Love2Know
Well-known member
She reminds me of some aquarius people I have met.... She also makes me super uncomfortable and I have no idea why, I don't know if its the Aquarius rising..
Madonna's Ascendant Isn't Virgo
- Thread starter Crystal Starseed
- Start date
She reminds me of some aquarius people I have met.... She also makes me super uncomfortable and I have no idea why, I don't know if its the Aquarius rising..
Augustmoon
New member
I think that her ascendant is virgo because I can sense the mercury in her, she is very nervous on stage and her hands even shake. Maybe she wishes she had another ascendant but it is what it is and virgo is an attractive ascendant, her moon is also rising, which could indicate some fame, as well as mercury which gives nervous energy, I know because my brother has this combination.
She has had her chart done. She definitely knows her birth time, therefore the birth time she gave the astrologer gave her rising sign as Aquarius.
Let's take a look at her family. Her daughter is a Libra sun (air) with early Pisces asc. If Madonna's has late Aqu. rising, her asc. is conjunct her daughter Lola's ascendant. This would make sense seeing as Lola looks and acts alot like Madonna. Her son Rocco is a Leo sun (like Madonna) with a Gemini ascendant (air). Her asc. is possibly trine her son's. Her father is a Gemini (air). Aquarius rising give her the air qualities missing in her planets. She has one planet in air.
A Virgo ascendant would make her chart an overload of Earth. She already has four earth planets in her chart. I feel like she has more fire and a Sag MC.
Kannon
Well-known member
This should be an interesting chart, since I've never done one for her. So I guess I'll chime in on this one, once I've done the work. The father's word of mouth report is definitely not very reliable, giving DD rated data. Hopefully it won't be a big fat hairy deal, but a clean cut easy one.
Ugh, this one's probably gonna be a real booger. Who knows if I'll get it done. Not my highest priority.
Ugh, this one's probably gonna be a real booger. Who knows if I'll get it done. Not my highest priority.
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Kannon
Well-known member
If you read the source notes on the astrodatabank page, the main problem here is there is distinct evidence that 1959 instead of 1958 may be her year of birth. Evidently the data she uses is 1959.
I can tell you this, there was no incarnation birth window in Aquarius in either '58 or '59 for her location and date of birth. She is not Aquarius rising. I doubted the claim, but wanted to see for myself. It is conclusive. The question still remains what the is the correct chart for her? I will find out. Generally when there is such nebulous or conflicting birth times, an angular Neptune factor related to the Asc/1st house or its ruler is in play in the correct chart.
I can tell you this, there was no incarnation birth window in Aquarius in either '58 or '59 for her location and date of birth. She is not Aquarius rising. I doubted the claim, but wanted to see for myself. It is conclusive. The question still remains what the is the correct chart for her? I will find out. Generally when there is such nebulous or conflicting birth times, an angular Neptune factor related to the Asc/1st house or its ruler is in play in the correct chart.
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She was born in 1958 and she uses that as her birthdate. She used to use 1959 many years ago publically to appear younger.
What are you talking about with "Incarnation birth window"?
Kannon
Well-known member
Well, boys and girls, I got lucky with the first chart I checked. She was indeed born in 1958.
I have just validated this chart to the satisfaction of Incarn astrology standards ( http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/standards-for-the-validation-of-birth-horoscopes/ )
Chart attached (with transits for date her son David was adopted by her):
Asc: 11LEO47 [17N15]
MC: astrodienst chart shows 29ARI05, but the correct one is 29ARI13 [11N12]
This one is an education in the importance of planets over signs. Notice Uranus conj Asc. Notice ruler of 5th house of music/performance, Jupiter, alongside Neptune and both opp MC. Natural (mundane) rulers of 5th, Leo is on Asc and Sun is in 1st. The 4th-10th Interception of signs fits her life story, learning from familial hardships, lessons early in life and creating an empire of her own productions. Neptune opp MC indicates the nebulous relationship with her father, represented by her 10th since she was born at night.
Savanna, I probably should make another thread for information related to Incarnation windows so that I can copy and paste the link into posts and not bog threads down with repeated tellings of it and veer the thread off course.
