Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Bina

Well-known member
The Lilith on astro.com in the additional objects is really the Black Moon Lilith (BML) and not Dark Moon Lilith.

To get the position of all 3 Lilith on astro.com (copied from darkstar astrology):

Choose “Extended Chart Selection”

In “Additional objects“, select “Lilith”. This is Black Moon Lilith (Mean)

In “additional asteroids or “hypothetical” planets” add 1181, h13, h58. This will show asteroid Lilith, Black Moon Lilith (True/Osculating) and Dark Moon Lilith.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Checked out a sample chart on astro.com: the oscillating apogee is listed as "true lilith" and as "Black Moon"-when selected it shows on the chart as "osc L"; another selection is the interpolated lunar apogee-it shows on the chart as "lilit"; finally the simple Lilith (obviously refering to the commonly referenced or "Dark Moon" Lilith), selected in the big additional objects box (along with Part of Fortune, Vertex, etc) shows on the chart as the little crescent moon on a cross symbol: it is this latter symbol, the Dark Moon Lilith, which I use and to which I have been referring.
 

!4C

Well-known member
another selection is the interpolated lunar apogee-it shows on the chart as "lilit"
You are right. Both lilith asteroid (1181) and interpolated lunar apogee (h21) show as "Lilit" on the chart...ain't that confusing.
 
Last edited:

!4C

Well-known member
I don't think waldemath is that important...unless it is a cloaked deathstar from an alien race. That could be significant.

The following diagram shows lunar black moon and lunar apogee are equal by geometry (when viewed from earth). http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Personally, I would like to see the name Lilith reserved for the asteroid, and Black Moon reserved for the empty focus in lunar ecliptic. My guess, it was this way originally.
 
Last edited:

Zarathu

Account Closed
I don't think waldemath is that important...unless it is a cloaked deathstar from an alien race. That could be significant.

The following diagram shows lunar black moon and lunar apogee are equal by geometry (when viewed from earth). http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Personally, I would like to see the name Lilith reserved for the asteroid, and Black Moon reserved for the empty focus in lunar ecliptic. My guess, it was this way originally.

Lilith is reserved for the asteroid, since the apogee is actually called Black Moon Lilith, and the invisible planet is called Dark Moon Lilith

But I would disagree with you about DML. Since I've been using it for more than 15 years, I can chart difficult things to it. If you read one of my posts on my website above, I used it to identify illnesses of four famous people. Anything that is associated with it in a chart goes to the dark side of the key word spectrum, unless mitigated in some way. My bet is that you have not used it because, a) you either have to have Ivy's little book with the ephemeris in it, or b) Solar Fire, or c) you have not gone out of your way to find it in the online program.

But each to his own. I reccomend that you start putting DML into your charts and notice its inimical notions. However, to really use it you will probably need to buy Ivy's book on the invisible planet that she thought was real. That explains all about its use.

z

p.s.: Dr. Farr and I both believe that it is a cloaked deathstar.... Good Call! :eek::eek:
 
Last edited:

Bina

Well-known member
I think the focus has shifted over the last 10-20 years, whereas a few decades ago more importance was given to the Dark Moon Lilith or Waldemath's moon, now most of the books and articles about Lilith are on Black Moon Lilith. But still it is just a matter of opinion which is more important. Perhaps they are really quite similar in their qualities and influence on a chart, since also the names are so alike. When the possibility of a second moon (Dark Moon Lilith) first arose, it must have been pretty exciting astrologically, considering it's implications.

I have been observing BML in my chart, especially transits of the slower planets to BML, and these transits have a huge impact on my life and have brought along major changes!
As for DML, i just added it to my chart, according to astro.com (h58), and it ends up in a precarious place- opp. my Pluto-Uranus conjunction and close quincunx to the moon and close semi-sextile Mercury, that seems pretty heavy, going by what has been written about it..
 
Last edited:

dr. farr

Well-known member
There is much of interest regarding BML, and I think our AW member Frisangel has posted about and and has been looking into it for some time.
However, my experiences regarding Dark Moon Lilith have made me raise my estimate of that factor almost to the level of the Lunar Nodes, as I have posted before, I consider very much like a secondary (mini) South Node (Dragon's Tail), in always pointing out pitfalls, challenges, weakesses, difficulties, in any given chart. And for this purpose-like the SN-it is valuable because it can indicate what we need to be careful about, or to give special attention to...
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi everyone,
There is so much confusion about the glyph used for 'The Black Moon CALLED Lilith'.
I don't want to cause any disturbance regarding interpretation of the point but Bina is right regarding the symbolic glyph used at Astro. com. Other software may use a similar glyph for (other) versions of 'Lilith', yet the 'Lilith' (and its glyph) referred to in the additional box on Extended charts at Astro. com free charts is for, and gives the MEAN position of the 'Black Moon called Lilith.' It is this point upon which my
years of study have been founded. In 2000, after publication of an article in which 'I fondly call it BML' (as per SU, MO, ME, VE etc.,) the letters appear to have become commonplace in useage. In the article I commented that Black Moon called Lilith appears to surface through the characteristics of its opposing sign. This is now referred to as the position of Priapus...the moon's perigee. Yet, the Moon does not have an even regular orbit. It would seem to me that MEAN BML's opposing position would be other than that of Priapus. :confused:
I am now attempting to incorporate the meaning of the TRUE position into the study and the difference between the two.:rolleyes::andy:

The other versions of the calculated points and their positions have been provided by !40 in post #20.
Asteroid Lilith is listed under #1181 on astro. com. In my humble opinion, its interpretation as a physical object will be other than that for a non-physical calculated point.
For those interested, I can recommend Juan Revilla's website RIYAL, which gives an astronomical explanation of, as well as his work with the points.

I believe the original confusion arose from the French 'La Lune Noire', which was translated as 'Black' as well as 'Dark' Moon.
As I have understood it, the DARK Moon.....with no attachment of the word Lilith...refers to the hypothetical 2nd satellite of Earth supposedly observed during the 17th century. Is this the Waldemath Moon given as H58 on astro. com charts?

Many years ago I read that Ivy Goldstein's work was based upon incorrect calculations, which would therefore place a question mark upon the observations made. I have never read her work, so am unable to form an opinion.

My 2 cents.:smile:
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Many years ago I read that Ivy Goldstein's work was based upon incorrect calculations, which would therefore place a question mark upon the observations made. I have never read her work, so am unable to form an opinion.

My 2 cents.:smile:

The problem is that its really hard to have incorrect calculations for an object that isn't visible in real space. So Ivy's calculations are as good as Solar Fire's calculations.

But the bottom line is: does the ephemeris that Ivy worked out actually work when you calculate it and put it into a chart? In a recent client chart of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder, I would have expected DML to figure prominently. I was not surprised that the exemplary asteroid, IMO, of BPD which is Dejanira, is actually conjunct DML in the natal chart. And like Dejanira, aspects every other planet in the chart.
 

!4C

Well-known member
My impression from previous reading, BML is viewed as an anti-moon. Meaning it shows where we go a against our instincts and might suffer consequences as a result.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Not directly related here, but there are also two other asteroids which I always look at that have an impact similar to DML, and its important to me if they have an aspect to DML because it can augment DML in "special" ways.

The first is Nemesis: where you have your Achiles Heel. showing the source of a problem.

Involves hard lessons learning humility and detachment. It can show lost and separation from one's children or from the fruits of one's labors.

The second is Damocles: Where the sword is often falling on you, or where you have constant stress from transitions, changes of direction, the destruction of the old to make way for the new, the removal of one arrangement of scenery in one's life to make way for a new arrangement, the replacement of an old paradigm with a new one. In a current chart that I am working on, both Nemesis and Damocles trine DML.

Since the inconjunct aspect is the aspect of re-organization, and things costing more in time and energy than they looked like at the surface, I especially look to see if Damocles is tightly aspecting any other angle or planet in the chart IN AN INCONJUNCT ASPECT which would augment its effect big time. And in the current chart its inconjuncting the MH.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
My use of the Dark Moon Lilith (position as calculated by astro.com using the "lilith" choice in the big additional objects box) has resulted in numerous "hits" consistent with the "nature" attributed to (Dark Moon) Lilith, in the literature; see for example my references (earlier in this thread) to DM Lilith's relationships in the Newtown school shooting massacre, and I have found additional DM Lilith connections with that chart, with the charts of 25 of the victims, with the earlier Challenger space disaster, etc etc. I do not know what exactly the astro.com DM Lilith placement-calculations are based upon, but whatever they are they really "work" (make sense in delineations) and I have come to trust them as very effective.
 
Last edited:

Frisiangal

Well-known member
My use of the Dark Moon Lilith (position as calculated by astro.com using the "lilith" choice in the big additional objects box) has resulted in numerous "hits" consistent with the "nature" attributed to (Dark Moon) Lilith, in the literature; see for example my references (earlier in this thread) to DM Lilith's relationships in the Newtown school shooting massacre, and I have found additional DM Lilith connections with that chart, with the charts of 25 of the victims, with the earlier Challenger space disaster, etc etc. I do not know what exactly the astro.com DM Lilith placement-calculations are based upon, but whatever they are they really "work" (make sense in delineations) and I have come to trust them as very effective.

This is very interesting, Dr. Farr.
As I understand you, it is the MEAN position you are using, as I do ? It is merely a question of whether one chooses to call the astrological point Black or Dark ? You are NOT referring to, or using the Waldemath Moon...the supposed 2nd satellite of Earth?

