Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

miquar

Well-known member
How was I back-pedaling?


Yes, the "Saturn = Pluto" bit was bad for my side.

I apologize for my last sentence. It's mostly speculation and it is quite hard to read.

Hi. 'Back-pedalling' was rather harsh - sorry. I just felt that you had loosened your assertion.

But in any case, I just wanted to say that as far as I can see, Liz Greene goes to great effort to understand and teach the essence of an archetype as a way of avoiding assumptions and generalisations. If you start with the essence, you have not pidgeon-holed anyone any more than they are already pidgeon-holed by constellating a particular archetypal pattern at birth.

I think most people, myself included, and as you know also Liz Greene, that there are, generally speaking psychological differences between the genders. But of course this in a sense is just another typology - psychological male and psychological female - and some will fit one pole or the other more neatly than others, and some will go against the psychological gendering of the the majority of those who share their biological gender (and there are some who are born not even fitting neatly into a biological gender-type). And of course we don't know how much is down to socialising.

I personally believe that we are all ultimately psychologically androgynous, wherever we start off in terms of biological or psychological types.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you female, and if so, do you dislike Greene's astrology because the generalisations you feel she has made are counter to your feminist views? I don't see Greene as anti-feminist.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Sequestra. Your chart seems to divide fairly neatly into two main configurations, especially if you use slightly smaller orbs and therefore lose Mercury aspects to Neptune and Pluto.

There's the Jupiter Uranus rising in Sagittarius opposite Moon in Gemini setting, with both ends of the opposition in flowing aspect to Mercury in Aquarius in the 3rd house (Mercury's own house and the house naturally associated with Gemini)

And then there's Sun, Venus and Mars in the water sign Pisces (with Sun in the watery 4th house and Venus and Mars in Pisces emphasising the watery nature of the Sun's natural house the 5th, which has its cusp in Pisces), with the watery planets Neptune and Pluto aspecting Sun, Venus and Mars too.

The contrast between these two themes may be something you feel very strongly. One could hardly think of a more perfect configuration than the first one for the joyful pursuit of understanding - a sense of life as an endless treasure hunt for knowledge and perhaps faith/meaning.

But the second theme would seem to be the one that reflects that which undermines you and turns you in on yourself - perhaps sometimes in destructive ways. The involvement of Saturn with Pluto may reflect a sense of imminent destruction of those things which give you a sense of security and self-respect, and the fact that the aspect between the Sun and the Saturn Pluto conjunction is a trine does not necessarily mean that it your Sun will delight in, and feel supported by these two 'heavies' of the planetary pantheon.

By squaring Mercury, and therefore challenging you to learn thoroughly and communicate with integrity, Saturn kind of hinges the two themes together. But like the Sun, it is in a watery sign and house - and these two planets of ego formation being so immersed in the watery realm suggests a porousness and vulnerability of selfhood.

I would say that valuing feelings is the way to go with this chart, because without this your building blocks of individuality (Sun and Saturn) are not at your disposal. It seems likely that you are already aware that you are on a journey, a process, which will take you through many difficult feelings such as anger, resentment, guilt, forgiveness of hurts done to you, loneliness, and grief.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if you experienced manic-depressive type fluctuations. The first theme I mentioned above could provide an attractive escape route from the burdens of emotional vulnerability - and the Pisces planets might buy into it due to the endless thirst for the ideal of Pisces.

There's something about the Venus closely conjunct Mars in Pisces in the 5th quincunx Pluto in the 12th too. I can't quite get a handle on it, but Mars and Venus reflect one's appetite for life on the everyday level. In Pisces in the 5th there could be a strong desire to be something really special, but Pluto on the 12th cusp is suggesting that dark emotional undercurrents have been handed down the generations because none of your recent ancestors wanted to face them honestly. One possible manifestation of this part of your chart is the manipulative use (by your caregivers) of your need to feel special when you were a child, ending with you feeling bitter and betrayed. Venus, Mars and Pluto all have a lot to do with sexual expression, so it could have taken an overt and particularly sinister form.

