Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Neptune Rising

Well-known member
mercury101 said:
My ascendant is not subjective. It's a scientific fact. It's also a scientific fact that I am an astrologer. Chiron was an astrologer. Chiron rules Virgo. Which rules analyzing facts and figures.

Speaking of which, Frank still has not posted any chart, horary or otherwise to back up his claims.

And my chart is my business, Im not showing it to complete strangers.
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Okaaay..... so the statement you have made is one experience. I do believe you need, as Frank says, a criteria of more than one to make any sort of experimental conclusion. At least, that was what I learned during my psychology studies.

Also, if one does make a claim, it is helpful to back it up with objective research, which goes beyond and detaches from that initial personal view. Research which comes from a broad sweep of society (more than one person).

If you are using your chart, to prove a claim that Chiron is the ruler of Virgo, then it makes sense to display your chart. Otherwise, you cannot state this as proof. Well, you can state it as proof but it becomes completely subjective and therefore, a bit hard to take on board. I am not asking you to display your chart, just making a statement of what one uses to back up theories.
 
M

mercury101

Banned
Frank said:
And what do you want me to show you in that one chart?
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If you can't show at least ONE chart with Mercury as a better ruler of Virgo than Chiron, then this conversation is over, Frank.

Im sure Im not the only Virgo or Virgo ascendant here, maybe we can start by hearing from the horse's mouth. All else is mere rhetoric and conjecture.

Again, without having to show my chart, I am a Virgo Ascendant, with Virgo ruling my 2nd house of finances, and with its ruler, Chiron in my 10th house of career. Chiron was an astrologer. I am a professional astrologer, and I make money from analyzing other's chart. My chart clearly shows Chiron is a better fit than Mercury, and my one chart is more evidence than Frank and any others have here.
 
N

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
mercury101 said:
My chart clearly shows Chiron is a better fit than Mercury, and my one chart is more evidence than Frank and any others have here.
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Again, I am confused... You state that you chart clearly "shows" that Chiron is a better fit... we cannot see you "showing" anything, there is nothing "shown" here, no chart, just words.

Also, I believe that initial claim was that Chiron is the ruler of Virgo. I think that is what needs to be evidenced, not the other way round.
 
M

mercury101

Banned
Neptune Rising said:
Okaaay..... so the statement you have made is one experience. I do believe you need, as Frank says, a criteria of more than one to make any sort of experimental conclusion. At least, that was what I learned during my psychology studies.

Also, if one does make a claim, it is helpful to back it up with objective research, which goes beyond and detaches from that initial personal view. Research which comes from a broad sweep of society (more than one person).

If you are using your chart, to prove a claim that Chiron is the ruler of Virgo, then it makes sense to display your chart. Otherwise, you cannot state this as proof. Well, you can state it as proof but it becomes completely subjective and therefore, a bit hard to take on board. I am not asking you to display your chart, just making a statement of what one uses to back up theories.
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Again, my one chart, and life experience is much much more than you or Frank have shown. You have shown zero evidence backing up your claim, and I have done nothing but bring evidence.

I am an astrologer. I have read many charts, professionally. I use Chiron as ruler of Virgo. And it works better than Mercury.
 
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M

mercury101

Banned
Neptune Rising said:
Again, I am confused... You state that you chart clearly "shows" that Chiron is a better fit... we cannot see you "showing" anything, there is nothing "shown" here, no chart, just words.

Also, I believe that initial claim was that Chiron is the ruler of Virgo. I think that is what needs to be evidenced, not the other way round.
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Nope, I have posted several valid points, and have shown a thorough knowledge of this topic in several posts here. Go back, re-read them. And re-read where I said that I will not show complete strangers my chart. I've used logic and the science of astrology, and the houses to back up my point, in almost a dozen posts here.

At this point, it is on you and the other nay-sayers to prove me wrong, with FACTS. VERIFIABLE FACTS. I didnt come to hear about anybody's resume. For any logical, rational, critically thinking person, I've said more than enough to prove my point, and you haven't. Good day.
 
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N

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
mercury101 said:
Again, my one chart, and life EXPERIENCE is much much more than you or Frank have shown. You have shown ZERO evidence backing up your claim, and I have done nothing but bring evidence.

I am an astrologer. I have read many charts, professionally. I use Chiron as ruler of Virgo. And it works better than Mercury. Take it or leave it.
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You do keep saying that you are an astrologer. You are on an astrology forum, amongst alot of other astrologers. I am not sure what this would have to do with proving that Chiron is the ruler of Virgo. Surely, as you say, you are an astrologer, you realise the value of being somewhat objective in your arguments? You can use whatever you like as ruler of whatever you like. It holds no proof though. I can use Valentine as the ruler of Aries, if I liked. It doesn't mean there will be any accuracy in my work.

And as much as this has been a delightful procrastination to me doing my tax accounts, I must get on now.
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
mercury101 said:
If you can't show at least ONE chart with Mercury as a better ruler of Virgo than Chiron, then this conversation is over, Frank.

Im sure Im not the only Virgo or Virgo ascendant here, maybe we can start by hearing from the horse's mouth. All else is mere rhetoric and conjecture.

