The Twelfth House

MSO

Well-known member
to say houses move backwards is to suggest the houses are moving, lol.. it is the earth that is moving on it's axis.. the houses are a division of space along the ecliptic as perceived from earth.. either the houses are moving or the earth is moving.. take yer pick..

Now you're arguing semantics. Planets move backwards through the houses and forwards through the signs.

We're deviating from the point of this thread, which is discussion of the 12th House.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Most of the commonly used quadrant house systems (not all) are actually divisions of the equator, with the "results" of the division expressed in celestial longitude, that is, along the ecliptic. But the divisions are actually equatorial and then projected onto the ecliptic.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
"Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there." -- Bruce Lee
 

Carris

Well-known member
My aunt has a stellium of four planets in the 12th - and is very happy with her marriage, kids and life. The only 12th effect is that she is very engaged with her community and is very service oriented. Also she left her homeland after marriage and immigrated to a foreign country far away from her birth place. She has never faced any imprisonment, loss or sorrow. Its just that she lost her very loving father when she was just 23 - but that was more than made up by the rest of her very loving caring mother and siblings.
I really cannot find a negative aspect to the 12th house. But then I don't see the need for solitude as a negative thing - I am a loner and I do need time alone in order to function.

Like I've written in my previous posts - Spirituality is the MOST important thing in life - its why we are here on earth. The 12th does us a big favor by pointing us towards spirituality - so that we can progress towards freedom from the cycle of karma and reincarnation. Do you really want to keep endlessly reincarnating on earth? Read "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss". We cannot stop reincarnating until we have learnt all our spiritual lessons. Unfortunately books such as this are not widely known and this knowledge is hidden from us - that is why we suffer in the 12th - we seek knowledge but it is not to be found. On top of that, the religions teach us all sorts of nonsense - make us feel guilty and fearful - that's why people get depressed and end up in hospitals and institutions.

As more true real spiritual knowledge has become available - that we souls/spirits are eternal - people become more comfortable with spirituality and the 12th.

My saturn is in gemini 15*24' and ascendent is cancer 5*52' - so its definitely in the 12th house - where it had just risen in the east as I was born (the sun was setting in the west just 3*03' above the descendent) - the tough taskmaster telling me that I'd better turn towards spirituality in this lifetime and that I actually have no choice because he won't allow me to do anything else except concentrate on spirituality. My saturn is also exactly opposite my venus - a very clear sign that I'm not supposed to wantonly indulge in worldly materialistic superficial pursuits in this lifetime - but to find a happy balance.
 
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RaptInReverie

Well-known member
I'm not locked into any one approach or method, Greybeard.

"I was more independent than any farmer in Concord, for I was not anchored to a house or farm, but could follow the bent of my genius, which is a very crooked one, every moment."


Henry David Thoreau
 
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MSO

Well-known member
My aunt has a stellium of four planets in the 12th - and is very happy with her marriage, kids and life. The only 12th effect is that she is very engaged with her community and is very service oriented. Also she left her homeland after marriage and immigrated to a foreign country far away from her birth place. She has never faced any imprisonment, loss or sorrow. Its just that she lost her very loving father when she was just 23 - but that was more than made up by the rest of her very loving caring mother and siblings.
I really cannot find a negative aspect to the 12th house. But then I don't see the need for solitude as a negative thing - I am a loner and I do need time alone in order to function.

Like I've written in my previous posts - Spirituality is the MOST important thing in life - its why we are here on earth. The 12th does us a big favor by pointing us towards spirituality - so that we can progress towards freedom from the cycle of karma and reincarnation. Do you really want to keep endlessly reincarnating on earth? Read "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss". We cannot stop reincarnating until we have learnt all our spiritual lessons. Unfortunately books such as this are not widely known and this knowledge is hidden from us - that is why we suffer in the 12th - we seek knowledge but it is not to be found. On top of that, the religions teach us all sorts of nonsense - make us feel guilty and fearful - that's why people get depressed and end up in hospitals and institutions.

