US - a Uranian Country

Cold Fusion

Well-known member
waybread,

While the issues discussed have changed over the years, the issue of individual rights vs. government security has ALWAYS been with the US. The issue of slavery is a case in point: while people in the North part of the US soon decided that ALL people had individual rights from God, slave owners in the South part of the US depended on government to ensure that slaves would always be secured to them. What is NOT mentioned in today's public school history in the US is the GREAT amount of freedom free blacks had in the North to develop themselves as they chose: there were pastors, business men, and politicians who were free and influential in their communities. Slavery was ALWAYS an issue in the US since it went DIRECTLY against the principles in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was SO important in the US that eventually the US fought a WAR over it to WIPE IT OUT. NO OTHER COUNTRY felt so strongly about the issue of slavery that they thought it was important to go to war over. All of these are reasons for the prominence of Uranus (rebellion, freedom, security) in the house of relationships in the Cornwallis chart

It's also interesting to see transiting Neptune square Jupiter and Venus during the "Roaring 20s". The fantasy and escapism of Neptune square Jupiter very well matches the fantasies of wealth that bloomed and died during this time. The Great Depression was the "hangover" from the long party of the "head in the clouds" 20s.

Continuing to look at this,

Tim


You realize the bible condones slavery right?
 

Cold Fusion

Well-known member
Blackbery, just to set a few things straight:

Slavery itself is a 6th house matter-- but from the perspective of the master, not the enslaved people.

I'm not quite understanding you. The 6th is house is ruled Virgo. Are you trying to say they are slave drivers or the slaves?
 

blackbery

Well-known member
You realize that there is a great difference between the Old and New Testament, right?:unsure:

If you believe that Master Jesus condoned the suffering of humans, including children, then you haven't understood His life and purpose.

The anti-slavery movement was a religious movement led largely by a William Wilberforce.
It wasn't Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or atheists who worked for decades to abolish slavery. It was Christians.

In the late 1700s, when William Wilberforce was a teenager, English traders raided the African coast on the Gulf of Guinea, captured between 35,000 and 50,000 Africans a year, shipped them across the Atlantic, and sold them into slavery. It was a profitable business that many powerful people had become dependent upon. One publicist for the West Indies trade wrote, "The impossibility of doing without slaves in the West Indies will always prevent this traffic being dropped. The necessity, the absolute necessity, then, of carrying it on, must, since there is no other, be its excuse."



Here's a good article to help you.



https://emergencenj.org/blog/2019/01/04/does-the-bible-condone-slavery


https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/people/activists/william-wilberforce.html



You realize the bible condones slavery right?
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
Tim, with respect, it's going to be difficult to have an intelligent mundane astrology discussion if you pull in discredited conspiracy theories.

There were something like 60 legal challenges to the 2020 election results in various jurisdictions. These were filed in local courts on up to the SCOTUS. Many of the judges were Republicans. Some were appointed by Trump himself. All of these cases were dismissed, mostly for lack of evidence but some for lack of standing (which one would think a smart lawyer like Ted Cruz would understand.)

Simply because a lot of gullible people were coached by a charismatic president and rightwing media to believe the election was stolen does not mean that it was. It means that gutless Republican leaders who knew better (like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham) had a moral obligation to stand up to the falsehoods and to tell the truth.

But we all know that these "leaders" were scared spitless by the Trump hydra.

Rightwingers also conveniently ignore that several "red" states that went for Trump had the identical election procedures as states that the rightwingers contested. Also that voting procedures in Michigan were crafted by the Republican-controlled legislature. And so on.

To call the January 6 attack on the Capitol building a mere "protest" is a shocking denial of what actually happened. Rightwingers sure weren't describing the Portland and BLM "protests" in that fashion.

Nobody thinks China has the United States' best interests at heart. Certainly not Biden. Don't forget his service in the Senate and as VP. And it's worse than most people realize. China has bought up mineral, timber, and water rights around the globe. They control the majority of several key strategic industries. This process was underway long before Biden's election, under both Republican and Democratic administrations.

We all also know that Trump was in Vladimir Putin's pocket. This probably relates to Trump's verified business debts to Russian mobsters, but possibly also to compromising videos from Trump's Moscow beauty pageant days.

I find it shocking that white people are all too ready to lecture visible minorities about the need to bury their histories and present inequalities in the name of a white-scripted common "unity." It's like telling minorities to "put up and shut up."