Have fun with it. More later.
I have just validated this chart to the satisfaction of Incarn astrology standards ( http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/standards-for-the-validation-of-birth-horoscopes/ )
Chart attached (with transits for date her son David was adopted by her):
Asc: 11LEO47 [17N15]
MC: astrodienst chart shows 29ARI05, but the correct one is 29ARI13 [11N12]
This one is an education in the importance of planets over signs. Notice Uranus conj Asc. Notice ruler of 5th house of music/performance, Jupiter, alongside Neptune and both opp MC. Natural (mundane) rulers of 5th, Leo is on Asc and Sun is in 1st. The 4th-10th Interception of signs fits her life story, learning from familial hardships, lessons early in life and creating an empire of her own productions. Neptune opp MC indicates the nebulous relationship with her father, represented by her 10th since she was born at night.
Savanna, I probably should make another thread for information related to Incarnation windows so that I can copy and paste the link into posts and not bog threads down with repeated tellings of it and veer the thread off course.
Have fun with it. More later.
Attachments
Nexus7
Well-known member
She could be lying though. Tp protect her privacy, or because she just prefers the idea of having an Aquarius ascendant to Virgo.
A Uranus rising in Leo would make the best sense to me though. You ahve thre outrageousness, but it is still a very 'me' vibe -she obviously never had time for political correctness from the beginning, not with songs like 'material girl' and 'like a prayer!'
I would have expectedan Aquarius rising to.have quite a few more outspoken ideas about how the world should be run
I think she is Aquarius ascendant for many reasons
1. Her Sun, Moon and Mercury in the 7th house (or maybe 6th house Sun)
2. Having an air ascendant like her son. Her ascendant conjunct her daughter's ascendant.
3. Saturn in her 10th house with a Sag MC (long, sometimes difficult but withstanding career)
4. Her knowledge on the sign of Aquarius and how she accurately related it to herself.
5. Her successors to her "pop throne" Britney and Christina having fire suns and air ascendants (Libra and Aquarius) ie. 2003 MTV Video Music Awards Performance where she kissed Britney and Christina
6. Her idol Marilyn Monore's moon in Aqu possibly conjunct Madonna's asc. with both having Leo dominant.
7. Virgo asc. would give her a 12th house Sun which is the exact opposite of her personality.
I could go on and on...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2qoYeh8tFs (at 5:33)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdYUcdmRg0 (at 4:37)
Not one but TWO interviews she states "My sun sign is Leo, my rising sign is Aquarius and my moon is in Virgo". What more do you want?! LOL
Too bad she doesn't give her birth time. If only...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdYUcdmRg0 (at 4:37)
Not one but TWO interviews she states "My sun sign is Leo, my rising sign is Aquarius and my moon is in Virgo". What more do you want?! LOL
Too bad she doesn't give her birth time. If only...
Nexus7
Well-known member
She would have to keep to her story though wouldn't she.
So, I knew about the Virgo Moon,there had to be, but when I frst saw a picture of her and read about her, she just came over as so hugely Leo.
And maybe it is isn't about a strong Sun. Maybe she has Uranus rising in Leo too.
So, I knew about the Virgo Moon,there had to be, but when I frst saw a picture of her and read about her, she just came over as so hugely Leo.
And maybe it is isn't about a strong Sun. Maybe she has Uranus rising in Leo too.
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I guess we can't trust most of the astrodatabank sources where celebs give birth times "from memory"...
Kannon
Well-known member
Madonna's pictures from her childhood and 20s show a clearly full rectangular/squarish facial outline allowing for a fixed sign on the Asc, not a mutable one, especially not Virgo. Plus the Virgo Asc + Moon personality is in complete contradiction to her flagrant outward behavior and performance.
Theoretically Aquarius, a fixed sign, could be on the Asc, but it would create an entirely different MC/IC axis with MC in late Scorpio/early Sag. The MC is really important in a celebrity careerist and could be the only way to track them. Check the MC transits and progressions for major public/career events like record releases, book releases, these hitting the best seller lists, etc. I've already validated this chart sufficiently enough using other events, but let's do this for the doubters...
