Whole sign or Equal House?

dr. farr

Well-known member
That's why I am an eclectic: I choose what "makes sense" to me, and then what "works" for me. from the Hellenists, the Traditionalists, the Modernists, even some from the jyotish and Chinese models! I certainly lean toward old time concepts and methods, but I am by no means an exclusivist here-what I have taken from Moderns such as Charles Carter, is pretty extensive. So I encourage people, especially beginners, to be open minded, to read a wide range of the literature, and to constantly put theories to the test of practical delineation-to hold fast what "works" for them, regardless of the source, and to not worry about or waste their time on concepts/methods which don't work, FOR THEM...and to accord respect for all points of view, including those which differ radically from their own...
 

nbennett

Active member
If you feel you want to test WH or Equal, just put in the MC/IC like a planet in the chart. Watch tMars for 6 months an see if it hits the MC degree and what happens. In 6 months Mars will move 90deg and hit every degree in your chart. See which ones are strong for you, especially the MC versus the ASC deg. Of course, if they are close, you will not be able to tell.

In my chart the ASC degree is strong since the Equal House 10th at 5deg, called the nonagesimal has Saturn and Moon near by at 4 and 2. My MC is at 17deg. I really get the transits from the 2-5deg, but very, very little at the 17deg.

I'm a firm user of Equal House, it is a refinement of Whole Sign. Yes I have studied with Robert Hand but my first teacher was Carl Payne Tobey. With Equal, all cusps are the same degree as the ASC. If you are married to the MC/IC your software can put it in just like a planet.

There are real math measurement reasons for this that are complicated. In simple form, the Asc/Dsc is measured on the ecliptic. The MC/IC is measured on the equator. These two planes are 23deg26min apart. That is why there are so many house systems, trying to rectify this difference. Only equal and Whole Sign measure all houses on the ecliptic. All other house systems fail above the Arctic Circle.

If you are a beginner, stay with either Whole Sign or Equal. It will serve you better.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes, I am very familiar with Project Hindsight - I had been a practicing astrologer for twenty years or so when the three Roberts started it. We were all very excited and most astrologers contributed to the Project. I was particularly excited because I love to study the astrology of different and ancient cultures.

What I never thought would happen was that people would try to apply that ancient system to modern life and completely discard all that we have discovered since then. I am still gob smacked that this has occurred.

Even though most agree that these ancient structures are the basis of modern astrology, that doesn't mean we have to stand still and live with the concepts and thought patterns of those people of long, long ago - it just doesn't fit the modern world at all well as we live completely different kinds of lives.

In every field of thought and application we have learned more than the people in those eras had any hope of knowing and as a result all forms of science, philosophy, medicine etc., etc., have changed and grown .. as has astrology. Why on earth would astrologers not want to use all that we have discovered in astrology since then? Why on earth would astrologers want to use the astrology of people who kept slaves, regularly abused women and were just ignorant of the astronomy of astrology?

.. anyway, I could go on and on, but I don't think it would make any difference. If astrologers want to live and think like those bygone people they will.

Alice

Slavery and the abuse of women and children hasn't ended. The astronomy required to draw an Astrological-chart was known to the ancient Astrologers, aside from the Planets and asteroids invisible to the naked eye (or, in the Uranian case, undetectable as a Planet, rather than as a star). There IS value in maintaining the ancient methods and configurations, as separate from the expanded, telescope-aided modern versions. The technology at our disposal is the most striking difference between the "Modern world" and the Past. Human nature hasn't changed--just our collective ability to destroy the environment and kill on a massive scale; or, to choose to use that increased ability to make the world a better place for all living creatures.
Traditional is at the roots, Modern is in the branches--it's a synergistic relationship. As in the case of a tree, both are necessary, and "a tree divided against itself cannot stand". Both Placidian and Whole-sign seem to work, based on Life-choices made by the individual--they represent different potential Life-paths.
 
Last edited:

nbennett

Active member
I consider the Equal House system a refinement to the Whole Sign. Before accurate measurements, the oldest chart just had a sign for the first cusp. When exact degrees could be determined, then the Asc had a degree. Even if one is using WH, the aspects to the ASC are important and by, default, one is using EH. It is long held that the most important degree in a house is when it's aspecting the degree of the ASC. It is the most important degree of that house (not considering planets in a house). So by default, WH is still using EH when the deg of the Asc is involved.

