detriment and fall?

dranzer93

Banned
Can I get a source on that?

Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''

I would go and find you a source on it but I am so tired and cant think. I know that in my experience and through all the things I have read and passed by that fall was always the worst, a 70 year old astrologer who has been studying for over 30 years who I know called GreyBeard had written on one of my posts describing it as ruler being the king on his thrown, Exalt being a friend but doesnt rule, Detriment being unfriended and Fall being enemy and not allowed in as it goes against everything the planet wants to do. For example my Moon in Scorpio. Moon does not want to express in such a secretive and dark way, So it's not about it being the complete opposite element its about how the sign is equelly as strong but expresses in a way that goes against the planets nature and rules. Detriment is just not a friend, and it is uncomfortable but it does not go against the planets actual nature. It's just that the signs nature doesn't really work well in a planet that has a different meaning to the signs nature. Where as fall in some ways you could say uses the planet for evil as it is as strong but it is hated.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
dranzer93 said:
Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''

Ah, I see where we are having our disconnect. Typically, the sections go "Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term, and Face" clearly ordering out the dignities from the most dignifying to the least dignifying. In the next section it is ordered "Detriment, Fall, and Peregrine" mirroring the first section's order of greatest point of distress to least point of distress (not counting minor or accidental things of course).

Also, using this ordering idea completely disregards the sign relationship. Why is a planet's sign of detriment its sign of detriment? Because it's the sign opposite to one of the signs it rules. I don't think it takes much of a stretch to infer that if a planet is its "best" when in it's sign of domicile, it is then at its "worst" when it is in the sign opposite from it.
 

deepblue

New member
From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents
 
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may28gemini

Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does exalted Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is further strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline and will power comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I possessed strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like but that's probably because I have Mars opposite Uranus) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control).

As I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy, fat, and boring and into self-indulgence foods and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but because my Mars is detriment I cannot express those traits too? Do I even strive to be that way? On some levels yes, but on a larger scale, NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I'm sure Cap Mars can do that if they wanted to, but they're not really comfortable with a lot of dirty grunt work that Taurus Mars revel in. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame and we don't seem to express the negative traits that we're so unfairly deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered. Peel everything back and inspect what's underneath and you find that status and appearances don't quite work the way it's reputed to be. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work)? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT the really all of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), but it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I have strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control). But I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy and boring and all into food and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but am I that way? Do I even strive to be that way? NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame as we're suppose to be since we're deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered.

Certainly you're going to want to use considerations of bonification and maltreatment in any situation, I was hoping that would go without saying, but it is useful to remind people. I was mostly speaking about detriment and fall without regard to other mitigating factors.

If I may, I think the issue here is you're trying to compare aphorisms about the classical dignities with modern, psychological interpretations, and then you doubt them when they don't match up because you've just judged a fish by it's ability to climb a tree.
 

wca

Well-known member
I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.

actually all you'll have found by checking the list of famous Taurus Mars individuals is a list of famous Taurus Mars individuals. I know where you were trying to go with this but it's statistically insignificant.

anyhow, I think we're on the wrong track here:

Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects.

no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.

I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial.

again, not really. this almost indicates that there's not a philosophical principle underpinning traditional methodology. a planet can only be as strong as its placement, its relationship to its dispositor, etc. so while any planet can be in an unfortunate position, it's wrong to say that any planet any where could get turned upside down -- there has to be a detractor (like Venus being disposited by a Moon in Capricorn sq. Saturn).

Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality?

status indicates degree. so even if something "works," if the planets involved had been better placed, that something could have been great.
 
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may28gemini

I did not disagree as far as the root concept of why detriment and fallen exist. Taurus Mars will always be detriment because it's the opposite of dignified Scorpio Mars- that's just how it is. Scorpio Moon is fallen because Taurus Moon is exalted. Yes, I get all that.

As for aspects "only" measuring relative ease or lack thereof between the 2 planets- I think that's not true at all. I think aspects not only measure (dis)comfort levels between the planets, but shows the potential energies available no matter what positions. I don't think there's any certainty to say that if you compare exalted Cap Mars in the 10th house will beat Taurus Mars in the 10th. My argument isn't one that the detriment or fallen effects are dissipated, but with beneficial aspects, a good house placement, that helps lessen some of the negative effects.

I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?
 
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wca

Well-known member
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)

Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.

opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
wca said:
no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.

AHEM! Bonification/Maltreatment by engagement would like to say hello to you, sir!

may28gemini said:
I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?

While noble, the problem with this is we are all clearly coming from a myriad of different places in our traditions, techniques, and philosophies. It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.
 

Moog

Well-known member
opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.

I go with the Indian authorities on many matters regarding astrology. It's my opinion that we should look further than just the medieval western tradition in our research.
 
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may28gemini

I don't think disagreements leads to no one learning anything and it's a good thing that there isn't 1 kind of astrology because that means there wouldn't be any differences in opinions and everyone would have to think, do, practice the same. Although it's stable to have 1 kind of astrology and easier to communicate about it, I think that's suffocating and limiting. I like reading what other people say, even if I don't address to everyone's comments but I do learn from others and I'd like to think some enjoy my analyses too.

I'm not an astrologer nor strive to be one, and although I actually have a good foundation on traditional astrology, I take note of traditional astrology as a point of reference but not like it's the be all to end all. Theory is all well and good, but how is that theory when it comes into play? Yes, you're right. I do come from more of a psychological astrology standpoint and I like studying layers. Repeating what has long been "accepted" is so unsatisfying for me. Call it my Mercury trine Pluto. Call it my Scorpio flavored Mars position. Maybe my Scorpio Uranus is the culprit. It doesn't matter, I just think there's more than what's been repeated in texts over and over again.

Astrology has come from a lot of angles and that's why I think it's fun (but probably maddening for a lot of people because they want definite answers). I really do like all the differences that gets presented. I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously accepted. That's not how something is learned or improved upon. I think that's why people should be freely able to express their viewpoints from various astrological standpoints, even if arguments results but at least there's some freedom to express what one thinks. Maybe some don't think anything needs to be improved upon but I do, so what I say, I say with a purpose in mind. I wasn't trying to be noble or lofty, but I thank you for the compliment all the same.
 
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wca

Well-known member
I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously been accepted.

I hope I didn't make you feel that way! it's so easy to be assertive behind a computer screen.

anyway, all viewpoints are welcome, and indeed solicited! I always find they are best received when actual examples are presented of how the long-standing framework somehow falls short.
 
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may28gemini

Hahaha I wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular when I wrote that. Despite having a Pisces Moon, I'm NOT that sensitive!

What I was saying is more general. I've seen people on the forum shy away from further explaining their original observations due to some pressure that if they don't hold consensus, they wouldn't be accepted. There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.
 

Moog

Well-known member
It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.

I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.
 

Moog

Well-known member
There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.

I doubt they were banned due to a lack of concensus holding, it's more likely they were also unorthodox in their manners, and how they hold to forum rules.
 

Moog

Well-known member
I think original ideas in astrology are fine, as long as they are not presented as coming from tradition when they don't.
 
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may28gemini

Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think banning is the appropriate way to treat those on a forum who wish to express their views. That only results in very few people coming around and participating.
 

Moog

Well-known member
Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think that's just for banning.

I've never known anyone be thrown out for having an original notion. In their manner of asserting them; sure

A lot of people do get super pissed off when everyone doesn't suddenly take their ideas to heart.
 
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