Theoretically Aquarius, a fixed sign, could be on the Asc, but it would create an entirely different MC/IC axis with MC in late Scorpio/early Sag. The MC is really important in a celebrity careerist and could be the only way to track them. Check the MC transits and progressions for major public/career events like record releases, book releases, these hitting the best seller lists, etc. I've already validated this chart sufficiently enough using other events, but let's do this for the doubters...
Kannon
Well-known member
Reliance on birth time record on a document without question or verification is to act as if such a non-astrological document holds more information about the native than that person does with their body or life. Reliance on word of mouth or memory from the person (especially since Madonna is not an astrologer) creates a weak astrology of presumption. The body cannot lie. It reveals the essence of the person when viewed along with their actions.
Madonna's pictures from her childhood and 20s show a clearly full rectangular/squarish facial outline allowing for a fixed sign on the Asc, not a mutable one, especially not Virgo. Plus the Virgo Asc + Moon personality is in complete contradiction to her flagrant outward behavior and performance.
Theoretically Aquarius, a fixed sign, could be on the Asc, but it would not predispose her whatsoever for the love and care of children (which is far more natural to Leo/5th types). Plus it would create an entirely different MC/IC axis with MC in late Scorpio/early Sag. The MC is really important in a celebrity careerist and could be the only way to track them. Check the MC transits and progressions for major public/career events like record releases, book releases, these hitting the best seller lists, etc. I've already validated this chart sufficiently enough using other events, but let's do this for the doubters...
Pardon me, I forgot to post the validating progressions with my chart attachment previously.
Progressions of Madonna's 11LEO47 [17N15] chart:
Injury 16 August 2005: fell off horse, cracking 3 ribs, breaking collar bone and hand.
- pr Asc [5N04] Parallel n Mercury [5N03] (ruler of collarbones) <01'>
- pr Asc semi-square n Neptune (ruler of horses) <07'>a
- pr Jupiter (ruler of 5th, horses) Q n Sun (ruler of Asc) <08'>a
- pr Uranus square n Mars <07'>a
- pr Mercury sextile n 5th cusp (ruler horse riding/racing) <03'>a
Married Sean Penn 16 August 1985.
* pr DC/7th cusp [10S44] Parallel pr Jupiter [10S50] (ruler of vows and her 5th) <06'>s
* pr DC Parallel n Neptune [10S38] <06'>a
* pr Uranus (ruler of Asc) [17N10] Parallel n Asc (CP n DC) <05'>s - classic confirmation that Asc is within minutes of arc (longitude).
- pr Mercury conj n Pluto <02'>a
- pr PoF semi-sextile n Neptune <03'>a
- pr Sun (ruler, Asc) square n Saturn <01'>a
Married Guy Ritchie 22 December 2000
- pr Mercury semi-square n Uranus (ruler DC) <08'>s
- pr PoF sextile n Mars <05'>a
- Saturn sextile n Chiron <04'>s
Lourdes born to her 14 October 1996 = 5th house/ruler Jupiter.
* pr 5th cusp 11CAP34 semi-sextile pr Moon 11AQU26 <08'>a
- pr Venus BQ pr Moon <02'>s
- pr PoF conj n MC (opp IC) <08'>a
- pr Saturn sextile n Chiron <09'>a
- pr Venus semi-square n Neptune <06'>a
- pr Mars sextile n Venus <08'>s
- pr Mercury quincunx n Chiron <09'>s
Adopted David 28 May 2008.
* pr 5th cusp Parallel n Saturn <03'>
* pr Mars BQ n Jupiter (ruler of 5th) <03'>a
- pr Saturn semi-square pr Jupiter (ruler, n 5th) <02'>a
- pr Asc square n Saturn <09'>s
- pr Uranus square n Mars <00'>
- pr Venus semi-sextile n Pluto <09'>s
---------NOW FOR CAREER EVENTS----------
Debut album, "Madonna" released 27 July 1983. This will involve MC (29ARI05 / 11N09)and probably 5th cusp/ruler.
TRANSITS:
* Uranus BQ n MC orb<0*07'>a - when an artistic endeavor gains distinction this planet is very often transiting the MC.