Again, without having to show my chart, I am a Virgo Ascendant, with Virgo ruling my 2nd house of finances, and with its ruler, Chiron in my 10th house of career. Chiron was an astrologer. I am a professional astrologer, and I make money from analyzing other's chart. My chart clearly shows Chiron is a better fit than Mercury, and my one chart is more evidence than Frank and any others have here.
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Just out of curiosity, is it your natal ASC that is in Virgo, or your progressed?

Also, since I'm still learning, Venus is a lover, so if I had ASC in Libra and Venus in 10th, does that make me a professional lover? It's the same logic, right?
 
Frank

Frank

Well-known member
Here is a chart with Virgo rising:

picture.php


Is he an astrologer? No, with Mercury conjunct Mars in Aquarius (which is ruled by Saturn on the Ascendant) he is a boxer. A well known boxer. He doesn't stay at home and philosophize (as a Chiron in Sagittarius on the 4th House cusp might denote). He beats people up and avoids having other people beat him up.

Q.E.D.
 
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Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Caro said:
I think Vulcan for virgo.

but this is ruled by Taurus! (ya what)
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Hey, where IS Vulcan, anyway?

This Virgo Sun doesn't like the idea of being ruled by a ghost.... I much prefer Mercury to the many other candidates being bandied about. At least I (more or less) know where I stand with Mercury.
 
Caro

Caro

Well-known member
orbit is similar to mercury. (it is now in gemini!!)

extract which I found interesting.

Vulcan is the ruler of Virgo. Vulcan helps people create and fashion all sorts of things. On
the esoteric level, (which is the astrology of the soul transmitted by a Tibetan Master to Alice
Bailey many years ago), Vulcan is the ruler of Taurus, again another earth sign. A definite
orbit cannot be established yet; however for many reasons the orbit given is valid. An English
esotericist has proposed that Vulcan is always 3º from Mercury on the side of the Sun. Solar
Fire has the option of calculating either method: D. Baker’s method or the one most used,
which is by L.H.Weston. The only real way is to look at the hard aspect transits​
(conjunctions, squares or oppositions) of Vulcan. The orbit of Vulcan is about 23 days.

this is from website : azastrologers/org/articles/reyervulcan.pdf

the idea just popped into my head. I was thinking Spock and a certain person(a virgo i know).


 
T

theM

Well-known member
waybread said:
I thought Ceres was a good fit with Virgo from a mythological perspective, as both have ancient agricultural connotations (cf. contellation Virgo's stars Spica and Vindemiatrix) and a kind of law-giving or rule-minded function. Manilius, the classical astrology author, said that Ceres ruled Virgo, although of course, he referred to a goddess, not to a planetoid/asteroid.

I don't see mythological Chiron functioning in this way. Chiron was a male centaur who became seriously injured and grew in wisdom over his experience, not the "maiden" associated with Virgo. Virgo is a healer but she is also symbolized as a winged woman. If anything, I think Chiron could be the modern ruler of Sagittarius; or the 13th zodiacal constellation Ophiuchus (another healer), if astrologers ever welcome him into the zodiac.
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Perfect text from waybread.
Oh,it's super- I don't need to explain it. :wink:

For me Ceres is the ruler of Virgo and Eris of Libra.

Besides I think that there are plenty of asteroids (centaurs) like Chiron.
Like waybread said- the closest connection that Chiron could have would be Ophiuchus but since Astrology is a well-defined,symmetrical,perfect system of 12 zodiac signs,no other zodiac sign is needed or would fit in.

So that's it for me. :smile:

You can reed my opinion about Eris in the Eris thread.
 
J

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
I recall looking at an ephemeris for Eris, and it seems to spend the least amount of time in Libra, and the most in Aries. So yes, Libra may be its sign 'home'. I've known a couple of Libra lawyers, and Eris fits them better than Venus does.

Ceres' orbit ... I'm not sure. It has a lot of retrograde time.

But it's true, Ceres (Demeter in Greek myth) seems to fit Virgo. She is the harvest goddess in Rome, and Virgo is usually depicted with a sheaf of grain, so there's definitely a harvest connection. Ceres was a "mother goddess"/fertility goddess in more ancient times. She is still associated with childbirth. Demeter's daughter Persephone was the young maiden abducted by Hades; Persephone is associated with spring, new shoots of grain and other vegetation, so is closely linked to her mother's harvest theme. In the mother/daughter relationship, there's an element of transition from girl to woman, unmarried 'maiden' to wife and mother.

It strikes me that Virgo is the only mutable sign that doesn't have an overtly dual presentation: Gemini, twins; Sag, half horse, half human; Pisces, two fishes. Maybe for Virgo, it's mother and daughter?

Asteroid Ceres is part of a belt of objects that includes Vesta, Pallas and Hygeia, all of which could represent different symbolic sides of Virgo. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the whole asteroid belt rules Virgo, but it's a semi-interesting thought.

Whatever. At least Ceres exists... she's not a ghost like Vulcan. (Planet Vulcan got blown up in the last Star Trek movie, anyway.) But I suppose there is something Virgo-like about Mr Spock... "Nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans."
 
