Equal house or Placidus?

byjove

byjove

Account Closed
Good question...err...both for now. I didn't press beyond that just yet. Both for now as I'm confident in both (for me). I'll be keen to see how Project Hindsight's future revelations have on the popularity of Whole Sign. I see more and more followers on here, it's like a secret revolution. Nonetheless, I'll compare both systems now. What about you Rockfish? :tongue:
 
RockFish

RockFish

Well-known member
I'm willing to research more deeply. I'll stick with Placidus for now, but I have to get my lazy self to look for the origins of each system. I think this will help, I really need to know the reasoning behind each system and then decide which one seems more plausible according to my own points of view on astrology.


With the little I know, Equal makes a lot of theoretical sense, but Placidus has been accurate so far. Mind still bogged. :andy:
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
Well these sites helped me learn about Whole Signs, if it's any help:

http://classicalastrology.tribe.net/thread/4f214879-77d3-41e2-8365-50f5f753761d

http://www.astrologycritics.com/whole-sign-houses-the-oldest-house-system.html

http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/06/10/whole-sign-houses/

I think they're relatively straight-forward, which is nice. There is a strong
claim on those sites for it to be the oldest, and originally used by the Greeks,
before they passed it to India, and the Romans copied it. Placidus is from
Medieval times, no?
 
RockFish

RockFish

Well-known member
Yes, medieval, and some say it is a misreading of one of Ptolemy's treaties, I think. I guess someone said this in this very thread, but I'm too tired right now to go back and read it all again. Will do it later, there's a lot of good in this thread.

Thanks for the links, very interesting and comprehensive. It seems Whole House is really what the greeks "prescribed". According to one of those articles, the later house systems all stemed from misreadings of the original texts, which is definitely disheartening...

Now that I've seen the bog of the house systems and how mired astrology is in it, it's surprising to me that we can actually extract any accuracy out of it. I think this adds strength to Starlink's claim that we use intuition as much as astrological knowledge to read a chart, that the chart is an instrument of our intuition. I want to think there's a core of mathematical truth to astrology, that we can access and make clear use of it, and in my point of view this would give astrology a completely different and elevated status in our culture, but since it became so fragmented and confused through the eras, it's a quest that would take many years and a lot of research and study from someone.
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
RockFish, I totally understand. I was particularly disheartened after reading about all of that. Those articles all seem to tie in very well with that Project Hindsight and the translating of Ancient Greek texts on the matter. I think there's a lot of important parts to this now:

1) Even if much of what is done today was misinterpreted, I don't believe all of
astrology for the past few hundred years (Placidus) or few thousand (back to
the ancient Greeks) is countless. So much has been done, it can't all go to
waste.

2) If I understand it correctly, the Greeks didn't say 'don't use other house
systems', rather, you were supposed to use other systems for 'measuring
planetary strength only' and whole sign for the topics. So, we get to keep
some of the systems, no?

3) I've been reading other links passed on to me by whole sign astrologers on
here, and it's very deep, very interesting stuff. The depth of the craft is
incredible. I think it was Vetis Valens who wrote that back then they had
problems with house systems back then. That could be seen as
inconsistency, but I see it as relief - we haven't messed everything up!
Even the 'best of them' had these problems.

This link, is like the mother of Whole Sign Guidance. This reveals much of
the Whole Sign Craft.
http://www.astrologycom.com/livingsigns1.html

By Jove
 
G

gaer

Well-known member
byjove said:
So, Gaer, do you use one system or the other, or different ones for different
branches e.g. Horary?
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I don't do horary. I stick with Placidus, but the choice of house systems remains the biggest problem I have in astrology, so I am really agreeing with something you said much earlier. :)

It's important to remember that for those of us who have rising signs very close to 0 Aries or 0 Libra, these problems pretty much disappear. There are only minor changes except in VERY high or low latitudes.

My AC is about 10 Virgo. :)
 
astrologer50

astrologer50

Banned
gaer said:
I don't do horary. I stick with Placidus, but the choice of house systems remains the biggest problem I have in astrology, so I am really agreeing with something you said much earlier. :)

It's important to remember that for those of us who have rising signs very close to 0 Aries or 0 Libra, these problems pretty much disappear. There are only minor changes except in VERY high or low latitudes.

My AC is about 10 Virgo. :)
Click to expand...