As more true real spiritual knowledge has become available - that we souls/spirits are eternal - people become more comfortable with spirituality and the 12th.

My saturn is in gemini 15*24' and ascendent is cancer 5*52' - so its definitely in the 12th house - where it had just risen in the east as I was born (the sun was setting in the west just 3*03' above the descendent) - the tough taskmaster telling me that I'd better turn towards spirituality in this lifetime and that I actually have no choice because he won't allow me to do anything else except concentrate on spirituality. My saturn is also exactly opposite my venus - a very clear sign that I'm not supposed to wantonly indulge in worldly materialistic superficial pursuits in this lifetime - but to find a happy balance.

You're biased. Your input, although.... thoughtful, I guess, is pointless. Spirituality is only important to people who are obsessed with it. It's just one point of view among many.

For example, some people would say love is the most important part of life. What's the point of building heaping piles of good karma and kindness if you love no one, and aren't loved in return?

Or another viewpoint; that you're on earth to learn a lesson, and focusing on other-worldly affairs negates the purpose for your existence here.

Spirituality is not the most important thing to life. And the 12th House is not a house of spirituality. If both were true, there would be an extremely heavy focus on the 12th House in all forms of astrology. In truth, planets in the 12th House are looked upon as being in a mild debility.

Anyways, your assumptions that the 12th House is in fact spirituality is based on A=B=C mentality. Although it sounds pretty straight forward, it's wrong. I'm happy to see that there is a growing surge of people realizing that the houses do not equate to the signs, at least not as they see it right now.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
MSO, do you have any planets in the 12th house? I'm thinking you don't... Possibly after your Saturn return the topic of spirituality may interest you more. Especially after transiting Saturn conjuncts your natal Neptune...

Anyhow, I also believe that Yods involving Saturn as an apex tend to be spiritual in nature regardless where it's posited. I think an apex in the 12th can enhance this nature.

I think the OP is merely suggesting that to him, spirituality is the most important element in his life. He may be suggesting that spirituality is the most important element in life, period, and that people merely have not awakened to this aspect, yet. However, as we know, people have their own beliefs about what life is all about and the good thing is that to most people here on this board we are in locations that offer freedom in what we want to believe.

Carris, maybe you'd care to post a chart? What planets make up your Yod?
 
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Carris

Well-known member
Thanks StillOne

Yes thats what I'm saying - that a prominent 12th means the need to focus on spirituality in this lifetime. Probably they have spent many lifetimes focussing on every other aspect of life and have avoided spirituality, love and compassion in themselves. And we cannot ascend to a higher consciousness unless we develop spiritually. My yod is saturn apex in 12th with moon in 5th and jupiter in 7th.

MSO

Why are planets in 12th looked upon as being in debility? I don't see it happening in real life. I've seen many charts with prominent 12th houses - but I haven't seen a single instance of the negativity that is ascribed to it.

Maybe in the dark ages, a person searching for the truth about spirituality was sent to prison or mental institutions by Christianity - so it could have been a negative thing then. But not now. If someone gives up a well-paying job to pursue their spiritual interests - I guess you would call it typical "self-undoing" and "self-destructive" behavior of the 12th - but your view would be wrong.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Carris, I would modify your take on the 12th house just slightly, to suggest that if someone has the sun in the 12th or a loaded 12th house, life probably works best if they develop an altruistic purpose. This is especially the case if s/he has a tenanted 6th house (of service) as well.

Not everyone is cut out to be spiritual, mystical, or religious. They just don't have it in them. I have several family members like this. On the other hand, they are committed to living an ethical life. For such individuals, commiting to a cause or group of people provides that sense of altruism, and is a constructive use of this "house of self-undoing." The ego gets out of the way.
 

MSO

Well-known member
Thanks StillOne

Yes thats what I'm saying - that a prominent 12th means the need to focus on spirituality in this lifetime. Probably they have spent many lifetimes focussing on every other aspect of life and have avoided spirituality, love and compassion in themselves. And we cannot ascend to a higher consciousness unless we develop spiritually. My yod is saturn apex in 12th with moon in 5th and jupiter in 7th.