I don't know if any of this will be relevant to you, but these are the things that jump out at me looking at your chart with your post in mind.
 

Paula Andrea Pyle

Active member
When encountering self-sabotage, we must look to the degrees of the ninth house cusp since the mind is indeed a terrible thing to waste. The ruling planet's postion in the chart will add instruction to the course of expanding direction. Usually, it is NOT the preferred route or expected avenue of expression but in the gutter many things of glorious merit are found...MODE of Cosmic Therapy:happy:
 

sequestra

Well-known member
Wow Miquar, thank you so much. What an exhaustive and revealing analysis. You have hit on so many things correctly (in fact nothing was wrong), that I'm sort of sitting here, mouth agape, in a state of wonderment.

I certainly experience the dichotomy you elucidated, to such an extent in fact that I'm technically diagnosed with rapid cycling bi polar 2. At the moment I'm on the tail end of a depressive cycle, since I can finally feel my energy returning after months of somnolence. In a way it's as if I oscillate between the shallow splash-pools of life and its cavernous depths. I have flown too close to the sun only to fall so far into the abyss that I've barely made it through (on so many occasions now that I've truly exceeded my '9 lives').

So this time around I'm trying not to let my returning energies/positivity get the better of me. I think that perhaps if I make a conscious effort not to let it run orgiastically wild, then my inevitable down-swing will not be quite so treacherous. I'm tired of things being either a delusional sort of fantastic or of encompassing similar dimensions of catastrophic despair. Temperance is what I must learn, as I feel I will only reach some sort of constructive balance when I become competent in walking the middle path.

Thank you again. I really am very grateful for your sensitively expressed insights. This is your talent, without a doubt.
 

luna7

Well-known member
Thanks sequestra, I got it!!
I'll give you my thoughts (for what they are worth) in a bit.
Thanks, Luna
Yes I have personal experience with self sabotage....I've been reading all the threads assoc with your post with much interest
 

luna7

Well-known member
I always begin looking at the chart from the perspective of the nodes. Your S node conjunct Neptune suggests a familiarity & a desire to dissolve boundaries, to see beyond what is readily available. You know (too well?) about the impermanent, whimsical nature of life. It’s almost as if this innate wisdom works against you. The self sabotage becomes an unconscious way to resist “the norm“, to NOT get too caught up in the reality of life, and all its melodramas: family, relationships, job etc
However the Pisces Sun represents the way you self-realise….and altho it sounds very much like the South Node theme, I think the difference lies in the sharing: you need to find your roots (4th), to find a group who support & encourage discussion around the nature of things, who are just as curious as you (Gem 7th). In this way, the deep longing that you have can be nurtured, and a new way of defining yourself (ie not via self sabotage) will evolve.
 

sequestra

Well-known member
Thank you Luna, for another percipient evaluation from which I was able to take much of worth. And you're right, I have (from an early age) had a preoccupation with impermanence, which has flavored my perceptions with melancholic relish for as long as I can remember. I test its boundaries and rage against it, but it has consumed me time and time again. Thankfully to date I have risen (albeit each time a little worse for wear) from the ashes of these multiple self-inflicted incinerations. Existential angst in its myriad incarnations.

I really hear what you're conveying in regards to the establishment of a connection with my roots - and to do so, I feel you are also correct in saying that this will require significant relation/exposure to other people. Remaining connected to the vine, so to speak, will be my panacea.

I don't want to delve into Christian theology as I'm not a Christian, but after my brush with death last year I experienced some very strange events in succession involving John 15 ("No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine"). This is a germane time for me to be reminded of this verse, as I have isolated myself extensively for several months now, and as has previously been the case this isolation has enabled/exacerbated momentum of a downward spiral into doubt, self-loathing and negativity generally. I've hit the point where I know that any further "personal" reflection (devoid of outside opinion) truly will be a fruitless exercise. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and reconnect with the world again (and in doing so hope that it accepts me back into the fold).
 

sequestra

Well-known member
Since this is a general discussion.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/skillcoilistaken/chart.jpg
Along with this, I'm a genuinely nice person. Most people aren't and I'm not great at dealing with it, this hasn't worked out well.

