SniperBomber328
Well-known member
---------------------
Last edited:
Need help with triplicities, Don't understand!!
- Thread starter Niplan
- Start date
Vista
Well-known member
Hum, not sure what you mean by "over the ASC line." If your Sun is in the 1st house regardless of where it is even if it's conjunct and slightly past the ASC by degree then the moon rules, if it's conjunct your ASC but still in the 12th, then your Sun rules because it would be above the horizon.
Also consider what Dr Farr has said that ancient rulers used much larger age ranges, i.e. 0-40, 40-80, 80-120. I personally am going by this.
SniperBomber328
Well-known member
---------------------
Last edited:
Got your chart handy?
The other way to do it, and it's accurate for most people, is to take an honest look at your life and see which triplicity ruler matches it the best.
If your Sun is above the ascendant then it's your sect light. Why that would change with different house systems is beyond me. Even whole signs usually mark the ascending degree. Is it above that? If so, it's above the horizon.
Granted, for other purposes of delineation it would be conjunct the ascendant, but all we're trying to determine here is whether it's above or below the line. Unless, like so many of my clients, you're one of those troublemakers who was born with the sun right ON the ASC/DSC line!
That takes a bit more work.
ETA I just found your chart in another thread. Sun is above the ascendant, so your triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars, and the Moon, in that order.
The other way to do it, and it's accurate for most people, is to take an honest look at your life and see which triplicity ruler matches it the best.
If your Sun is above the ascendant then it's your sect light. Why that would change with different house systems is beyond me. Even whole signs usually mark the ascending degree. Is it above that? If so, it's above the horizon.
Granted, for other purposes of delineation it would be conjunct the ascendant, but all we're trying to determine here is whether it's above or below the line. Unless, like so many of my clients, you're one of those troublemakers who was born with the sun right ON the ASC/DSC line!
That takes a bit more work.
ETA I just found your chart in another thread. Sun is above the ascendant, so your triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars, and the Moon, in that order.
Last edited:
SniperBomber328
Well-known member
---------------------
Last edited:
SniperBomber328
Well-known member
---------------------
Last edited:
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
ANTON GARTHGot your chart handy?
The other way to do it, and it's accurate for most people, is to take an honest look at your life and see which triplicity ruler matches it the best.
If your Sun is above the ascendant then it's your sect light. Why that would change with different house systems is beyond me. Even whole signs usually mark the ascending degree. Is it above that? If so, it's above the horizon.
Granted, for other purposes of delineation it would be conjunct the ascendant, but all we're trying to determine here is whether it's above or below the line. Unless, like so many of my clients, you're one of those troublemakers who was born with the sun right ON the ASC/DSC line!
That takes a bit more work.
ETA I just found your chart in another thread. Sun is above the ascendant, so your triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars, and the Moon, in that order.
ILLUSTRATED VIDEO GUIDE
HOW TO FIND THE LEADING LIGHT OF THE CHART
and THEN
BASED ON THE 'LEADING LIGHT' OF THE CHART
DETERMINING THE TRIPLICITY RULERS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0CsZtVXLE&list=UUmrs_B9DM7Xc9TZWmjxpMDw
Flapjacks
Well-known member
I've read all this and it's still not sinking in very well (also have read some articles).
I have a nocturnal chart, with Moon in feminine sign Capricorn. So the triplicity rulers are Moon, Venus and Mars. So the Moon is the 1st Trigon lord... of Moon?? So I'd look at it's own placement to see whether it's trouble? It is in 8th house whole sign, and by sign/house it is oppose Sun, inconjunct Mercury, sextile Jupiter, trine Venus and semi-sextile Saturn (I think). Capricorn is also the sign of Moon's detriment.
8H seems like a bad placement, just by the fact that it is inconjunct the 3rd house, where Moon is in "joy". I'm thinking, when determining how the house position is going to affect the expression of a planet, the aspect relationship between the house it is in and the house of that planet's joy will give an indication. For instance, Saturn is in joy in 12th, and in my chart it is located in the 7th whole house, so that would be an inconjunct. Saturn has difficulties expressing it's best qualities in the 7th, and it's "malefic" status will likely manifest because of it. However, the lesser malefic Mars is in the 8th house whole sign, making a sextile aspect to the 6th house, so 8th house is a productive place for Mars to be. I'm still confused by Olivia's explanation of which are angular and succedent houses based on the Ascendent. I would think 9H house would be cadent and 8H succedent, 7H angular regardless?