Kaiousei no Senshi

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
It strikes me that Virgo is the only mutable sign that doesn't have an overtly dual presentation: Gemini, twins; Sag, half horse, half human; Pisces, two fishes. Maybe for Virgo, it's mother and daughter?
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Virgo is typically depicted as a woman with wings.

I recall looking at an ephemeris for Eris, and it seems to spend the least amount of time in Libra, and the most in Aries. So yes, Libra may be its sign 'home'. I've known a couple of Libra lawyers, and Eris fits them better than Venus does.
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This is kind of interesting, a long time ago, I thought something similar about planetary rulerships, that there might be some kind of astronomical correspondence. I also thought about the sign that the planet moved the quickest through. I thought it made sense because it showed the planet to be most unimpeded. Pluto moves quickest through Scorpio, so I thought I was on to something, but then I discovered that Saturn moves quickest through Scorpio too. :/
 
vlsmercury7

vlsmercury7

Well-known member
Judy_AzVirgo said:
I recall looking at an ephemeris for Eris, and it seems to spend the least amount of time in Libra, and the most in Aries. So yes, Libra may be its sign 'home'. I've known a couple of Libra lawyers, and Eris fits them better than Venus does.

Ceres' orbit ... I'm not sure. It has a lot of retrograde time.

But it's true, Ceres (Demeter in Greek myth) seems to fit Virgo. She is the harvest goddess in Rome, and Virgo is usually depicted with a sheaf of grain, so there's definitely a harvest connection. Ceres was a "mother goddess"/fertility goddess in more ancient times. She is still associated with childbirth. Demeter's daughter Persephone was the young maiden abducted by Hades; Persephone is associated with spring, new shoots of grain and other vegetation, so is closely linked to her mother's harvest theme. In the mother/daughter relationship, there's an element of transition from girl to woman, unmarried 'maiden' to wife and mother.

It strikes me that Virgo is the only mutable sign that doesn't have an overtly dual presentation: Gemini, twins; Sag, half horse, half human; Pisces, two fishes. Maybe for Virgo, it's mother and daughter?

Asteroid Ceres is part of a belt of objects that includes Vesta, Pallas and Hygeia, all of which could represent different symbolic sides of Virgo. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the whole asteroid belt rules Virgo, but it's a semi-interesting thought.

Whatever. At least Ceres exists... she's not a ghost like Vulcan. (Planet Vulcan got blown up in the last Star Trek movie, anyway.) But I suppose there is something Virgo-like about Mr Spock... "Nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans."
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You know, Judy, I think you might be on to something here. I was doing a birthchart report for a friend of mine who is a Virgo. I mentioned that one side of Virgo is like a maiden; pure, refined and whole, but also the other side of the Virgo persona is like that of an earthy, caring and protective mother with deep knowledge of the Earth and of healing.

Interestingly, I also came across an article which explains that the celestial virgin was Astraea or Astraia, the "star-maiden". http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Astraia.html

I personally feel there is more to Virgo than meets the eye and I find the sign intriguing.
 
J

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Virgo is typically depicted as a woman with wings.
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Which would be an 'angel', I guess -- or Astraea, as vlsmercury pointed out. Not specifically a human female who also has heavenly qualities. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that as a duality in the same way as the other mutables' symbols.


Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I also thought about the sign that the planet moved the quickest through. I thought it made sense because it showed the planet to be most unimpeded. Pluto moves quickest through Scorpio, so I thought I was on to something, but then I discovered that Saturn moves quickest through Scorpio too. :/
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I'm sure you're right... it's probably just a Pluto orbital thing. I've just been too lazy to check dates for other planets. In fact, I didn't know Saturn moves so fast through Scorpio. Seems odd.
 
Kaiousei no Senshi

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Which would be an 'angel', I guess -- or Astraea, as vlsmercury pointed out. Not specifically a human female who also has heavenly qualities. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that as a duality in the same way as the other mutables' symbols.
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A half woman-half bird is less dualistic than a half man-half horse?
 
Kaiousei no Senshi

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Let me restate (why, I don't know... it's a silly tangent): a winged figure is not a HUMAN figure, so it's not a woman, and it's not half-anything. It's an angel.
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That seems to be personal opinion. Since Virgo was developed and depicted as a winged woman well before female angels were ever thought to be an actual thing, it seems more likely that she was indeed supposed to be half woman-half bird. Especially when you consider that this wasn't occurring in Christian nations where the concept of angels as we think of them today was unheard of as well. You can see this most plainly in this vase art which is depicting Astraea who the Greeks based on the constellation Virgo. It's dated 350-340BC.

My point being that saying Virgo is supposed to be an angel is a historical anachronism.
 
J

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
vlsmercury7 said:
You know, Judy, I think you might be on to something here. I was doing a birthchart report for a friend of mine who is a Virgo. I mentioned that one side of Virgo is like a maiden; pure, refined and whole, but also the other side of the Virgo persona is like that of an earthy, caring and protective mother with deep knowledge of the Earth and of healing.
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I've used this in readings, too.
 
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