Yes, Biden cares about the US-Mexico border. Probably you're aware of US legislation and international treaties on refugee claimants. It's up to Congress to pass new immigration laws, not the President.

Tim, I could go on in this fashion about the rest of your political opinions, but maybe we should focus on the OP topic.

Obviously there are multiple candidate charts for the birth of the US. The question is, are any of them really radical? And this does not mean rewriting history to suit a contemporary political ideology. It means looking for specific dates of major events.

Such as: the onset of two world wars, the Civil War, dates of origination or passage of key legislation, key inventions, and so on.

Any of these charts is arguably an important "birth date" for the US:

1. Declaration of Independence
2. British surrender at Yorktown
3. Treaty of Paris
4. Constitution: origination and/or final ratification (esp. re: the presidency)
5. Bill of Rights: origination and/or final ratification

What would be interesting would be to compare these charts through time.
 

david starling

Well-known member
In characterizing the United States as it developed over the Centuries, Neptune in Libra makes more sense than Neptune in Virgo.

Using the Cornwallis Chart, the U.S. was having its Neptune Return when the Allies won WWII.

The music and clothing styles changed, and the Civil Rights Movement got under way.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
I'm not quite understanding you. The 6th is house is ruled Virgo. Are you trying to say they are slave drivers or the slaves?

As I explained to Tim in a recent post, signs do not rule houses. Signs and houses are different. Some modern astrologers adopted a simplistic by-the-numbers approach to conflating planets, signs, and houses. Others have not.

The modern astrology I practice is methodologically conservative, with respect for the tradition that preceded it. I detach signs and houses.

See Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

The 6th house rules (poor) health, small animals, servants and slaves (from the master's perspective.) Today it makes more sense to say that the 6th governs the principle of service to others. It is a cadent house. In mundane astrology, it would include public health.

Virgo is a mutable earth sign, ruled by Mercury. It has the quality of a kind of perfectionism or improvement quest, and a desire to be helpful in practical ways. It is one of the traditionally "barren" signs.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Tim, thanks for the Arroyo reference. Most of my astrology books are still packed from last summer's house move, but I'll see if I can find my copy.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I looked up the history of abolition of slavery, and it's not so simple. The concept precedes the Civil War by many centuries.

During the Middle Ages, European agricultural peasants (called serfs) had very few rights. They essentially belonged to the manor or estate where they were born. They couldn't just decide to move. They had obligations to farm the lord's land, to pay taxes, and serve in the army if called on to do so. Their status was comparable to that of slaves, with just a few more rights.

Chattel slavery was also practiced. But various laws made it illegal for Jews or Muslims to own Christian slaves.

Wikipedia has a timeline for when serfdom and chattel slavery were abolished:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slavery_and_serfdom
 

david starling

Well-known member
In characterizing the United States as it developed over the Centuries, Neptune in Libra makes more sense than Neptune in Virgo.

Using the Cornwallis Chart, the U.S. was having its Neptune Return when the Allies won WWII.

The music and clothing styles changed, and the Civil Rights Movement got under way.


Moon/conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio makes more sense than Moon in Aquarius. We're not an emotionally detached nation. We want what we want when we want it, and can get quite emotional and passionate about it.

But, with Neptune in Libra, and Pluto in Aquarius, we strive to be fair-minded. So, despite wanting the economic benefits of slavery, it was understood to be morally wrong, and something to be abolished.
 
Last edited:

wilsontc

Staff member
https://astrolibrary.org/interpretations/weak-earth/

I looked up no earth signs. Here is a link. How do you feel about a earth free chart for the US?

Opal,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I read in your link that charts without Earth "...overspend and borrow money freely..." This is EXACTLY what the US has struggled with over the decades: WAY too much spending on government money to the point now where the President of the US casually tosses off 6 TRILLION dollar budgets as if there were NO consequences to overspending. Reality is setting in as US inflation starts to spiral up again, as it did in the 70s with the US' overspending.

Also this caught my eye: "They may hold onto a job or relationship too long..." which is exactly what has happened with the US citizens and their politicians, where voters hang onto unproductive politicians too long, hoping they will somehow become better even though they have been proved a disaster. More and more voters are becoming aware of the problem of over-idealized politicians who provide no value in doing the job of the US government: securing people's individual rights (per the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these [individual] rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

Seeing the Void,

Tim
 
Last edited:

Opal

Premium Member
Opal,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I read in your link that charts without Earth "...overspend and borrow money freely..." This is EXACTLY what the US has struggled with over the decades: WAY too much spending on government money to the point now where the President of the US casually tosses off 6 TRILLION dollar budgets as if there were NO consequences to overspending. Reality is setting in as US inflation starts to spiral up again, as it did in the 70s with the US' overspending.