Here in UK it's not 'just' high or low Lats it's very much 'time' as certain signs like Cancer, Virgo and Leo have approx 4 - 41/2hours rising time and Aquarius and Pisces get approx 30-40minutes. There are massive changes in my and many I have seen here that don't just move planets from one house but two houses (like my own)
 
G

gaer

Well-known member
astrologer50 said:
Here in UK it's not 'just' high or low Lats it's very much 'time' as certain signs like Cancer, Virgo and Leo have approx 4 - 41/2hours rising time and Aquarius and Pisces get approx 30-40minutes. There are massive changes in my and many I have seen here that don't just move planets from one house but two houses (like my own)
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I don't think you understand my point.

The least amount of "tilt" of the MC/IC axis is at 0 Libra or 0 Aries at ANY latitude inside the Arctic and Antarctic Circles.

The maximum amount of tilt is at 0 Cancer or 0 Capricorn at ANY latitude.

However, the tilt or unevenness of the houses increases as latitude increases. The UK, even the lower parts of it, is rather high, and Scotland gets to 55N and higher. Even if you are born near London (southern UK), you will have very unequal houses even if your AC is barely in Aquarius or at the end of Sagittarius because it is close to that magic "zero Capricorn" point of maximum distortion.

Explaining the math. :)

g
 
A

antares_reborn

Active member
i go with placidus.....i dont go along with the " this one works best for me ". After people have tryed them all out.
thats like trying to manipulate your purpose/fate. It would be great if there was only 1 house system. All these house systems undermine astrology. So much so, i tend to look more to signs and aspects between the planets because this isn't up for debate....i like placidus, because i think the M.C should be the 10th house cusp...Koch seems to be very similar for me too.
 
Modcleopatra

Modcleopatra

Banned
I prefer Placidus. The wikipedia article is TERRIBLY unclear as to how the MC works in the Equal or Whole House Systems, with this bizarre statement, in bold, that somehow attempts to clear it up. That statement does not do it for me. No one as of yet has been able to explain it to me. Ah well.

Interestingly, Placidus was popularized as a reaction to the current trend of heliocentrism going on during the Scientific Revolution in Europe, by none other than the Catholic Church. (So even those who believe astrology is a work of the devil and goes against Christ can still use Placidus, nice.)

Placidus is the most recent form of house systems. Hellenistic Astrology, beginning in the 1st and 2nd centuries BCE, used Whole House. Equal House became popularized later on, and Placidus, as I said, is the most recent and modern of the house systems. There are issues with it, namely the issues with house size as the latitude increases or decreases significantly from the equator.

I like that Placidus is geocentric. While our solar system is obviously not (right guys, right? we orbit the sun I think...), we are BORN on the earth, not the Sun. Our center, our grounding, is in the Earth. So our experience of the stars if from our place on the Earth. We are reaching for the Sun, the Moon, etc.


At least, those are my thoughts.


mod.
 
astrologer50

astrologer50

Banned
antares_reborn said:
i go with placidus.....i dont go along with the " this one works best for me ". After people have tryed them all out.
thats like trying to manipulate your purpose/fate. It would be great if there was only 1 house system. All these house systems undermine astrology. So much so, i tend to look more to signs and aspects between the planets because this isn't up for debate....i like placidus, because i think the M.C should be the 10th house cusp...Koch seems to be very similar for me too.
Click to expand...

I'm a devote Equal house astrologer and have proved time and again the validity of Equal house system, especially when placidus gives huge distortions of houses :innocent:
 
Virinchi

Virinchi

Well-known member
i used to think all houses are equal until i found K.P method of astrology (this is based on vedic but not totally) which went to the minute detail of a horoscope by calculating exact position of cusps and planets and their sublords
this method follows unequal placidus and it proved me right in 100% charts i've seen
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
Modcleopatra said:
I prefer Placidus. The wikipedia article is TERRIBLY unclear as to how the MC works in the Equal or Whole House Systems, with this bizarre statement, in bold, that somehow attempts to clear it up. That statement does not do it for me. No one as of yet has been able to explain it to me. Ah well.

Interestingly, Placidus was popularized as a reaction to the current trend of heliocentrism going on during the Scientific Revolution in Europe, by none other than the Catholic Church. (So even those who believe astrology is a work of the devil and goes against Christ can still use Placidus, nice.)

Placidus is the most recent form of house systems. Hellenistic Astrology, beginning in the 1st and 2nd centuries BCE, used Whole House. Equal House became popularized later on, and Placidus, as I said, is the most recent and modern of the house systems. There are issues with it, namely the issues with house size as the latitude increases or decreases significantly from the equator.