Hi Skillcoil :) So you struggle with this too? First thing jumping out to me is that strong mars squaring your saturn/neptune conjunction (but I'm no expert). I really want to hear what others have to say about your chart. What are your thoughts?
 

sequestra

Well-known member
I feel as if things that are so easy and natural for others, such as manipulation, defending oneself, being socially clever is difficult for me (because of traits mentioned in this thread's title). Some people are into power and putting others down, I don't want to be involved but atleast if I am I want to be able to handle it well, but there is doubt, reluctance, etc.

Aw. You're too nice for the world :love: ... I think I know what you're talking about though, my dad is a lot like this. He's a soft touch. He is the kind to give money to anyone who asks (e.g. every new cause that comes calling at the door), and he tends to think the best of people, with rarely a negative word to say about anyone. He's also incapable of lying. For as long as I can remember my mother has frequently come out with things like "Kevin you're too naive! You need to develop some cunning!" But in spite of many awkward situations and his difficulty asserting himself (not so much because he couldn't, but more because it takes a lot to make him angry), he's had a pretty **** good life out of it. People love him and trust him, and want to be around him. Especially children and animals. In fact, he reminds me of a dog... Or an innocent 4 year old in a 63 year old body. But lol, yeah I'm not saying you're like that.

However I am saying that not wanting to engage in power-plays and an inability to be manipulative is pretty appealing in my (and many other peoples) books. I think in most respects you can get what you want (the things that are good for you, anyway) by simply being a decent human being.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Thanks for your feedback Sequestra. I hope you're getting the help that you need. I don't know very much at all about bipolar conditions, but focusing on the Sun and Saturn could enhance your ego-strength and provide a more solid and stable base.

It might also be worth looking at your Chiron in Taurus in the 6th house too. Chiron is the only earth planet, and I don't think it makes any aspects in the birth chart (the astro.com default is to not show them, but I don't think it makes any in your case anyway.) Because the 6th house has a lot to do with integration of body and mind, and chiron tends to be experienced as a wound, a lack of groundedness related to body alienation/trauma may add to your struggle to find psychological stability. Perhaps yoga or something similar, or body-centred therapy, is worth considering.

You may also struggle to express anger due to Mars being in Pisces and aspecting Venus, Neptune and Pluto in the 12th.

I hope that your Saturn return helps you to further establish a sense of being a solid and defined individual. If there's anything else you want to ask, please do. I don't have any training as a psychologist or psychoanalyst but I can try to express things from an astrological perspective, and maybe that will help a bit.

You might also benefit from reading some of the solar myths that involve a journey to the underworld.
 

sequestra

Well-known member
I don't know very much at all about bipolar conditions, but focusing on the Sun and Saturn could enhance your ego-strength and provide a more solid and stable base.

Thank you Miquar. Quite some time ago another astrologer told me to focus my energies into my sun's trines to saturn conjunct pluto in terms of making a stable base for myself. I am tentatively intending to do this again, with the awareness that I will need to watch out for the limited/fixed focal point and obsessiveness that has previously accompanied it (in the past I would set a goal and do anything within my power to attain it, to the expense of everything/everyone else).

It might also be worth looking at your Chiron in Taurus in the 6th house too...Because the 6th house has a lot to do with integration of body and mind, and chiron tends to be experienced as a wound, a lack of groundedness related to body alienation/trauma may add to your struggle to find psychological stability. Perhaps yoga or something similar, or body-centred therapy, is worth considering.

In Placidus my sun squares chiron and venus/mars sextile it. The section I have italicized is so key to me, truly. I have severe body dysmorphia that I was previously linking to my venus/mars square neptune in the 1st, but it would make sense that chiron is involved; I just previously struggled to connect the dots (with my limited knowledge) as venus/mars are in positive aspect to it, and that threw me off. You really hit the nail on the head with the yoga recommendation - my psychologist recommends this too and I will be starting soon (my parents both do it).