* Neptune sesquiquadrate n Asc <09'>a
- Jupiter quincunx MC <2*>
- Saturn opp MC <1*>
- Neptune in 5th house trine MC <2*>
- Pluto opp MC <2*>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr Asc sextile pr Jupiter (ruler of n 5th) <01'>a
- pr Asc semi-sextile n Venus <07'>s
- pr Mercury trine n MC <07'>a
- pr Jupiter square n Venus <07'>s
- pr MC quincunx n N.Node <02'>a
"Ray of Light" was released 3 March 1998. Again MC, and 5th = creative output.
TRANSITS:
- Uranus opp Asc <1*>
- Pluto trine Asc <4*>
- Venus square MC <-1*>
- Mars semi-sextile MC <-1*>
- Neptune square MC <2*>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr Asc semi-square n Jupiter (ruler of 5th) <09'>s
- pr 5th cusp 12CAP48 quincunx n Uranus 12LEO41 <07'>s
- pr Venus square n Saturn <02'>a
- pr Neptune conj pr Jupiter <03'>s
"Ray of Light" won four Grammy Awards on 24 Feb 1999. This event will show MC aspects for the honors bestowed. (Using 25 Feb 0:00 UT for eve timing in USA).
TRANSITS:
- Uranus [17S13] ContraParallel Asc <0*02'>
- Uranus still opp Asc <2*>
- Saturn conj MC <-1*>
- Uranus square n Mars (ruler of MC) <1*>
- Jupiter quincunx n Neptune <09'>s
- Pluto [10S32] CP n MC <41'>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr MC [21N45] ContraParallel n Saturn [21S44] <01'>
- pr Sun semi-sextile n Neptune <02'>s
- pr Venus [5N08] Parallel n Mercury [5N03] <05'>a
There should be no doubt left in anyone's mind this is Madonna's correct natal chart. If there is, do further in-depth study on rulerships, especially the Asc/1st house rulership of body/personality. I recommend The Rulership Book, by Rex Bills, as well as The Rising Sign Problem, by John Willner (for Asc/body/face).
When it comes to verification, use the aspectarian. All these aspects listed were taken from astrodienst's pdf data sheet aspectarian. Even "minor" aspects count for major events. Those aspects aren't really minor anyway, especially when they involve slower moving outer planets.
Madonna's pictures from her childhood and 20s show a clearly full rectangular/squarish facial outline allowing for a fixed sign on the Asc, not a mutable one, especially not Virgo. Plus the Virgo Asc + Moon personality is in complete contradiction to her flagrant outward behavior and performance.
Theoretically Aquarius, a fixed sign, could be on the Asc, but it would not predispose her whatsoever for the love and care of children (which is far more natural to Leo/5th types). Plus it would create an entirely different MC/IC axis with MC in late Scorpio/early Sag. The MC is really important in a celebrity careerist and could be the only way to track them. Check the MC transits and progressions for major public/career events like record releases, book releases, these hitting the best seller lists, etc. I've already validated this chart sufficiently enough using other events, but let's do this for the doubters...
Pardon me, I forgot to post the validating progressions with my chart attachment previously.
Progressions of Madonna's 11LEO47 [17N15] chart:
Injury 16 August 2005: fell off horse, cracking 3 ribs, breaking collar bone and hand.
- pr Asc [5N04] Parallel n Mercury [5N03] (ruler of collarbones) <01'>
- pr Asc semi-square n Neptune (ruler of horses) <07'>a
- pr Jupiter (ruler of 5th, horses) Q n Sun (ruler of Asc) <08'>a
- pr Uranus square n Mars <07'>a
- pr Mercury sextile n 5th cusp (ruler horse riding/racing) <03'>a
Married Sean Penn 16 August 1985.
* pr DC/7th cusp [10S44] Parallel pr Jupiter [10S50] (ruler of vows and her 5th) <06'>s
* pr DC Parallel n Neptune [10S38] <06'>a
* pr Uranus (ruler of Asc) [17N10] Parallel n Asc (CP n DC) <05'>s - classic confirmation that Asc is within minutes of arc (longitude).