MSO

Why are planets in 12th looked upon as being in debility? I don't see it happening in real life. I've seen many charts with prominent 12th houses - but I haven't seen a single instance of the negativity that is ascribed to it.

Maybe in the dark ages, a person searching for the truth about spirituality was sent to prison or mental institutions by Christianity - so it could have been a negative thing then. But not now. If someone gives up a well-paying job to pursue their spiritual interests - I guess you would call it typical "self-undoing" and "self-destructive" behavior of the 12th - but your view would be wrong.

Planets in the 12th are looked at as being in debility because they don't aspect the ascendant. The same is true for the 2nd, 6th, and 8th houses.

During the dark ages if you weren't a devout Christian people felt as if there was something wrong with you. You weren't sent to prison or mental institutions (mostly because they didn't exist) if you spent all day praying. People really didn't have much to do but be spiritual.

I know you probably feel as if you're in some super important time when spirituality is making this huge awakening, but you're not. Today's Christians don't know anything about devotion to spirituality. (Do you go to church every single day, sometimes more than once? They did.)

While looking through my astrology books to find just what the 12th House represents, I think it's funny how the 9th House represents spirituality for thousands of years, and then because someone figured Pisces is more spiritual than Sagittarius, and then figured the 12th House must be Pisces, that the 12th House must be spirituality.

But oh well, I think you honestly believe your pious bleating of "spirituality" is any different from mainstream religions. I think you separate the 9th House from the 12th based on what you perceive to be a very big difference in the approach taken. Your view (summed up by "spirituality is the MOST important thing in life") is very much a 9th House affair.
 
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RaptInReverie

Well-known member
MSO,

So a planet is debilitated because it doesn’t aspect the ascendant? I see now that a lot of the rationale here is based upon a fallacy that strength and power can be assessed by the way something appears. The ascendant (not necessarily the first house) represents, or theoretically should represent, the most exterior aspects of the individual: appearance, demeanor, and so on. These factors may or may not bear any resemblance to the true essence or potential of the individual. Planets that aspect the ascendant are pushed forward so that they appear to others, but this is by no means equivalent to making them more powerful. One can certainly posses power that is not evident by his appearance.

As for aspects, do you believe that oppositions and squares to the ascendant are better than no aspects to the ascendant at all? And do you believe that a conjunction with a “malefic” or a conjunction with a planet in its detriment or fall is more beneficial than having no aspects to the ascendant at all? In my humble opinion, Mercury is the only planet that does any good to be conjunct the ascendant. I’m sure many will disagree. So be it.

Depending on your preferences regarding orbs, a planet in the twelfth can aspect the ascendant. It can also aspect the lord of the ascendant or be in reception to it. Why is everyone clinging so tightly to the idea that the twelfth house is so unfortunate? It is only so because you make it so.
 

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Oh, I couldn't help myself, but in regards to the 9th house being spirituality thing: Jupiter rules both the 9th and the 12th. Interestingly enough, if you believe that houses correspond to the signs, Pisces is symbolized by Fish, a very ancient symbol of spirituality and religion (not just Christianity).
 

MSO

Well-known member
Why is everyone clinging so tightly to the idea that the twelfth house is so unfortunate? It is only so because you make it so.

The real question is, why are you clinging to the idea that the 12th House isn't so unfortunate? It's only because you wish it so.

Oh, I couldn't help myself, but in regards to the 9th house being spirituality thing: Jupiter rules both the 9th and the 12th. Interestingly enough, if you believe that houses correspond to the signs, Pisces is symbolized by Fish, a very ancient symbol of spirituality and religion (not just Christianity).

Lets play spot the flawed logic. I'll give you a hint: A=B=C.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
fwiw Anachiel mentions on another thread re: career:smile:
OK, so here is what I gather from Morius via Wharton....

1.Houses that are above the horizon tend to elevate whereas, those below the horizon tend toward corruption.