I hope that your Saturn return helps you to further establish a sense of being a solid and defined individual. If there's anything else you want to ask, please do. I don't have any training as a psychologist or psychoanalyst but I can try to express things from an astrological perspective, and maybe that will help a bit.

Thank you so much Miquar, I feel I have taken up so much of your time already! I really am very appreciative of your time and effort - you have been extremely helpful with your 'on the mark' analyses.

You might also benefit from reading some of the solar myths that involve a journey to the underworld.

I love mythology. I have a couple of books that I have enjoyed, but do you have any recommendations?
 

MaeMae

Banned
Hades Moon's are pretty self-abusing. Often our own worst enemies. Paradoxically, it can represent ascension from blight. Sometimes I think it's a self-serving cycle of hitting bottom just so we can rise up again.
Self-defeat is really fear of success, Saturn, knowing what is required to succeed but not having the self~confidence to take it on, or Neptune, rejection of it, or not wanting to stand out in a crowd, so to speak ~ a desire to stay in background. Or Uranus', "**** it all!" orientation ~ an ultimate decision to change horses in midstream or to "call the whole thing off."
A tormented sun, moon or mercury by these planets ~ can affect the way we express ourselves, adapt to situations or mental conditioning.
Most people lacking confidence or who are self abusing are likely to have early conditioning that either put them on impossible pedastals or continually knocked them down. Makes me think of quincunx aspects ~ a need to adjust to internal counter-requirements; or squares, where proving oneself despite obstacles (created by self or circumstance), evoke defeatest stances. Too much work. This seems to be represented as a reluctance to wait while working ~ a desire for immediate gratification over lengthy, sustained effort.
 
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luna7

Well-known member
Since this is a general discussion.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/skillcoilistaken/chart.jpg
Along with this, I'm a genuinely nice person. Most people aren't and I'm not great at dealing with it, this hasn't worked out well.
You have Leo on the cusp of the 7th house, which indicates that you may display a fairly sunny, playful disposition…..when you first start a relationship. But as the relationship develops, another side of you could emerge: the Venus in Virgo. One of Virgo’s strengths is to visualise “how things could be”, they have a sense of the ideal - but when things don’t live up to this ideal, the Virgo shadow: criticism of self & others creeps in. Another of Virgo’s archetypes is the “servant”. Neither excess criticism, nor the idea that one partner “serve” the needs of the other work very well in the 7th house, which is really about the formation of equal partnership (intimate & otherwise). It’s OK to have high expectations of relationships, but if the Virgo traits get activated, and you have no awareness that these, in fact, are you own attributes, it could lead to some conflictual experiences.
The square to the Moon would seem to indicate something of the same flavour: that you are vulnerable to being defined by another’s needs. It’s very important to respond to your Moon’s needs: the Moon helps to stabilise you. For you, in Sag, it might include travel or study or making sense of your….self.
The self (symbolised by the Sun) is placed in the 8th house, meaning that deep intense experiences are a vital part of your growth. The 8th house experience often feels chaotic, just because it‘s trying to shake up the ego, catalyse growth. Being in Libra, I’m wondering whether these experiences might include some kind of art form: are you attracted to “dark” art? Of course, relationships are also an excellent way of living out Libran energy; just expect the intimate ones to be intense, and try not to fall into the (previously mentioned) shadow Virgo stuff.
The Moon in Sag will love trying to understand the meaning of all the intensity, it loves the getting of wisdom. Maybe, eventually, this wisdom will be something that you can take out into world, make it a part of your career. Teach it.
Lastly, the Mars in Aries in the 1st is courageous, even if, at times it doesn’t feel like that. Maybe you have a fear of appearing selfish (or something) & you allow the niceness of the Virgo/Libra to run you. Even tho you appear relationship oriented, I think it’s important to be a little bit selfish……even if it just means giving yourself time out to go to an art gallery, or movie….in other words, I think you should occasionally engage with solitude deliberately.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
Hi Sequestra. Yes I guess if you allow a 5 degree orb for a sextile and a ten degree orb for a square, then Chiron is just square the Sun and just sextile Mars. I don't tend to use orbs over 8 degrees for conjunctions or 4 for sextiles, but some astrologers do.

