Somna7H
Banned
if you read the thread you shall notice that a moderator
has moved thread to traditional board so dwarf planetoid pluto is an irrelevance
Sorry. I will be careful next time.
Why does Mars Joy in H6?
- Thread starter david starling
- Start date
Sorry. I will be careful next time.
waybread
Well-known member
There are several theories on planetary joys. I think they stem from Egyptian mythology about the transit of the sun/pharoah/soul through the afterlife. However, the ancient Hellenists love to rationalize and systemetize astrology, so a lot of that magical underlay was lost.
Basically the Hellenists assigned values to the houses based on their strength.Strength related to angularity (1st, 10th, followed by the 7th and 4th,) and relationship to the 1st house as defined by the major Ptolemaic aspects. The 12th, 8th, and 6th houses were inconjunct, unlike the other houses that sat in a sextile, trine, square, or opposition relationship to the first.
The inconjunct houses were the "bad" ones. Anciently, the 12th was the house of the bad spirit, the 11th was the house of the good spirit. The 5th was the house of good fortune, the 6th was the house of bad fortune. The 8th was the house of death (not good.)
The 12th appears as The Worst, and the greater malefic Saturn joys in this house. The lesser malefic Mars joys in the 6th house.
Just to continue, Jupiter as the greater benefic joys in the 11th house of the good spirit, while Venus as the lesser benefic joys in the 5th house.
So we see some parallels.
Then the sun (Apollo, god of prophecy) joys in the 9th house; while the sun's opposite number, the moon joys in the opposite third house. They were often called "god" and "godess" and both dealt with religious matters.
Then Mercury ruled the first house, which was sometimes called the helm or the rudder (of a ship.)
The joy system also relates to sect, with the day planets (sun, Jupiter, Saturn) above the horizon, and the night planets located below the horizon (moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury can go either way.)
There's more to this ordering scheme, but this is the basic strategy.
Basically the Hellenists assigned values to the houses based on their strength.Strength related to angularity (1st, 10th, followed by the 7th and 4th,) and relationship to the 1st house as defined by the major Ptolemaic aspects. The 12th, 8th, and 6th houses were inconjunct, unlike the other houses that sat in a sextile, trine, square, or opposition relationship to the first.
The inconjunct houses were the "bad" ones. Anciently, the 12th was the house of the bad spirit, the 11th was the house of the good spirit. The 5th was the house of good fortune, the 6th was the house of bad fortune. The 8th was the house of death (not good.)
The 12th appears as The Worst, and the greater malefic Saturn joys in this house. The lesser malefic Mars joys in the 6th house.
Just to continue, Jupiter as the greater benefic joys in the 11th house of the good spirit, while Venus as the lesser benefic joys in the 5th house.
So we see some parallels.
Then the sun (Apollo, god of prophecy) joys in the 9th house; while the sun's opposite number, the moon joys in the opposite third house. They were often called "god" and "godess" and both dealt with religious matters.
Then Mercury ruled the first house, which was sometimes called the helm or the rudder (of a ship.)
The joy system also relates to sect, with the day planets (sun, Jupiter, Saturn) above the horizon, and the night planets located below the horizon (moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury can go either way.)
There's more to this ordering scheme, but this is the basic strategy.
david starling
Well-known member
One correction: The Sun was personified by Helios in the Greek, and Sol in the Roman. Not Apollo. Conflating Helios/Sol with Apollo is a common mistake made by those not well-versed in the ancient Greco-Roman religions. I'm surprised that waybread erred in that regard.
Actually, one of the oldest surviving planetary depictions of a stellium in the constellation of Leo says that Mercury (Stilbon) belongs to Apollo - http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=cimrm31
Mercury was heavily with the arts and oracles in Hellenistic astrology, maybe just as much as Venus, Mercury also indicates knowledge and the young.
The craftsmanship of the constellation is very beautiful, not the kind of hogwash lines they print nowadays. I even made a meme to commemorate this:
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Oddity
Well-known member
Tricky question. When I studied with Bob Zoller, he said that Mars in Aries is an assassin. He goes out and kills whoever he's supposed to kill. End of. Whereas Mars in Libra, in the same role, would be more disposed to randomly chopping off heads.
I get that.
But if we're talking about joys, I don't like to see the malefics in theirs in good dignity. Or anything in good dignity in those houses. BUT...I'm only one person, and given that not many people are going to cross my path, or yours, or anyone's, who've lived through truly horrific 6th/12th house experiences...
The ones who I have seen? Tend to have Saturn in good dignity tucked away in 12, or Mars in good dignity, likewise, or something in good dignity in one of those houses - afflicted by Saturn or Mars. And if it's Mars or Saturn in the dark houses, they're usually strongly connected to at least one other planet (like in an overcoming square).
Again, small sample size, so I can come to no definite conclusion, but seeing those configurations makes me nervous. Anybody else from charts they've done?
Starsareround
Well-known member
So...if you have to have Saturn in the 12th house, it's possibly "better" for it to be in detriment, thereby allowing for some "damage control"?