I like that Placidus is geocentric. While our solar system is obviously not (right guys, right? we orbit the sun I think...), we are BORN on the earth, not the Sun. Our center, our grounding, is in the Earth. So our experience of the stars if from our place on the Earth. We are reaching for the Sun, the Moon, etc.


At least, those are my thoughts.


mod.
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Hi Mod Cleo!

Yeah, I notice that sometimes the explanations are terrible. Well, from my understanding, Whole Sign and Equal consider the MC and 10th to be directly related, but not necessarily the same. The 10th retains it's significance, but the MC adds 'individualism', by having a position of it's own. It can fall in the 9th-11/12th, not sure if it's limit is the 11th or 12th my bad! So whatever is going on with your 10th, having MC in 9th adds an element of affairs of that house, e.g. travel, work related to teaching, religion, philosophy etc. while having it in the 11th involves a more ideas-driven career, society or perhaps involve friends. Having the MC point in the 10th re-doubles career ambition and suggests a success-hungry personality which places world-achievement likely above all else.

These are very basic interps. of course which I'm just doing to fill in where Wiki should have. I think the above will show how it works. I'm interested in your ideas about helio vs geo-centric perspectives. I don't think I've considered the systems from that angle before, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of this debate!

Astrologer50's point on Placidus house-skewing is all-too clear for me, a number of my houses are shrunk drastically and a number enlarged. So that continues to be a perhaps fatal flaw in Placidus, the solution? :w00t:
 
astrologer50

astrologer50

Banned
w
hile having it in the 11th involves a more ideas-driven career, society or perhaps involve friends.
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I don't feel having MC in my 11th suggests career or involves friends or even large organisations. The sign MC is just as important in Equal as in any other house system. I have never seen an MC in 12th or 7th, so maybe just 8,9,10,11th houses.

MC is same as MC in ANY house system. Having the starting point of 10th house cusp is just as important has the starting point of any house cusp 2,3,5,6th etc.

http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false
page 168 onwards.

"-Margaret Hone puts forth an excellent argument in favor of Equal House in her book, "Applied Astrology" which is why it is the default for SkyViewZone.
Jeff Mayo and the Faculty for Astrological Studies also favors this house system."
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/hone.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hone

"Margaret Hone, Charles Carter, and others founded an educating body called the The Faculty of Astrological Studies in 1948 in England. Carter was the first principal, succeeded by Hone, who was herself succeeded by Jeff Mayo. And while the FAS doesn't today call itself a teaching body as Hone and Carter did in the 1950s and 1960s, its courses are available online through Deb Houlding's excellent site. The course of study is operated by other thoughtful English astrologers. The Astrological Association they cofounded there ten years later still exists."

Floating MC issue

"The issue of the Midheaven (MC) often not being aligned with the 10th house in the equal-houses system is often cited. The Midheaven is considered a point of ambition and reknown, and some find it essential for it to be associated with the 10th house which deals with career and public image."
http://www.astrologyindepth.com/House#Floating_MC_issue

"I prefer the Equal House system, for several rea­sons. For example, it matches the sizes of the Zodiac signs, which are equal, and it is the oldest system, supported already by Ptolemy. Furthermore, it keeps the aspecting relations between the Houses intact - a relation that helps a lot in understanding the Houses and interpreting them in the chart."
http://www.horoscoper.net/astrology/houses.htm
 
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byjove

byjove

Account Closed
RockFish said:
I'm willing to research more deeply. I'll stick with Placidus for now, but I have to get my lazy self to look for the origins of each system. I think this will help, I really need to know the reasoning behind each system and then decide which one seems more plausible according to my own points of view on astrology.


With the little I know, Equal makes a lot of theoretical sense, but Placidus has been accurate so far. Mind still bogged. :andy:
Click to expand...

So how's the research going? Anything new, anything strange?
 
astrologer50

astrologer50

Banned
“Grant Lewi used the Equal house system. Some twentieth century English astrologers promoted it because it did away with the great extremes of house sizes at latitudes far from the equator. It's also found in many traditional systems. But, since houses are measured in equal 30 degree arcs from the Ascendant, the Midheaven is excluded from the house building equation. I like Rudhyar's idea that we must include the Midheaven (vertical axis or "spine" of the chart) because "we don't live lying down."
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001054.htm

“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm

“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
 
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