Omnisphericus
Well-known member
I know that Robert Zoller has rectified Lady Diana's chart. But I do not have that chart.
Hyleg and Alcocoden
- Thread starter Omnisphericus
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I know that Robert Zoller has rectified Lady Diana's chart. But I do not have that chart.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
I will try to give a shoot, even though I've never used WH for determining the H & A.
Day chart.
Sun in 8th but in feminine sign, it can not be Hyleg.
Moon in cadent house and in masculine sign, it can not be Hyleg.
Chart is Preventional, PoF (in your chart it is missing) is in 3Leo in 9th house.
Dispositors of the degree of PoF:
Sun (domicile and triplicity) and Saturn (term and face).
PoF is aspecting neither of both.
Now we look at the Syzygy degree.
It is a day chart so we look for the last new moon degree.
The last new moon lunation occurs on 21 Gemini.
The Almuten of that degree are Mercury and Saturn (they both hold 5 points).
Because Mercury is combust and in 8th I would take Saturn in 2nd being the Hyleg, though he is Retrograde but in its own sign.
So, Saturn at 27 Capricorn (in 2nd house) is Hyleg.
Venus, the triplicity ruler is Alcocoden because it is the only dispositor of Saturn which makes an aspect with him.
Venus cadent in 6th house but in its own sign would give her middle years (45).
But this is far from the real number. As I said I've never use this technique with whole sign houses.
Culpeper
Premium Member
Omnisphericus:
After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.
My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=25&pictureid=4321
I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.
The following two examples died violent deaths:
John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.
Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.
Whole Sign Houses used.
After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.
My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=25&pictureid=4321
I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.
The following two examples died violent deaths:
John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.
Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.
Whole Sign Houses used.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Omnisphericus, some years ago I encountered an interesting method which involves a little maths, described as "Ptolemy's Method" by Astrologer Alessandro Barone
Ptolemy's method
When the apheta or Hyleg is occidental, the anaretic point is the western horizon i.e. : the man/woman dies when his/her apheta sets.
After computing the apheta's setting time, correct it by adding or subtracting the horary parts of the aspects the apheta encounters during its journey towards its setting.
The horary parts are, in modern terms, the meridian distance of the aspecting planet/s divided by its semiarc. These horary parts are subtracted from the years of the Hyleg in full, if the aspecting planet is on the ascendant, and proportionally decreased the closer it gets to the descendant.
Princess Diana's case illustrated the method:
Hyleg setting time +42d25m
Corrections
opp Saturn -15d43m
sext Mars -06d58m
sext Venus +01d26m
conj Mercury +01d33m
conj Sun +02d22m
trine Moon +11d27m
Total 36d32m
The time of death should then be 36.53 years (according to Ptolemy)
Interesting that the result is consistent with the date of the event, although if the ascendant were rectified by no more than a couple of minutes, it would have given the exact date.
Ptolemy's method
When the apheta or Hyleg is occidental, the anaretic point is the western horizon i.e. : the man/woman dies when his/her apheta sets.
After computing the apheta's setting time, correct it by adding or subtracting the horary parts of the aspects the apheta encounters during its journey towards its setting.
The horary parts are, in modern terms, the meridian distance of the aspecting planet/s divided by its semiarc. These horary parts are subtracted from the years of the Hyleg in full, if the aspecting planet is on the ascendant, and proportionally decreased the closer it gets to the descendant.
Princess Diana's case illustrated the method:
Hyleg setting time +42d25m
Corrections
opp Saturn -15d43m
sext Mars -06d58m
sext Venus +01d26m
conj Mercury +01d33m
conj Sun +02d22m
trine Moon +11d27m
Total 36d32m
The time of death should then be 36.53 years (according to Ptolemy)
Interesting that the result is consistent with the date of the event, although if the ascendant were rectified by no more than a couple of minutes, it would have given the exact date.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I am aware however that we are discussing the Hyleg and Alcocoden so let us consider Alessandro Barone describing Princess Diana's Hyleg and Alcocoden
Princess Diana's Hyleg and Alcocoden determination
Sun in feminine sign and feminine quadrant: Moon below horizon, both discarded.
Lot of Fortune is Hyleg - Venus same rising time/declination - Ptolemy describes this situation as "equivalent signs", where length of day/night are equal . Their longitudinal difference from the solstice lies exactly in the same degree: Venus 35°36' and Hyleg 35°2'
This condition overcomes all others for eligibility as Alchochoden.
Venus is Alchochoden.
Venus is not cadent, so gives maximum years = 82.
These years must be diminished by 1/5 for any of the following 5 conditions, if missing:
House: Venus not cadent.
Dignity: Venus in domicile .
Oriental to the Sun : Venus oriental
direct in motion: Venus direct
in Haiz: Venus is not, being below the horizon.
Venus offers 82*4/5 = 65.6 years. BUT Venus afflicted by trine Saturn, from sign of short ascension, cutting Venus' years by the minor years of Saturn, i.e. 30.
65.6 - 30 = 35.6 = age Alchochoden gives for Princess Diana's death.
Very close: but we currently are unable to evaluate quantitatively:
1. Additional time offered by even a negative aspect with a benefic planet - square with the Moon in this case: measured in months or days, but no reliable tradition re: how many months or days granted.
2. Nodes influence: some say they add or diminish, others say they neither add nor diminish & in this case Venus is in aspect with the Nodes. So, due to these uncertainties, the result of this traditional method is reasonable.
Princess Diana's Hyleg and Alcocoden determination
Sun in feminine sign and feminine quadrant: Moon below horizon, both discarded.