Moon's ruler is Saturn in my chart, which is in sect (below horizon) and in a masculine sign Sagittarius, semi-sextile Moon but disadvantaged by house (7H). This seems like Saturn exerts a lot of influence just based on this, despite being a nocturnal chart. I'm wondering if 7H being the house of one-one relationships and partnerships shows that Saturn works most effectively when in a partnership, which is uncomfortable considering Saturn's "loner" tendencies (this does ring true to me).
Venus and Mars are both in feminine/earth signs, Mars also in Capricorn (exalted) and Venus in Virgo (fall). I don't understand what that means or how to interpret that in regards to triplicity rulers being in the element of the triplicity. Does anyone have ideas about that?
Both benefics in my chart are out of sect while both malefics are in sect. Would that have the effect of diminishing the "fruits" of the benefics, but mitigating the difficulties of the malefics? My first thought would be that this is a zero-sum!
This stuff is complicated.
I have a nocturnal chart, with Moon in feminine sign Capricorn. So the triplicity rulers are Moon, Venus and Mars. So the Moon is the 1st Trigon lord... of Moon?? So I'd look at it's own placement to see whether it's trouble? It is in 8th house whole sign, and by sign/house it is oppose Sun, inconjunct Mercury, sextile Jupiter, trine Venus and semi-sextile Saturn (I think). Capricorn is also the sign of Moon's detriment.
8H seems like a bad placement, just by the fact that it is inconjunct the 3rd house, where Moon is in "joy". I'm thinking, when determining how the house position is going to affect the expression of a planet, the aspect relationship between the house it is in and the house of that planet's joy will give an indication. For instance, Saturn is in joy in 12th, and in my chart it is located in the 7th whole house, so that would be an inconjunct. Saturn has difficulties expressing it's best qualities in the 7th, and it's "malefic" status will likely manifest because of it. However, the lesser malefic Mars is in the 8th house whole sign, making a sextile aspect to the 6th house, so 8th house is a productive place for Mars to be. I'm still confused by Olivia's explanation of which are angular and succedent houses based on the Ascendent. I would think 9H house would be cadent and 8H succedent, 7H angular regardless?
Moon's ruler is Saturn in my chart, which is in sect (below horizon) and in a masculine sign Sagittarius, semi-sextile Moon but disadvantaged by house (7H). This seems like Saturn exerts a lot of influence just based on this, despite being a nocturnal chart. I'm wondering if 7H being the house of one-one relationships and partnerships shows that Saturn works most effectively when in a partnership, which is uncomfortable considering Saturn's "loner" tendencies (this does ring true to me).
Venus and Mars are both in feminine/earth signs, Mars also in Capricorn (exalted) and Venus in Virgo (fall). I don't understand what that means or how to interpret that in regards to triplicity rulers being in the element of the triplicity. Does anyone have ideas about that?
Both benefics in my chart are out of sect while both malefics are in sect. Would that have the effect of diminishing the "fruits" of the benefics, but mitigating the difficulties of the malefics? My first thought would be that this is a zero-sum!
This stuff is complicated.
The Ram
Well-known member
The triplicity lord for earth signs in nocturnal births is the moon. Thus your moon has +3 points of triplicity rulership, which cancels out most of the -5 points debility it has for being in its detriment. it being in trip rulership also cancels out peregrine status.
Your venus is unaffected however. Since there can only only be 1 triplicity lord of each element depending on whether its a dirunal or nocturnal chart. Since your chart is nocturnal the moon is triplicity lord of all your earth signs and the moon alone. If you were born during the day then Venus would be trip lord for the earth signs in your chart and thus your venus would gain dignity and your moon would lose its trip dignity.
Mars is only a participating ruler of earth signs. Which has nothing to do with assigning dignity in regards to nativities. Participating rulers are for predictions mainly ie, for 8th house matters in your chart for the 1st 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your moon since yours is a nocturnal chart, then for the next 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your venus, then for the last 3rd you look at the condition of the partipating ruler: mars. You can do this for any house. Also some feel that the participating lord blends with the other 2 trip lords for the final 3rd of the life, while others dont.
Saturn being in joy in the 12th is a reinvention of astrology by more modern traditionalists, according to manilius Saturns temple was actually the 4th house. Later on astrologers invented the idea of him joying in 12 to keep it line with their idea of sect. A strong malefic in a malefic house can cause serious problems for a person. Unless Saturn were seriously debilitated, I wouldnt want him in a malefic house.