Oddity
Well-known member
No firm conclusions as yet, again, we're talking only about the charts I've worked with. So this is tentative. I'd like to see more charts with these configurations, and be able to talk to the people who own those charts.
If you're coming to this from the perspective of modern astrology, it may be helpful to know that in traditional astrology, all planets are not active all the time. They need to be set off by something, and that something is going to be more than a transit.
So if the thing is going to happen, it's going to happen, but it's not likely to be active your entire life unless it's something like an unjust prison or mental hospital incarceration.
waybread
Well-known member
I would be, too, David. It depends upon the date. Helios, driver of the sun chariot was the early Greek sun god, separate from Apollo. With the passage of time, by the Hellenistic period of astrology, Helios was assimilated to Apollon (Apollo,) and occasionally to other gods. An Egyptian influence is postulated. Today, we like gods and goddesses to be described in tidy packages, but in ancient times, their identities were much less discrete.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Apollon.html
https://www.theoi.com/Titan/Helios.html
Apollo was the god of prophecy, which is a strong connection between the sun joying in the 9th house. His sister was Diana (Artemis) which is a strong connection with the moon joying in the 3rd house (opposite the 9th.)
waybread
Well-known member
I'd have to look it up (Petosiris???) but I think the idea was that, since the 12th house was such a hot mess anyway, Saturn was better off there than he would be in some perfectly decent house that he might just trash.
In all of the house systems but whole signs, I have Saturn in Virgo in the 12th. Everybody has Saturn somewhere, and I haven't found the 12th to be particularly onerous.
In all of the house systems but whole signs, I have Saturn in Virgo in the 12th. Everybody has Saturn somewhere, and I haven't found the 12th to be particularly onerous.
david starling
Well-known member
Helios was a Titan, and personified the Sun, long before Apollo was on the scene. In Egypt, there were also two Sun gods, Ra and Horus. Helios was equivalent to Ra, as personification of the Sun. Apollo was derived from Horus.
waybread
Well-known member
Well, whatever you say, David. Apollo as a god goes back to the earliest Greek writings; but just didn't become known as a sun god till much later. During the period of Hellenistic astrology in Egypt, there was a certain amount of blending of functions. Older gods' functions got reapportioned to newer gods or gods of other locations. Different gods got assimilated into one another. Plutarch said the Egyptians did not find these metamorphoses and contradictions confusing (as we might today) because all of the different gods were understood to be manifestations of the underlying divine truth.
SunConjunctUranus
Well-known member
Actually, one of the oldest surviving planetary depictions of a stellium in the constellation of Leo says that Mercury (Stilbon) belongs to Apollo - http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=cimrm31
Mercury was heavily with the arts and oracles in Hellenistic astrology, maybe just as much as Venus, Mercury also indicates knowledge and the young.
The craftsmanship of the constellation is very beautiful, not the kind of hogwash lines they print nowadays. I even made a meme to commemorate this:
Nice petosiris! Keep it going.
You are exactly real Gemini ascendant and Mercurial native.
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Tandy
Banned
Mars is malefic, causing strife through negative action in old history astrology. Wars. Ravishings to show might regardless of emotion or sanctity. Maybe a reedeeming characteristic might be the strongest survive. In traditional chart Mars is seen as a troublemaker - where strife shows up. In modern charts - it's an activater or catalyst.
The retrograde Mars in traditional readings is that he comes back to previous trouble to overpower it later. You can see that in world wars and such.
Mars takes advantage of weak people but also comes back to rescue them when they need help. It is a very unemotional planet, more intent on survival than feelings maybe more than the greatest malefic Saturn that will at least feign interest. Mars doesn't care. People who don't care are considered malefic so probably it was associated with that early thinking.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I feel Mars could take joy in the 6th because it's having to actually face the places that bring bad fortune and strife i.e. Mars is actually going to the battlefield to fight, rather than to the hospital for example and fighting a nurse who didn't even do anything bad to him
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
On our traditional forum
instead of inventing as we go along
it is common practice to cite sources for information posted
tsmall
Premium Member
Agree with Odds here about the reference to the Thema. But you don't really need it. The nature of Mars is to sever, and separate. The 6th is critical injury to the body. Mars, the god of war, is
In the Thema we see Sag as the 6th house...and what is more sanguine than blood? The nature of Mars is to sever and separate, but to do so in ways that harm the body. As opposed to Saturn, that old SoB, who harms our soul by making us feel excluded. The 12th is things that are bad for the spirit. Addiction, mental illnes, etc. The 6th, for being Lunar, is things that harm the flesh. No wonder the greater and lesser malefic joy in these houses?
waybread
Well-known member
welcome back, tsmall.
Did I get this right? In the Thema Mundi published in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi
we've got Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 6th house, but not Mars, which is in the 5th, in Scorpio.
The joys are in different houses than the planets in the Thema Mundi. These seem to be different systems.
Did I get this right? In the Thema Mundi published in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi
we've got Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 6th house, but not Mars, which is in the 5th, in Scorpio.
The joys are in different houses than the planets in the Thema Mundi. These seem to be different systems.