3.He (Morin) insinuates Ptolemy corrupted some of the meanings of the houses and was in opposition to the traditional meanings of the houses. Morinus insists that the 6th should signify servants contrary to what Ptolemy thought placing them in the 12th (oh-em-gee! - out of the frying pan and into the inferno-Ptolemy must have
really had a hard time finding good help).
 

BOOGY99

Well-known member
Thanks RaptInReverie.

I have read a lot about "past life regression", near-death-experiences, reincarnation, karma, small children remembering their past lives and other spiritual matters. All these books have the same message - that we are souls that incarnate on earth several times just so we can learn and grow spiritually - that is the ONLY PURPOSE of life on earth.
And the 12th makes us aware of this purpose.

There is no such thing as destruction, imprisonment or self-undoing - EVERY experience is for our spiritual growth. If we keep pursuing selfish matters and refuse to turn our attention to spiritual matters - then our higher selves have to get tough with us. They have to put us in situations where we are forced to see that love and compassion is ALL that matters.

If working in hospitals, institutions, prisons etc helps us to feel love and compassion for all beings - then what is wrong with it?

*********
Carris
i can relate to this, i have sun in conjunction with uranus, exact, and pluto in the 12th house in virgo.
i find no matter what i do, i am always brought back to spiritual matters which you have mentioned above.
Very interesting topic

my chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=754&pictureid=3691
 
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sandstone

Banned
i think it makes more sense to quote directly from morin, rather then quote from someone who is quoting from someone else, who in turn is quoting on morin's supposed comments on ptolemy.. i suppose this would require reading what morin had to say as opposed to grabbing something off the internet 3rd or 4th hand..

an interesting insight that morin actually did share (see book 21 - baldwin translation) was how houses opposite one another have some, or much in common with one another.. on a regular basis morin refers to understanding celestial position (signs) alongside terrestrial position (houses) and how they need to be clearly understood as working together with celestial position being given equal or greater consideration as i understand it.. what i understand this to mean for example is this - a planet in a dignified position by sign will operate very differently and generally more favourably, regardless of the house it is in, verses one that is debilitated which won't fair well, regardless of the house position it is in..

another consideration and which morin emphasized- is the planet that rules over the sign on a house cusp. having a planet in the 12th that rules the 9th house does show up in some of the spiritual leaders charts that i looked at, as does having the the ruler of the 12th in the 12th. obviously a broad topic like spirituality is going to be captured a number of different ways thru the multi-facet symbolism of astrology.. my own thoughts on this are that the water element seems to show up more often then not.. however this is a very subjective view on my part.

i like what someone else pointed out about how jupiter has an association with the 9th and 12th sign if you go with trad rulership themes.. i think spirituality is a broad area that can be approached a number of different ways and that making an association with the 12th sign or house is also a good one..

for anyone who'd like to take a look at some of the charts at astrodatabank.com using the search engine feature focused on the word 'religion' can go here.. i do think spirituality isn't one and the same as religion, but there is a lot of cross over.. either way i do think an association with jupiter is a good one, but depending on the orientation it could be a few planets/signs/houses that connect to this.. how is that for lousy goosey? just enough to drive a few bonkers..
 

StillOne

Well-known member
*********
Carris
i can relate to this, i have sun in conjunction with uranus, exact, and pluto in the 12th house in virgo.
i find no matter what i do, i am always brought back to spiritual matters which you have mentioned above.
Very interesting topic

my chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=754&pictureid=3691

Boogy,
Thanks for chiming in! Just FYI, I couldn't see your chart using that link for some reason. Would love to look at it! I have Sun conjunct Uranus as well, but it's in the 4th... another water house...

*******

I relate deeply to what Carris is saying regarding reincarnation and karma as well. However, I didn't always feel this way. As a matter of fact, when I was younger I rejected "religion" and was largely atheist. As I matured I became agnostic. Now I consider myself spiritual and the last few years have been all about discovering this aspect of myself. Astrology has helped here considerably.

What's also interesting to note is that, like Carris, my Saturn apex yod has Jupiter in the base... sextile a Venus/Neptune conjunction. You would have figured that I might have found spirituality sooner. However, Saturn being hidden in the 12th needed to be activated by the return in order for me to really pursue what was missing... although I always sensed something was missing which can be typical for a yod.