Your venus is unaffected however. Since there can only only be 1 triplicity lord of each element depending on whether its a dirunal or nocturnal chart. Since your chart is nocturnal the moon is triplicity lord of all your earth signs and the moon alone. If you were born during the day then Venus would be trip lord for the earth signs in your chart and thus your venus would gain dignity and your moon would lose its trip dignity.
Mars is only a participating ruler of earth signs. Which has nothing to do with assigning dignity in regards to nativities. Participating rulers are for predictions mainly ie, for 8th house matters in your chart for the 1st 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your moon since yours is a nocturnal chart, then for the next 3rd of your life youd look at the condition of your venus, then for the last 3rd you look at the condition of the partipating ruler: mars. You can do this for any house. Also some feel that the participating lord blends with the other 2 trip lords for the final 3rd of the life, while others dont.
Saturn being in joy in the 12th is a reinvention of astrology by more modern traditionalists, according to manilius Saturns temple was actually the 4th house. Later on astrologers invented the idea of him joying in 12 to keep it line with their idea of sect. A strong malefic in a malefic house can cause serious problems for a person. Unless Saturn were seriously debilitated, I wouldnt want him in a malefic house.
Last edited:
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
Hi Flapjacks,
Indeed it can be.
Yes. I'm assuming that you're trying to do the interpretation of the triplicity lords of the sect light to get a general outlook on the thirds of life. If you aren't, disregard everything to follow until further notice.
You started off well with identifying the triplicity lords of the sect light. A nocturnal birth, look to the Moon. The Moon is in an Earth Sign, and the lords are Moon, Venus, and Mars. So, you need to investigate the Moon to get a general idea of what the first third of your life is going to be like. In detriment, in a bad house, but has good aspects with the benefics and presumably is adverse to the malefics since you did not mention them. This seems like a life that has general gloomy overtones, but the native gets through with the support of other people or perhaps good coping skills.
You would then repeat this investigation with Venus. Is she essentially dignified or debilitated? How about accidentally? This would give you a general description of the second third of your life. Finally, you would similarly investigate Mars to understand the final third of life.
Okay, if I was wrong about what you were discussing, you may focus back in now.
This is incorrect.
"Cadent" has two uses. There is "cadent from the angles" which are those houses which we typically think of when we think "cadent"; the Third, Sixth, Ninth, and Twelfth. However, "cadent from the Ascendant" is a different matter and relates to those houses that we normally identify as "dark" houses, the ones that don't aspect the Ascendant; the Second, Sixth, Eighth, and Twelfth. Olivia is referring to the dark houses.
This isn't possible, mostly.
There will always be one benefic and one malefic in sect in general. This depends on if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal. Saturn and Jupiter are in sect in diurnal charts (and so perform more fortuitously for the native). Venus in Mars are in sect in nocturnal charts (who will perform advantageously as well. However, it is possible to have planets out of sect in more minor sect considerations like hayz and halb, but the general diurnal/nocturnal consideration has always been the most significant.
Hello, The Ram
It is not a good idea to conceptualize dignity and debility as a numbers game with points that can be added and subtracted (that is to say, it it useful in calculation, but not in interpretation). They are each qualitative effects and triplicity is no match for the affliction of the detriment the Moon experiences in Capricorn. It is best to think of them as the images they are assigned in texts where triplicity is typically something about coming from a good family or being in the right place at the right time, and detriment is someone who is completely disorganized or acting in a way that would be socially unacceptable.
This is most likely not true, but was common thought a few years ago. Since then we have texts from Manilius's contemporaries (mainly Thrasyllus of Mendes) that utilize the same Saturn in the Twelfth, Venus in the Fifth framework that we think of today when we use the planetary joys. This implies that Manilius was probably using an alternate - instead of the original - scheme.
Indeed it can be.
Yes. I'm assuming that you're trying to do the interpretation of the triplicity lords of the sect light to get a general outlook on the thirds of life. If you aren't, disregard everything to follow until further notice.
You started off well with identifying the triplicity lords of the sect light. A nocturnal birth, look to the Moon. The Moon is in an Earth Sign, and the lords are Moon, Venus, and Mars. So, you need to investigate the Moon to get a general idea of what the first third of your life is going to be like. In detriment, in a bad house, but has good aspects with the benefics and presumably is adverse to the malefics since you did not mention them. This seems like a life that has general gloomy overtones, but the native gets through with the support of other people or perhaps good coping skills.