The next test is to see when transits hit the Nonagesimal vs the MC. Which is more important??? That is the test of the EH 10th Cusp vs the MC. Which is more important in the chart. Unless there is a planet on the MC or a hard aspect to the MC, my 40+ years of experience finds the EH 10th wins the most points of importance since it is a square aspect to the Asc.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
In whole sign, the sensitive degree, which is the degree of the ascendant, is projected into all the following 11 houses-this is the "cusp" of each house, cusp originally meaning "a point", and it is the sensitive degree (cusp) of each house; example: the ascending degree is, say 10 Aries; this is the "cusp" of the first house, and aspects can be made to it; the "cusp" of the second house (its sensitive degree) is 10 Taurus; the third house 10 Gemini is the "cusp", and so on around the circle of the zodiac, the 12th house "cusp" being 10 Pisces in this example; aspects to, and progressions of, these sensitive degrees (cusps) can thus be made just as in Equal house or quadrant format "cusps".
 

nbennett

Active member
Thanks Dr Farr for your comments and clarity.

I want to go a step further with this concept of cusp houses. The Greeks call the cusp the 'pivot' and in Medieval square charts were drawn with triangular houses. The Apex of the triangle was the cusp. Note that the cusp apex degree was always in the center of the house in Medieval charts.

When we started drawing round charts, the cusp became the line to mark the beginning of the house in Equal House. Whole Sign just puts the Asc into the first house like a planet (which creates its own problems.)

Even back to Ptolemy, the Greeks recognized that the First house extended into the 12th by 5 degrees. The modern Gauquelin sectors put important planets in prominent people into the 12th house and 9th house. I'll post both images below. The point being that the Equal House Cusp degree marks the CENTER of the house, not the beginning. The pivot or sensitive degree of the house is the center of the house whether we are talking Equal or Whole Sign. The Gauquelin studies prove the point when prominence falls into the 12th and 9th, i.e. part of the Equal first house extends into the 12th and part of the Equal 10th extends into the 9th. Cusp lines mark the sensitive pivot point of a house, its center.

The problem in Whole Sign is when the cusp point is at 1 degree or 28 degrees. 28 degrees marks the sensitive pivot point, the center of the house, not the end of the Whole Sign house. A 1deg Asc marks the center of the house, not the beginning, even for Whole Sign. Food for thought.
picture.php


picture.php




Z
 
Last edited:

Drsendero

Well-known member
If you consider the equal house cusps as the centers of their houses rather than the beginning, you are actually describing the Vehlow house system. In Vehlow, the first house extends 15 degrees on either side of the Ascendant degree which is the center of that house, and so on through the remaining houses. If you don't have software that offers Vehlow, you can cast charts with it on astro.com . This system is also used in India, but it goes by such names as Indian or Vedic Equal Houses in English.

So, there are actually 3 house systems that consider the equal house cusps as the important points of houses: Equal (where the cusp is the beginning), Vehlow (where the cusp is the center), and Whole Sign (where the cusp is a sensitive point that can be anywhere within the house/sign).
 

nbennett

Active member
Another extension of this issue of houses is how the 10th cusp is measured and drawn. In essence, Whole Sign doesn't use the 10th cusp, they place the MC in the chart as a point. Equal House puts the MC in the chart as a point too since the Equal Houses used the Nonagesimal.

The other house systems used the MC as the 10th cusp which is measured from the Geographic North Pole. But the Nonagesimal is measured from the Ecliptic North Pole. Remember that the ASC/DSC is measured from the Ecliptic. This creates equal 30deg houses. Everything is measured in ecliptic directions.

Where is the Ecliptic North Pole???? It is the Arctic Circle!!! This is also the eternal 0deg Cancer. Why is this important?? Because there are two North Poles and astrologers don't know the difference!

If I am standing on the Geographic North Pole then when I walk away from it, I'm walking geographically south toward the Arctic Circle. At the same time I'm walking ecliptically north to the Ecliptic North Pole (the Arctic Circle). How can I be walking geographically north while I"m walking ecliptically north at the same time??? This is the cause of all the other house systems. Below is the image of the distorted houses in Placidus above the Arctic Circle. The second image is the two north poles and why there is such a problem when the 10th House is measured from the MC instead of the Nonagesimal.

picture.php


picture.php
 
Top