Carris, can you post a chart for us? Astro.com in the "extended chart selection" has friendly charts. It requires you to become a member but it's free.
 
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CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Fortunately, I have no planets or celestial bodies in my 12th -Gemini :smile: and was sparred the fate of state hospital institutionalization when I was a 4-year old boy diagnosed with autism in the mid-1980s when there was a risk, but my parents refused to admit me and came home with them.
 

MSO

Well-known member
I just want to say, before laughing my way out of this thread, that you guys are awesome. I mean, to throw out thousands of years of observations and just input your own ideals... really takes some brass ones.
 

Carris

Well-known member
Thanks Boogy99, RaptInReverie and StillOne

If people like MSO refuse to want to evolve their knowledge and understanding of a subject with time, and just want to cling to astrological ideas of the dark ages - there is nothing we can do. Just think what would happen if all our scientists clung to past knowledge and refused to study, research, explore and progress further - we wouldn't have Pasteur's germ theory, antibiotics and modern medicine for example. The "thousands of years of inputs and observations" MSO clings to have very little relevance in our times. Who knows how correct and sincere their "obervations and inputs" were in the first place? Maybe they were influenced by the power play, dirty politics and dictatorship of the church of those times. Anyone searching for true spirituality and questioning the church's interpretion was sent to prison - and attending church has nothing to do with spirituality.

And the 9th is about philosophy (a very earth bound subject, focussed solely on a single lifetime on earth), not spirituality (which is focussed on our eternal immortal spirit which lives many lifetimes on earth and other dimensions as well). All planets have a higher (spiritual) and lower (material) quality to them - jupiter is not especially spiritual.

Why do people confuse spirituality with religion? The two have absolutely nothing in common! Spirituality means being focussed on our soul/spirit and not on the physical/material side of life. It means not identifying with this temporary human condition - our soul/spirit is eternal and has lived many lives in all sorts of different situations - rich, poor, tall, short, black, white, etc - living through all these varieties of lifetimes is supposed to give us an all-round perspective of the human condition and thus learn the meaning and importance of spiritual qualities of love and COMPASSION for ALL beings. Old or advanced souls (those who have lived hundreds of lifetimes on earth) have this innate compassion, goodness, equality, unity, brotherhood, understanding, patience, tolerance, forgiveness and acceptance.

Religions teach us hatred, intolerance, coercion, bigotry, dogma, guilt, fear and sin - what does this have to do with spirituality? Religion has been all about power and politics through the ages - thats why they scare people with the concepts of salvation-damnation ("follow our religion or you are damned forever"). Its definitely not a 12th house concern.

StillOne

I too started exploring spirituality in earnest sometime after my saturn return - after 30. Till then I was focussed on following society's standards of what a "normal" life should be like - even though I always had the inner feeling that it was not for me. I guess its because real spiritual knowledge is not easily available - and as children we tend to automatically pick up our parent's and community's notions of these things. Around 25-30, I went through the sadness, frustration, depression, anxiety and sorrow ascribed to the 12th - because I was not happy with my job, career and life and yet, by society's standards I was being incredibly foolish (self undoing) to give it up. But I am now at peace. Most of the depression and loneliness is caused by my saturn opp venus.

Saturn is not "hidden" in the 12th - it is just being very patient (because the 12th is a spiritual, patient, tolerant, kindly, giving, peaceful, wise, modest, gentlemanly, well-bred, selfless house) while we are young. I think all planets in the 12th are affected by this "gentlemanly" quality of the 12th - even mars behaves himself here most of the time. A gentleman goes out of his way to be good to others - even if this means inconvenience to himself - the selfish material world unfortunately sees this as a foolish, self destructive thing. This gentleman (with high morals, principles, ethics, values) gets depressed when he sees the ill-bred, selfish, superficial, corrupt behavior of the world - and thus might want solitude and isolation, and maybe a few drinks.
 
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