Also this caught my eye: "They may hold onto a job or relationship too long..." which is exactly what has happened with the US citizens and their politicians, where voters hang onto unproductive politicians too long, hoping they will somehow become better even though they have been proved a disaster. More and more voters are becoming aware of the problem of over-idealized politicians who provide no value in doing the job of the US government: securing people's individual rights (per the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these [individual] rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

Seeing the Void,

Tim

Interesting chart. Also, the sun in the tenth, in Libra. House of the President or Monarch.. According to Green reputation, credit and power as well. Being in Libra, a fairness should be seen.

Also of note, the nodes, groups of people, are in the fourth , of the people.

The sun and nodes are very in opposition.
 
Last edited:

wilsontc

Staff member
All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim
 

Opal

Premium Member
All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim

Or will the New World Order be achieved and masking and vaccines will be the new normal?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Interesting chart. Also, the sun in the tenth, in Libra. House of the President or Monarch.. According to Green reputation, credit and power as well. Being in Libra, a fairness should be seen.

Also of note, the nodes, groups of people, are in the fourth , of the people.

The sun and nodes are very in opposition.

And as I pointed out recently, the sun falls in Libra. It is also conjunct the south node. MC ruler Venus is in detriment in Scorpio. Not very encouraging for a nation's birth chart.

Uranus in the mundane 7th could show a military upset. which is why I think the OP chart makes more sense as the chart of the British defeat.

Which is true enough. Britain did not actually relinquish its territorial claim to the 13 colonies/states and western territories until the Treaty of Paris.

And come to think of it, Tim: what would be the chart for the Cornwallis surrender as such, if somehow different from a US birth chart of the identical time, date, and location??? Alternatively, where would you see that surrender in the OP chart?
 

waybread

Well-known member
So where do you see the horrendous infection and mortality rates from covid, Tim? [Please don't tell us that you're a covid denier.] This surely has to be seen as a major significant event in US history, along with the influenza epidemic of 1918-19.

We are now also seeing a steep drop in the US birth rate paired with the worst of the pandemic.

Onset dates for pandemics are notoriously difficult to pin down. One can see a rise in recorded cases when Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn were joined by additional planets, notably Pluto. Jupiter normally is a mitigating factor, but it was hampered in its fall in Capricorn.

Of course, the wisdom of those Republican governors remains to be seen. One hopes they are not simply authorizing super-spreader events and destinations.

I think it's important not to let your political beliefs, no matter how sincere, color your analysis. This is why in mundane astrology it's best to just stick to a range of verifiable known dates that are independent of the astrologer's political persuasion. For example, nobody is going to disagree about the date when the US entered WW II, regardless of how far they sit on the right or the left.

ps.-- Tim it also occurs to me to ask whether the Arroyo book you cite deals with mundane astrology. My recollection is that it is entirely about natal chart interpretation. If so, it's not clear how well genethliacal astrology transfers to mundane astrology. Mundane astrology is a separate branch with its own interpretive methods. The two branches are similar but by no means identical.


All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim
 
Last edited:

blackbery

Well-known member
WB, while you're condemning white people with the ludicrous 1619 Project & the racist CRT, how about taking a good look at your own country & its leaders.:whistling::whistling::whistling:



Discovery of Mass Grave of 215 First Nations Children Shines Spotlight Onto Uncomfortable Truths



This is obviously embarrassing for a nation which has grown accustomed to “enlightened” virtue signaling often being the first to condemn alleged cases of government-sanctioned genocide and human rights abuses against nations like Libya, Syria and most recently China. The consequences of Canada’s liberal self-righteous condemnation of other nations’ bad behavior to their minority groups has resulted in Canada’s support for acts of war such as sanctions, spreading misinformation which often ignores the role of western intelligence agencies at the heart of many of the operations- especially across Africa and the ME- and has even led to the outright bombing of nations back to the stone age with the full backing of liberal imperialists among Canada’s power structure.

When such paragons of liberal enlightenment like Prime Minister Trudeau cry crocodile tears over the abuses committed against the First Nations over the decades- and the current mass grave situation is no exception- it is often undertaken with a fair dose of misdirection and fallacy. For instance, the language heard by virtue signalling politicians implies that these injustices are a thing of the past and the new “normal” involves a hypersensitivity and respect for First Nations.


https://matthewehret.substack.com/p/discovery-of-mass-grave-of-215-first

Ever looked at the chart of Canada to see where this total lack of self-awareness comes from?