You would then repeat this investigation with Venus. Is she essentially dignified or debilitated? How about accidentally? This would give you a general description of the second third of your life. Finally, you would similarly investigate Mars to understand the final third of life.
Okay, if I was wrong about what you were discussing, you may focus back in now.
This is incorrect.
"Cadent" has two uses. There is "cadent from the angles" which are those houses which we typically think of when we think "cadent"; the Third, Sixth, Ninth, and Twelfth. However, "cadent from the Ascendant" is a different matter and relates to those houses that we normally identify as "dark" houses, the ones that don't aspect the Ascendant; the Second, Sixth, Eighth, and Twelfth. Olivia is referring to the dark houses.
This isn't possible, mostly.
There will always be one benefic and one malefic in sect in general. This depends on if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal. Saturn and Jupiter are in sect in diurnal charts (and so perform more fortuitously for the native). Venus in Mars are in sect in nocturnal charts (who will perform advantageously as well. However, it is possible to have planets out of sect in more minor sect considerations like hayz and halb, but the general diurnal/nocturnal consideration has always been the most significant.
Hello, The Ram
It is not a good idea to conceptualize dignity and debility as a numbers game with points that can be added and subtracted (that is to say, it it useful in calculation, but not in interpretation). They are each qualitative effects and triplicity is no match for the affliction of the detriment the Moon experiences in Capricorn. It is best to think of them as the images they are assigned in texts where triplicity is typically something about coming from a good family or being in the right place at the right time, and detriment is someone who is completely disorganized or acting in a way that would be socially unacceptable.
This is most likely not true, but was common thought a few years ago. Since then we have texts from Manilius's contemporaries (mainly Thrasyllus of Mendes) that utilize the same Saturn in the Twelfth, Venus in the Fifth framework that we think of today when we use the planetary joys. This implies that Manilius was probably using an alternate - instead of the original - scheme.
Last edited:
In the (fragments) from Thrasyllus, and on through the texts from Valens and other early Hellenists, we find the Saturn in 12th/Venus in 5th Joy doctrine clearly established. It is my belief that Manilius represented a DIFFERENT ancient astrological stream (seperate from the Egyptian-Alexandrian genesis), which belief could be supported not only by the Saturn/4th Venus/10th Joy doctrine, but also in a number of other differences from the Alexandrian mainstream doctrines, found in Manilius (such as the Manilius decans, the duodenary based terms/bounds of 30 minutes of arc each, etc etc) My own leaning is that Manilius might have been the last exponent of an ancient stream possibly centering in Antioch, and which itself might have been a westward extension of an Irano/Indic current arising perhaps in the Indo-Greek Empire (180 BC - 10 AD), possibly at Alexandria-on-the Causcasus or Alexandria-on-the-Indus.
Flapjacks
Well-known member
Okay, I see! Thank you for clearing that up. I don't know why it was so hard for me to understand all that.
What I mean by out of sect (at least how I've heard this term used) is that Moon is above the horizon so Venus and Mars are also better placed above the horizon to be in sect (with moon). However, Venus is below the horizon with Mars is above. Jupiter and Saturn would be better placed below the horizon with Sun to be "in sect" but Jupiter is above the horizon while Saturn is below. That is what I've read, anyway... Of course, I could have understood these terms wrong.
Another question: Is hayz used when the planet is well placed in any consideration or well placed overall? How well-placed does it need to be to be hayz?
Thank you for answering those questions, I appreciate it.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
dr. farr said:
A synopsis, not fragments.
This is an interesting idea. Is there a similar system of planetary joy in Vedic astrology? Superficial searching didn't find anything, but I would be unsure of what information to trust had I found any anyway.
flapjacks said:
This is halb. Diurnal planets want to be in the half (that's what halb means, half) of the chart with the Sun (Jupiter and Saturn want to be above the Earth in a day chart and under the Earth in a night chart). Nocturnal planets wish the opposite, to be in the half of the chart where the Sun is absent (Moon, Venus, and Mars want to be under the Earth in a diurnal chart or above the Earth in a nocturnal chart). The focus is the half either with or without the Sun, not the sect light (by this I mean Mars and Venus don't want to be with the Moon, they all want to be away from the Sun).
Hayz is when a planet is in halb, but also in a Sign that agrees with their gender.
