrology doesn't force you to be the way you 'choose' to be!!!
Hey, btw, was curious about the Moon-Pluto square as I have it too (my Moon and Mars both get squared by Pluto), and yes you're right about getting pretty emotionally charged with this aspect ;)

I think astrology helps us to understand ourselves better -our strengths and esp our weeknesses, so we must take advantage of this fact, and work on the latter to improve our lives. Hey, don't forget that you have a wonderfully occupied 5-H, so just go and have some fun :p

Take care
aquarius7000
 
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Nate of the 12th

Well-known member
I don't blame it just on the 12th house. Granted, this house easily exacerbates and inflates problems in the chart, but I put most of the blame on that Capricrone Moon (a fallen location already prone to gloom) reflecting fiery (squares), destructive charges off of that Mars opposite Pluto. I have also found earthy signs tend to have a certain morbid touch to them which can further exacerbate negativity in the chart http://www.astrologyindepth.com/Earth_element they seem to hold on to the negativity
I'm serious about not being able to have fun. The only thing that ever excited me (in a good way) was skiing in France, but that's really too expensive for me and again, I just hate me :eek:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Nate of the 12th said:
.. I put most of the blame on that Capricrone Moon (a fallen location already prone to gloom) reflecting fiery (squares), destructive charges off of that Mars opposite Pluto. I have also found earthy signs tend to have a certain morbid touch to them which can further exacerbate negativity in the chart
Agree with you that a Capricorn Moon is more prone to melancholy than say a Leo-Moon. But Cap-Moon, or Moon in an earth sign, also means more loyal and stable feelings/ emotions. These are the just the 2 sides of a coin, and it's up to the native to live out the positive or the negative ;). Hey, I also have a Cap Moon, and now that we are discussing this in so much detail, I will let you know that my Cap-Moon is quite badly afflicted. It is squared by Pluto, opposed by Saturn (so there's the double Capricorn touch), and is also in conj to Mars. Now I can't change this, but can teach myself to change this weakness into a strength by living out more the Moon-Venus sextile side in my chart. My hating my Moon or myself won't help me in the least, but concentrating on the positives in my chart will give me joy and make me more optimistic.
Nate of the 12th said:
I'm serious about not being able to have fun. The only thing that ever excited me (in a good way) was skiing in France, but that's really too expensive for me and again, I just hate me :eek:
Well, I think you are on the right track - you have discovered what you like and this activity might be expensive right now, but what the heck, it doesn't have to be this way for the rest of your life, and hey, skiing is not like going into space. And surely if I were to lock myself up in a room and gape at the walls, then how can I expect to have fun. I mean chanting the mantra - 'I can not have fun' is certainly no remedy - so again Nate - make use of your 5th house planets- concentrate on those and let the Leo side of it rollick you :D . Perhaps this is your Karma - learning to be more relaxed in life and taking it easy :)
 
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Jeremy

Well-known member
Interesting. My wife has Capricorn Moon, t-squared by Ve conj. Ur opposing Chiron and she has never been depressed in her life. Pragmatic, taciturn perhaps, quite tough emotionally (actually very tough emotionally) but never in a million years depressed.
I agree with Aq7k on this one, depression doesn't seem to me to be a Capricorn Moon quality, Cap. would never want to be prone to such weakness, for water signs the emotions are much more fraught.
 

Torgo

Active member
I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.
 

Jeremy

Well-known member
Torgo said:
I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.

I would say your Neptune rising square Saturn in worrisome Virgo has much more potential relevance in depression related problems than Moon in Capricorn.
 

Nate of the 12th

Well-known member
Surely there are exceptions to every rule in astrology, and I found Uranus and Aquarius influences somewhat contraindicatory to depression, because it gives the ability to "disconnect" emotionally. Also the problems with Capricorn seem to come up when the person is not working at some goal, not trying to climb some mountain. My Pluto influences and 12th / 8th house combos make me spiritually question everything, so I cannot go work at some supermarket chain just to get myself busy, because the fake-feeling it gives me just depresses me further.

