Self hating thoughts rising

katydid said:

My niece has Gemini Moon in the first, Gemini rising. And she is very vocal about her self critical thoughts. But it might be from her Mercury/Venus in Virgo squaring her Moon?

Click to expand...

The square might be a factor in her having self critical thoughts, and maybe in what kind of self critical thoughts she has. But that she's so vocal about them sounds very, very Gemini to me. Other rising signs, particularly the ones known for quietness and inwardness, might keep their self hating thoughts entirely to themselves, so that they could be sitting there stewing in self hatred and no one besides them would have any idea.

katydid said:

I know some Gemini Ascendants who are very self critical and have problems with negative thoughts about themselves.

One is a Gemini with Gem rising, sun in the 12th.

One is an Aries, sun in the 11th, Gemini rising, Mercury in Aries combust Sun.

My niece has Gemini Moon in the first, Gemini rising. And she is very vocal about her self critical thoughts. But it might be from her Mercury/Venus in Virgo squaring her Moon?

Click to expand...

Come to think, I know several Aries Suns (Charts unknown) who are self-critical, but not self-hating. Maybe they set the bar very high for themselves.

Osamenor said:

The square might be a factor in her having self critical thoughts, and maybe in what kind of self critical thoughts she has. But that she's so vocal about them sounds very, very Gemini to me. Other rising signs, particularly the ones known for quietness and inwardness, might keep their self hating thoughts entirely to themselves, so that they could be sitting there stewing in self hatred and no one besides them would have any idea.

Click to expand...

Yes, but interestingly, she is not that emotional about the self critical thoughts she vocalizes. It is very Gemini.

For a recent example, she helped me a lot when I was planning the rehearsal party for my sons wedding. There were a lot of the brides family coming from out of town, so it took a lot of planning and communication with people.

My niece offered to help because she is really good at that kind of thing. She used to be a travel agent and likes those kinds of details and does event planning.

But we had a few glitches and she messed up a couple small things, no big deal. But I was surprised by the way she kept speaking about it at the dinner--not just a quick apology but she was kind of putting herself down, saying she was stupid for not double checking and for misreading something, and she repeatedly said she should not be so ditzy. But she kept saying this to the people from the brides family that she just met.

And she was not sad or upset or emotional---just saying it as fact. lol " Sometimes I am so stupid, what a ditz..pass the bread please, thanks..."

sadge said:

. That Saturn will be able to say something of importance about that 7H while that Jupiter is sucking on a lollipop and signing contracts like its going out of style. (Okay, so my analogies can be a bit colorful, but you get my drift....)


S.

Click to expand...

So, you've never seen someone who's life was pretty much wrecked by, say, an out-of-sect angular Jupiter? I have. A few times. I've got an out-of-sect angular Jupiter and it's taught me quite a bit. Didn't wreck my life.

Like everything else in a chart....it depends.

I get that you're trying to make an analogy, but what you're saying is woefully too simple.

Try to look at it this way: Jupiter will try to bring good, because that's its nature. If it's in really bad shape, the 'good' it brings might actually be bad. Saturn will always bring harm, because that's its nature. What you need to determine is if it will bring the most harm to the querent, or if it represents the harm that the querent does, and whether the harm is worth it, and how, perhaps to mitigate it. I can think of a few 7th house Saturn scenarios, and some of them - it's going to be up to the person to judge. Remember, Saturn may bring wisdom sometimes, but often, Saturn lies.

I find "harm" to be too concrete a word to use in a field as nebulous and unverified as astrology.

Oddity said:

So, you've never seen someone who's life was pretty much wrecked by, say, an out-of-sect angular Jupiter? I have. A few times. I've got an out-of-sect angular Jupiter and it's taught me quite a bit. Didn't wreck my life.

Like everything else in a chart....it depends.

I get that you're trying to make an analogy, but what you're saying is woefully too simple.