I'll give you a clue. :neptune::conjunct:AC & the inability to see who they really are. While Canadians 'virtue-signal' & preach about peace & harmony, they are part of the British Monarchy. U.S.A. never wanted to be slaves to the King & they fought a revolution to be completely independent. Maybe it's time Canada broke free too?:unsure:

https://melpriestley.ca/exploring-canuck-astrology-reading-canadas-natal-chart/






I looked up the history of abolition of slavery, and it's not so simple. The concept precedes the Civil War by many centuries.
 

waybread

Well-known member
WB, while you're condemning white people with the ludicrous 1619 Project & the racist CRT, how about taking a good look at your own country & its leaders....

Blackbery, I never condemned white people or even mentioned the 1619 project or critical race theory. I guess you did.

My own country happens to be the United States of America. I was born and raised in the US. I am a US citizen and taxpayer. My primary residence has been in Canada for some years, however, and I am now a dual citizen. Most of my family is in the US, and prior to the border closure I spent months out of every year in the US.

Nobody in Canada today is justifying the former residential schools for First Nations children. The outlines and many of the facts of these schools have been known for decades. Probably you know about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its report of 2015. It's on-line if you'd like to look it up and read it.

It was known that these schools had cemeteries but no playgrounds for their inmates.

Recently more information has come to light. It will undergo a thorough review, involving the participation of First Nations people affected by this scandal.

The history of the U.S treatment of Native people is also tragic, scandalous, and sickening. Which is why it is shocking to read about white people today who want to ignore the history of minorities in the name of some kind of Anglo-approved "unity."

Unfortunately, history is about telling the truth about the past, as best as we can understand it. It is not about making the dominant group feel comfortable.

Blackbery, you know and understand too little Canadian history to lecture anyone about it. But if it makes you feel better, I did not vote for Justin Trudeau.

Incidentally, your own posts are full of "virtue signaling."

'Nuff said?? Shall we return to the actual thread topic?
 
Last edited:

Opal

Premium Member
And as I pointed out recently, the sun falls in Libra. It is also conjunct the south node. MC ruler Venus is in detriment in Scorpio. Not very encouraging for a nation's birth chart.

Uranus in the mundane 7th could show a military upset. which is why I think the OP chart makes more sense as the chart of the British defeat.

Which is true enough. Britain did not actually relinquish its territorial claim to the 13 colonies/states and western territories until the Treaty of Paris.

And come to think of it, Tim: what would be the chart for the Cornwallis surrender as such, if somehow different from a US birth chart of the identical time, date, and location??? Alternatively, where would you see that surrender in the OP chart?

Hi Waybread,

Yes, you did talk of Libra Sun opposing Nodes.

Uranus also, represents the legislative assembly, particularly those of the party in power. The way that communication is done with other, not so friendly nations, are represented by the seventh, friendly nations are represented by the 11th.
 

Opal

Premium Member
Blackbery, I never condemned white people or even mentioned the 1619 project or critical race theory. I guess you did.

My own country happens to be the United States of America. I was born and raised in the US. I am a US citizen and taxpayer. My primary residence has been in Canada for some years, however, and I am now a dual citizen. Most of my family is in the US, and prior to the border closure I spent months out of every year in the US.

Nobody in Canada today is justifying the former residential schools for First Nations children. The outlines and many of the facts of these schools have been known for decades. Probably you know about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its report of 2015. It's on-line if you'd like to look it up and read it.

It was known that these schools had cemeteries but no playgrounds for their inmates.

Recently more information has come to light. It will undergo a thorough review, involving the participation of First Nations people affected by this scandal.

The history of the U.S treatment of Native people is also tragic, scandalous, and sickening. Which is why it is shocking to read about white people today who want to ignore the history of minorities in the name of some kind of Anglo-approved "unity."

Unfortunately, history is about telling the truth about the past, as best as we can understand it. It is not about making the dominant group feel comfortable.

Blackbery, you know and understand too little Canadian history to lecture anyone about it. But if it makes you feel better, I did not vote for Justin Trudeau.

Incidentally, your own posts are full of "virtue signaling."

'Nuff said?? Shall we return to the actual thread topic?

I may be wrong, but I think that our present (Canada) Prime Ministers father, was in power, when the residential schools were abolished.
 
Top