I know Air signs often have the ability to use intellectual ideation to change any negative focus, I see my Gemini mom doing it and she's often tries to sell it to me, but my negativity is too consolidated and I just despise life. I hate having to work hard at everything and not being able to feel any enjoyment (taurus thing). Neither can I fake enjoyment, as much as relatives and friends wish me to.....
 

Jeremy

Well-known member
I am not a big fan of rules in astrology, but of course they do exist. To say that planet A in sign B = effect C though is overly deterministic. I would say that very often, people who read their own charts, the same as people who read their own tarot are going to be prone to reaching the conclusions that suit their subjective deductions.

Personally, I look at my own astrology in a fairly abstract way, if I want a properly objective opinion I ask one of the astrologers here who I trust to give me their view, I have asked for help from Gaer, Starlink and EJ53 to name but a few and I have found in all cases that they provided insights to an issue which I really could not see very clearly.

What I will say about Moon in Capricorn is that it works toward stability, toward practical goals that fulfill emotional objectives, that makes sure that the environment is supportive. I honestly cannot say that it is associated with depression unless you perhaps bracket a dry, dour, undemonstrative demeanour into the same diagnostic criteria.

I would say that the Moon does nothing consistently, so if you are consistently unable to find the joy in life then look to Saturn, an afflicted Jupiter, slow and difficult transiting conditions, perhaps by Solar Arc or secondary progression.

In the case cited above, I would consider Neptune in Sagittarius to give a real yearning for the far-off and profoundly prophetic, it diffuses the already expanding domain of Jupiter, so it is a highly contemplative, spiritual and philosophical placement that rising personalises and creates a need to express that very delicate and refined feeling, but in square to Saturn in Virgo, which demands almost the opposite, a fussy, pedantic, nit-picking quality that in the 9th directly contradicts the dreamy expansiveness of Neptune; that creates a real drag on the primary mode of self-expression, weighs down the spirit with self-criticism, creates a struggle between idealism and materialism, and the worrying nature of Saturn would really depress the spirit denoted by Neptune.

And what is depression astrologically? Is it to do with the emotions or the spirit? In my own experience of it, true depression is like an existentialist angst, not a functional, immediate, fluctuation. Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn. Furthermore, I am not ruling out the possibility that Moon in Capricorn can be configured in a case of depression; I am only saing that in my experience, Moon in Capricorn does not incline to depression in the clinical sense.
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
I'd hang myself but I hate myself so much I want me to suffer
I guess pain causes madness

This comment in particular attracted my attention because it reflects an attitude that I myself once had. Therefore, perhaps it would be pertinent to explore what aspects could incline one to be particularly prone to self-criticism, and in extreme cases, self-hatred. I'm a bit biased in this regard, but I think that afflicted planets in the first house could incline one to have such a self-concept, or perhaps an afflicted first house ruler.

I personally don't believe that anyone is "destined" to commit suicide, although indicators in one's natal chart may provide a disposition that would incline one to take one's own life. Transits and progressions can activate certain planets at certain times and exacerbate self-destructive thoughts and behaviors that may ultimately lead to suicide. I know from personally experience that progressed Moon in Scorpio is extremely difficult; a series of unfortunate events began point shortly after my progressed Moon entered Scorpio, and things only got worse when the progressed Moon entered my eighth house and conjunct my natal Pluto. I'm sure there are other indicators, but I'd check your progressions in particular because they tend to indicate changes in one's internal environment while transits tend to indicate events that occur in the physical world.

EDIT: I found Nate's chart, and the first thing I noticed was that he has a lot of quincunx aspects in his natal chart and various planets in his Taurus stellium form the apex of a giant yod configuration. Depending upon which planets you consider, the apex planet can be Mars, Mercury, or the Sun. That stellium is under a considerable amount of pressure because these planets also square the nodal axis. I'd research yods and see what you find; I haven't discovered any link to suicide yet, but I have noticed that yod configurations can incline one towards obsessive-compulsive behavior. I need to study more charts to ascertain this, however.