Try to look at it this way: Jupiter will try to bring good, because that's its nature. If it's in really bad shape, the 'good' it brings might actually be bad. Saturn will always bring harm, because that's its nature. What you need to determine is if it will bring the most harm to the querent, or if it represents the harm that the querent does, and whether the harm is worth it, and how, perhaps to mitigate it. I can think of a few 7th house Saturn scenarios, and some of them - it's going to be up to the person to judge. Remember, Saturn may bring wisdom sometimes, but often, Saturn lies.

Click to expand...

Odds....go back and read what you just stated. It's the same thing I stated only in different packaging. Identify. Mitigate. Uncover the lies and unlock the power. And yes, of course it all depends.

Reminder: The question in this thread was about "self-hating" thoughts.

I am not getting into an argument about the differences between a traditional and modern approach. They are fundamentally different takes on a natal chart. I focus on the depth psychology that underlies a chart and the causes that may be uncovered within it. So if you're trying to justify my perspective within the framework that YOU know to be true, then you are bound to disagree with me. It's as simple as that.

graay ghost said:

I find "harm" to be too concrete a word to use in a field as nebulous and unverified as astrology.

Click to expand...

How about, "Signify nearly insurmountable problems"? Or, "Signify severely challenging situations"?

david starling said:

How about, "Signify nearly insurmountable problems"? Or, "Signify severely challenging situations"?

Click to expand...

Awww. There's my little NN superstar, stepping in with perfect timing as always.

Don't forget: we were supposed to eat lunch together at the "Others" table.....

sadge said:

Awww. There's my little NN superstar, stepping in with perfect timing as always.

Don't forget: we were supposed to eat lunch together at the "Others" table.....

Click to expand...

Let's up the stakes (as implied by Osamenor). If you're going to bring psychological depth into it, the Transits during the "formative years", 1 to 6, come into play. They would set up behavioral patterns that should be examined and possibly modified.

david starling said:

Let's up the stakes (as implied by Osamenor). If you're going to bring psychological depth into it, the Transits during the "formative years", 1 to 6, come into play. They would set up behavioral patterns that should be examined and possibly modified.

Click to expand...

So let's hear it, VIP. Your comment seems pretty self-explanatory to me, to the point that more is not needed unless someone completely lacks any awareness of depth psychology and human development (which I know is not the case for you). But you seem to be trying to bait me into doing all the talking here. I've observed that you have some pretty good ideas too so I'm interested in hearing how you synthesize all this information as well.

sadge said:

So let's hear it, VIP. Your comment seems pretty self-explanatory to me, to the point that more is not needed unless someone completely lacks any awareness of depth psychology and human development (which I know is not the case for you). But you seem to be trying to bait me into doing all the talking here. I've observed that you have some pretty good ideas too so I'm interested in hearing how you synthesize all this information as well.

Click to expand...

It's a new idea to me. It's extremely radical, because the "snapshot" Natal-chart theory is dominant. I brought it up because you're a motivational type of Astrologer. I'm planning on checking out my first 6 years before I look at anyone else's. Fortunately, I have a pretty good recollection of my childhood. It's really about recognizing self-sabotaging patterns that began in the early years, in order to, as you say, "mitigate" them.

I'm surprised at the people here saying "cancer is a weird sign". IMO Cancer is a great sign if one can control their 'self-pity' and neediness. It takes a while for one to notice the Notoriety of the negatives of the Sun whichever sign it may be. However, the fact that Cancer is a Cardinal hence Emotional makes life a tad bit difficult.
However, self-loathing is common simply because of the increasing 'standards' we are being provided by social media. We all fall inferior for one reason or another.

Having said that, astrologically as people have commented, there are certain signs more liable to fall in depression-water mainly. That is where Cancer and Pisces end up with the worst. I have both in excess and can vouch for the misery they produce.

Everyone has all the signs and they likely suffer in the houses/circumstances that have afflicted planets especially Sun/moon/Mars. But any planet wired wrongly can produce a bad outcome. The emotional processing usually falls back on the Moon to assimilate and Sun to accept the challenges.