It has been observed that progressed or transiting MEAN Black/Dark Moon called Lilith coincides with the periods when 'one gives up the ghost'; i.e. the return to the 'non-physical' and 'formless' state. Its position has also coincided with the period of mourning by the grievers. Is the wearing of black merely coincidental? I've also seen it in charts of murder victims.

And what about the 'ghost (image) that haunts', or the non-physical return?
There are some extremely interesting correlations with the positions of natal, secondary progressed, solar arc and transiting Black Moon Lilith, according to how one interprets them, and the current development around England's long deceased King Richard III and his skeletal remains that have finally been found.
Literally, a ghost from the past.:smile:
 

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
Has anyone come across progressed transits to Lilith/natal points? I am refering to black moon lilith. I ask because I've been watching a few charts after I noticed my own progressed Sun conjuncting progressed Lilith which coincided with a year of complete weirdness. I also noticed, a long lost friend and I bumped into each other while she was having the same progression, and another friend also had it a year before. Both these people's lives seemed to be turned upside down during those years, both due to romantic entanglements. And mine too. I've lost touch with both these people so I cannot know what happened and what they got from it all. But I must add, during my own year of weirdness, it was a Lilith 'double whammy' with progressed Sun conjuncting progressed Lilith and transiting Lilith conjuncting natal Sun.
 
Last edited:

!4C

Well-known member
Looks like BML will be an integral part of the jupiter-saturn-neptune water grand trine this july 20th.

Mars-jupiter-BML will be conjunct my natal moon (chart ruler). Saturn will be conjunt my natal uranus.

Looking back on previous BML conjunctions to my natal moon, they were all positive times when I realized that risky changes to my life direction were paying off much better than I expected. During the last one in 2004, uranus was in neptune's current position, so I had both natal and transiting uranus trine my moon.

With saturn sitting on my natal uranus this time, maybe it will be my caution that proves to be the correct action.

Needless to say, BML appears to be neither good or bad, just a turning point indicator...a time of dramatic change. So in that sense it would be similar to the lunar nodes. :whistling:
 

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
The triple Mars/Jupiter/Lilith conjuction at 4/5 Cancer all head to oppose the Pluto and trine the Neptune and Saturn on and around 20th July also. Doesn't that make it a kite formation? I'm watching the effects of this, they will make a trine to my natal Pisces Moon. The Mars/Lilith/Jupiter (transiting in 7th house) trio opposed Pluto will t-square to my natal 9 Libra Pluto. I don't think it will be a dull summers day!

I have only ever watched conjunctions from black moon Lilith, just because another astrologer once suggested to me thats why they did, as it doesn't transmit light. I am open to all perspectives. Though I have found most strongly the effects of Lilith when in conjunction to natal spots, namely a few years ago Sun, then Mercury, Venus, Moon, Jupiter. Though, I also feel, the effects of Lilith, when in conjunction to other transiting planets, will add its vibration to those planets which may manifest then through aspects to natal planets.

Anyway, watching for that July configuration!
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Neptune Rising: Question for clarification: are you using what on astro.com "Lilith" is symbolized (in their charts) by the crescent moon on top of a cross? If so, then this is the "Lilith" I have been using and referring to in this (and other) threads.

Frisiangal: no, I am not referring to Waldemath-at least not according to the calculations @ astro.com: when selecting Waldemath there, the word "Walde" and its degree position comes up, which is seperate from both the oscillating lunar apogee position, which comes up as "osc.L", and from the Lilith that I have been referring to, which is selected from the big box under "additional objects-Lilith" and which comes up as the crescent moon-on-a-cross glyph: for example, in the 8:45 AM May 18, 1927 Bath Michigan school bombing chart (worst school attack in US history with 58 killed), crescent-moon-on cross Lilith ("my Lilith") falls @ 8Libra18, the oscillating Lunar apogee {"Black Moon"} as "oscil.L" falls @ 13Libra07, and Waldemath {"Walde"} falls @ 14Scorpio12. I will add, though, that certainly the oscillating lunar apogee point, and even Waldemath, are intriguing to me and I'll have to start looking at these points more, in the future. But, "my Lilith"-the one I have studied and applied, and which I consider as a kind of "mini-South Node"-is the point symbolized by the crescent-moon-on-a-cross figure.
 
Last edited:

Bina

Well-known member
Just to clarify once more:

Waldemath Lilith = Dark Moon Lilith

and the Lilith listed in the additional objects on astro.com (crescent moon-on-a-cross glyph) is the mean position of Black Moon Lilith (BML) or the lunar apogee.

:bandit::smile::bandit:
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
For those wishing to investigate the Lilith I have been using (crescent moon on a cross symbol), simply always use the Lilith entry in the big box "additional objects" on astro.com; to read about this Lilith (that I have been referring to) the books mentioned earlier (Ivy Goldstein Jacobson's "The Dark Moon Lilith in Astrology" and the Wilson-Ludlam book, "Lilith Insight") would be the reference sources for study.
 
Top