Your natal Saturn is placed strongly by sign; Saturn is exalted in Libra. You are fortunate, however, that Venus is located in Taurus, the sign of its rulership. Venus very well may be the final dispositor of your chart...

Well, I have read almost everywhere that hards aspects involving Saturn esp with Moon or Venus, or predominance of planets (esp personal planets) in Capricorn incline the native more towards depression and/or pessimism.

Thanks for this link, aquarius7000! Again, I can attest to this from personal experience because my natal Moon is loosely square my Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and this conjunction tightly squares my natal Sun-Venus-Mercury conjunction. Fortunately, I am not as inclined towards depression and pessimism as I once was, although I am still inclined to be rather self-critical and unforgiving of mistakes. I'm wondering if my generation may be particularly vulnerable due to the outer-planet stellium in Capricorn and Pluto in Scorpio.

What year were you born, Nate?

Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn.

Planets at 14 degrees in the cardinal signs incline one towards suicidal thoughts? :eek:

Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree? Is there an "orb"? My natal Saturn is located at 13 Capricorn 41, which is almost fourteen degrees, and my natal Sun/Venus/Mercury conjunction spans 15 Aries 36 to 16 Aries 30. Obviously, I've never committed suicide, but I'm curious if planets located in these degrees could incline one towards suicidal thoughts...

Arian Maverick
 
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Nate of the 12th

Well-known member
There's an often cited rule of threes - if you have three indications of the same effect, the effect will be significant enough in the personality. I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house. Then four (!) personal planets in the 12th house can also be considered. I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars) Btw I also read tarot for myself :) works like a charm!

Hi Arian Maverick, I also do not believe people are destined to anything. I don't believe the planets influence us, but instead reflect us. I was born in 1981... my chart is in this thread somewhere

Aquarius7000 what house is your Moon in?
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
I don't think anybody has stated on this thread that mere placement of any planet in Capricorn would incline the person to 'suicidal' thoughts, and 'such' thoughts certainly cannot be equated to pessimism or depression.

Astrology by itself is quite a debated subject, yet one has to go by certain parameters, or generalisations, or even theories in order to be able to discuss or debate a topic.

Just like the more or less established rule that Moon does nothing consistently, it is quite well known that the weaker side of the taciturn, stable and tough Capricorn can be severity, pessimism or also depression. Every sign has certain traits associated to itself, and these traits include both strengths and weaknesses, which get activated by certain natal aspects, and then again by specific transits.
Again hardly anyone would say that having one's Sun or Mer alone in the astrological sign of Capricorn would make the native depressive, it's always a play of many hard aspects that might make the native's mind 'more' or 'more easily' inclined to such dire thoughts.

Also people who might read their own charts or those of their family members might have certain ready factors that could come close to ascertaining theories found in astrology books and articles, or these people might also be more inclined to refute those theories for whatever reasons.

This is an Astrology and Psychology thread, where we are using our knowledge of astrology more or less as the basis to understand certain behaviours or thought types.
At the end of the day, everybody should be able to share his/her thoughts, opinions, and even experiences!

Cheers
 

Jeremy

Well-known member
Arian Maverick said:
Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree?
According to Ebertin, just the 14 degree point. I did not mean to worry you of course, there would need to be other factors I would say. Please don't be alarmed on my account AM, there are diffiuclt health issues at almost every degree based upon this sytem; it is a psychic predisposition that creates a problem of course.

nate said:
I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house.
I think you are slightly misapprehending my point. I did not for one minute want to disprove your depression; I only wanted to say that Moon in Capricorn on its own does not predispose to depression. Moon in any sign square Pluto in the 8th gives a very Scorpio cast to the emotions.

I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets
I quoted the case of Neptune rising, which I am sure any astrologer would agree personalises its effect whether or not it is aspected to inner planets.
 
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