'Placidus' is the house system by which each of the quadrants of your chart have been divided into 3 houses. The aspects between the planets will be the same whichever house system you use.

Some myths that you might find interesting if you haven't already come across them are:

The Babylonian myth of the Sun-god Marduk. Liz Greene says, in Apollo's Chariot, 'his battle with and victory over the mother-goddess Tiamat is a powerful image of the solar struggle against the darkness of the collective and the instinctual compulsions of the body.

Inanna is a goddess from Sumerian myth who descends into the underworld to visit her sister, Ereshkigal. I won't spoil the story in case you haven't read it!

The defeat of the Hydra by Heracles is also evocative of the struggle of the ego against the 'dark side' of human nature. Chiron figures in this story to, because he is accidentally wounded by one of Heracles arrows, which has been dipped in the blood if the defeated Hydra, and this is where Chiron's incurable wound comes from. This can be read as Chiron symbolising the random misfortune that can befall us, whether we deserve it or not, when the primal passions (symbolised by the Hydra) erupt from the collective unconscious (for example through a war or the act of an individual).

Features of the Greek sun-god Apollo that may be especially relevant to your watery Sun are his being the god of music, his power to break family curses, and his killing of the python.

It would be worth getting hold of a copy of Apollo's Chariot, by Liz Greene, I think, especially as transiting Saturn is about to trigger the trines to your Sun.
 

sequestra

Well-known member
'Placidus' is the house system by which each of the quadrants of your chart have been divided into 3 houses. The aspects between the planets will be the same whichever house system you use.

Oops. Thanks for clearing this up, silly me. And yeah I tend to prefer tighter aspects myself, I just seem to feel the need to include the loose "bad" ones in my chart (but nevermind the sextiles).

Some myths that you might find interesting if you haven't already come across them are... It would be worth getting hold of a copy of Apollo's Chariot, by Liz Greene, I think, especially as transiting Saturn is about to trigger the trines to your Sun.

Thank you for all of those recommendations! I'm looking into them as I type, and ordering Apollo's Chariot. I have another mythology book by Liz Greene (somewhere in my messes); she co-authored it with another woman and it was tying in the tarot with mythological tales; anyway it was great and I loved her story-telling ability, so I will look forward to reading this. Thanks again :happy:
 

PaxMercurius

Well-known member
When I look at someone's chart and see Saturn opp. or square Moon, I KNOW this person is going to be self-sabotaging and prone to depression. The hard aspects between the two planets, especially in a night chart, indicates that the person's parent model was highly negative and that the child absorbed their parent's negative behaviours. The house and sign placement shows where and how they express this internalised conflict.

Other things to look for are hard aspects to the MC (the point of our achievements) and hard aspects from Neptune to the personal planets. I've noted that people with either a lot of Water, no Water at all, or with a bipolar Fire/Water dichotomy tend to be the most self-undermining.

As I always recommend, look to the dignities of any planets involved in such questions. Dignities are sorely underused, but they reveal much about the quality of a planet, and the challenges that planet faces. A poorly dignified Venus in hard aspect to the person's ruling planet in a Water sign (eg. Aries AC, Mars in Pisces, Venus in Virgo (her Fall) - that person will likely sabotage themselves through their sexual practices and addictions, especially addictions to corruptive and sweet substances: alcohol, sugar, etc.

Incidentally, hi again! I haven't been back on AW for a while :D
 

MaeMae

Banned
Pax ~ your avatar is brilliantly colored and artful. I love how it pops out against the boring blue of the page.
(veering away from topic momentarily)
 
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