Lot of Fortune is Hyleg - Venus same rising time/declination - Ptolemy describes this situation as "equivalent signs", where length of day/night are equal . Their longitudinal difference from the solstice lies exactly in the same degree: Venus 35°36' and Hyleg 35°2'
This condition overcomes all others for eligibility as Alchochoden.
Venus is Alchochoden.
Venus is not cadent, so gives maximum years = 82.
These years must be diminished by 1/5 for any of the following 5 conditions, if missing:
House: Venus not cadent.
Dignity: Venus in domicile .
Oriental to the Sun : Venus oriental
direct in motion: Venus direct
in Haiz: Venus is not, being below the horizon.
Venus offers 82*4/5 = 65.6 years. BUT Venus afflicted by trine Saturn, from sign of short ascension, cutting Venus' years by the minor years of Saturn, i.e. 30.
65.6 - 30 = 35.6 = age Alchochoden gives for Princess Diana's death.
Very close: but we currently are unable to evaluate quantitatively:
1. Additional time offered by even a negative aspect with a benefic planet - square with the Moon in this case: measured in months or days, but no reliable tradition re: how many months or days granted.
2. Nodes influence: some say they add or diminish, others say they neither add nor diminish & in this case Venus is in aspect with the Nodes. So, due to these uncertainties, the result of this traditional method is reasonable.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.
DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
So the system could work for people who die in accidents or homicides. But we need more examples to confirm how Hyleg and Alcoccoden work.
JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.
JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.
Jupiter1st
Member
hi Omnisphericus and others...I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Depending On Mercury's situation, it can change. Can I ask you guys to analyze my longevity. I know many people don't like to do that but I've already done it for myself. I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you guys think?
Attachments
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Hi Culpeper,
Your work though out of tradition is very impressive. It seems that your method of not (necessarily) having aspect between H & A obviously works. Many of the medieval authors does not accept Sun as Hyleg in 8th, and those who are accepting it, are accepting the Sun in 8th only if in masculine sign (while Diana's Sun is in feminine sign).
Why did you eliminate the Moon as your Hyleg?
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Yes, JupiterAsc it would be great to give more insights on your math, I'm too a little bit confused. Because Venus IS cadent. Can you give more details of your method of calculation?
I suppose you are talking about the Right and Oblique Ascension?!
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
This is another example how the modern medicine is giving years to the length of life of men.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/v...&start=0&sid=ceace887ec84462e07a62f26c128046c
Here's an interesting forum discussion about the adding/subtracting according to Ptolomy.
I suppose that this is the method of which JupiterAsc was talking.
Here's an interesting forum discussion about the adding/subtracting according to Ptolomy.
I suppose that this is the method of which JupiterAsc was talking.
DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Thank you DreamingTheSeas, I'm reading it at the moment.
It is very informative but in the same time very confusing because it seems out that there are so many different interpretations of Ptolomy and his work.
I'm trying to follow the calculations which Bob makes about finding the direction between the Hyleg and Dc. Bob says that Ptolomy didn't use Alcocoden. I've not read Ptolomy but the author on the Angelicus Merlin group who has made a summary on H & A from different authors and which I'm quoting often here on this thread is saying this (under the section of finding the Alcocoden according to Ptolomy):
Jupiter1st
Member
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Maybe you can take Jupiter in 1st as Alcocoden of the Asc.
It is angular and in exaltation, so it can give its major years.
Don't panic about the years you have calculate. As you can see we empirically try to investigate what from the older texts is functioning and what is not functioning. I would suggest to you to take these judgments as play and do not take it seriously, it is not a matter of proven fact and non-changeability at this point. We are still searching for the most accurate method, till then be relaxed.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Hyleg Acording to Ptolomy
Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.
I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.
Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:
(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html)
Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.
I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.
Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:
(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html)
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Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Ptolomy's Tetrabiblos
In his book Tetrabiblos in chapter 10 (book III) called "Of Length of Life" Ptolomy says:
Because the whole chapter is about 6 pages I decided to put it in a pdf file. You can download it from here:
http://uploading.com/files/9ma36fd3/10.+Of+Length+of+Life.pdf/
I suggest all who are interested to study this chapter so we can fully investigate the Ptolomy's method of calculating and directing the Hyleg.
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Definition of Prorogator
A term used by Ptolemy in connection with a method of direction, effected by proportion of horary times - semi-arcs. One must distinguish between the Prorogator, the body directed and the Prorogation or method by which it is directed. The Prorogator is the Apheta or Life Giver, in contrast to the Anareta. By day and in aphetical places, the Sun holds the position of Prorogator; by night the Moon. (v. "Hyleg.")
In his book Tetrabiblos in chapter 10 (book III) called "Of Length of Life" Ptolomy says:
Because the whole chapter is about 6 pages I decided to put it in a pdf file. You can download it from here:
http://uploading.com/files/9ma36fd3/10.+Of+Length+of+Life.pdf/
I suggest all who are interested to study this chapter so we can fully investigate the Ptolomy's method of calculating and directing the Hyleg.
-----------------------------
Definition of Prorogator
A term used by Ptolemy in connection with a method of direction, effected by proportion of horary times - semi-arcs. One must distinguish between the Prorogator, the body directed and the Prorogation or method by which it is directed. The Prorogator is the Apheta or Life Giver, in contrast to the Anareta. By day and in aphetical places, the Sun holds the position of Prorogator; by night the Moon. (v. "Hyleg.")
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jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
sandstone, where in Solar Fire is the option for calculating the Hyleg?