Psychologically, it would be the parental influences if the loathing had been standing for a long time. There could be family issues, personal losses (e.g divorce) which could leave marks for a long time.

I go by with Saturn, Capricorn, and hard aspects like Square and Opposition. That also seems like common knowledge among us astrology lovers and students anyway. But with the signs? I think every single sign is capable of expressing those negative energies such as self-hating, self-criticism, and etc. Maybe the reason why some people seem to pick certain signs as more prone to depression or low self-esteem is because of the nature of the signs. Like water signs, for example. Emotional, receptive, flowing in their own ways, but also deep and intense.

Pisces, from what I've observed from other people in my life, seem to be the most open out of all the three. Most forgiving, most naive, most spiritual, most "watery", most elusive, most mysterious (yep, I think Pisces beats Scorpio in this one) and also the most sacrificing. IMO, I think Pisces is at the top of my list of which signs are prone to such. Next would be Scorpio, then Cancer. Cancer is a great sign, actually. It's a Cardinal sign, like Capricorn. Cancer can definitely combat these negative energies but that depends on the signature of the natal chart too. The softness of Cancer is very admirable IMO, and like its opposite sign, they definitely have some strong qualities but its more hidden.

The thing about Scorpio is that this sign will always express itself in EXTREMES. They can either be really up there, like the Phoenix emerging from a powerful transformation, or they could reaaalllyy down there, at the very end of a dark pit, and since this sign naturally embodies the darker themes of life, they can stay down there for eternity. So in comparison to Cancer, Scorpio has more...er, potential or more prone to those negative expressions. At some point, they can also be stronger, like incredibly strong. Because of the transformation that the planetary ruler of Scorpio, Pluto, can give to the chart holder. I'm referring to the good kind of transformation. I find this really amazing.

But Pisces, oh dear. IMO, Pisces people are the ones who look and seem like they can be taken advantage of. They're even more receptive to pain and suffering, and Neptune rules this sign. 12th house rules this planet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 12th house about the subconscious? About dissolving and fogging whatever it is that's in your 12th house? Like Sun in 12th house. Sun is about your ego. Won't that mean having almost no ego? Or that your ego is too foggy to be seen or discovered with clarity? For instance, i have Neptune in the 1st house. My self-identity has always been vague and confusing. Some people have told me this planetary placement makes me seem like a chameleon. Because I'm adapting so many expressions and idenitites throughout my life, I was never certain of who I was and what I want. Other people too, always have different views of me, but they never really saw who I am deep down.

So with that in mind, I think that could contribute a lot. I have a friend who has Moon-Venus in Pisces, exactly conjunct. Extremely forgiving, open and sacrificing. He actually drowns himself in his sorrows, and he actually loves it (even though he denies it). Like, he seems to be unconditionally loving his friends and love interests that he doesn't keep them with him, allows them to hurt him, very empathic to other people's emotional hurts, and also... depressed. He noticed this (and sometimes, he doesn't) and he hates himself for it. He wishes he had guts to push people out of his life and improve his self-esteem for the better, but he's too... kind. :/

And theeen, put in some Saturn. Haha.

I agree with Blackempress. Psychologically, the angular points of the chart are very important for the psyche of the hart holder. I personally emphasize the 4th house and 10th house axis. I have Saturn down there in my 4th house. Saturn is opposite my Sun-Venus, in which they are up there on the 10th house. I have T-squares that involve those two houses with my 1st house planets. I'm carrying a lot of inner conflict that came from my early experiences/childhood, and my parents were like the starring roles of those hahaha. As a result, having a weak inner foundation made me crave for acknowledgement and recognition from other people. But since people have put me down on this too, it fueled my frustration, and voila! Self-hatred filled my mind and heart haha.

I'm also aware that people who have harsh aspects to Saturn to their personal planets can develop that "I'm not good enough" complex, and this also fuels their self-hatred all the more. I have friends like this, and they mirror me too. And maybe its not just the Saturn aspects though. I think we should all look at the chart as a whole to see many possible influences that contribute to this.