- pr Mercury conj n Pluto <02'>a
- pr PoF semi-sextile n Neptune <03'>a
- pr Sun (ruler, Asc) square n Saturn <01'>a
Married Guy Ritchie 22 December 2000
- pr Mercury semi-square n Uranus (ruler DC) <08'>s
- pr PoF sextile n Mars <05'>a
- Saturn sextile n Chiron <04'>s
Lourdes born to her 14 October 1996 = 5th house/ruler Jupiter.
* pr 5th cusp 11CAP34 semi-sextile pr Moon 11AQU26 <08'>a
- pr Venus BQ pr Moon <02'>s
- pr PoF conj n MC (opp IC) <08'>a
- pr Saturn sextile n Chiron <09'>a
- pr Venus semi-square n Neptune <06'>a
- pr Mars sextile n Venus <08'>s
- pr Mercury quincunx n Chiron <09'>s
Adopted David 28 May 2008.
* pr 5th cusp Parallel n Saturn <03'>
* pr Mars BQ n Jupiter (ruler of 5th) <03'>a
- pr Saturn semi-square pr Jupiter (ruler, n 5th) <02'>a
- pr Asc square n Saturn <09'>s
- pr Uranus square n Mars <00'>
- pr Venus semi-sextile n Pluto <09'>s
---------NOW FOR CAREER EVENTS----------
Debut album, "Madonna" released 27 July 1983. This will involve MC (29ARI05 / 11N09)and probably 5th cusp/ruler.
TRANSITS:
* Uranus BQ n MC orb<0*07'>a - when an artistic endeavor gains distinction this planet is very often transiting the MC.
* Neptune sesquiquadrate n Asc <09'>a
- Jupiter quincunx MC <2*>
- Saturn opp MC <1*>
- Neptune in 5th house trine MC <2*>
- Pluto opp MC <2*>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr Asc sextile pr Jupiter (ruler of n 5th) <01'>a
- pr Asc semi-sextile n Venus <07'>s
- pr Mercury trine n MC <07'>a
- pr Jupiter square n Venus <07'>s
- pr MC quincunx n N.Node <02'>a
"Ray of Light" was released 3 March 1998. Again MC, and 5th = creative output.
TRANSITS:
- Uranus opp Asc <1*>
- Pluto trine Asc <4*>
- Venus square MC <-1*>
- Mars semi-sextile MC <-1*>
- Neptune square MC <2*>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr Asc semi-square n Jupiter (ruler of 5th) <09'>s
- pr 5th cusp 12CAP48 quincunx n Uranus 12LEO41 <07'>s
- pr Venus square n Saturn <02'>a
- pr Neptune conj pr Jupiter <03'>s
"Ray of Light" won four Grammy Awards on 24 Feb 1999. This event will show MC aspects for the honors bestowed. (Using 25 Feb 0:00 UT for eve timing in USA).
TRANSITS:
- Uranus [17S13] ContraParallel Asc <0*02'>
- Uranus still opp Asc <2*>
- Saturn conj MC <-1*>
- Uranus square n Mars (ruler of MC) <1*>
- Jupiter quincunx n Neptune <09'>s
- Pluto [10S32] CP n MC <41'>
PROGRESSIONS:
- pr MC [21N45] ContraParallel n Saturn [21S44] <01'>
- pr Sun semi-sextile n Neptune <02'>s
- pr Venus [5N08] Parallel n Mercury [5N03] <05'>a
There should be no doubt left in anyone's mind this is Madonna's correct natal chart. If there is, do further in-depth study on rulerships, especially the Asc/1st house rulership of body/personality. I recommend The Rulership Book, by Rex Bills, as well as The Rising Sign Problem, by John Willner (for Asc/body/face).
When it comes to verification, use the aspectarian. All these aspects listed were taken from astrodienst's pdf data sheet aspectarian. Even "minor" aspects count for major events. Those aspects aren't really minor anyway, especially when they involve slower moving outer planets.
LeoCassandra
Well-known member
Astrotheme.com has changed her ASC from Virgo to Aquarius. Chiron and Lilith are in the 1st house
Moog
Well-known member
Astro Databank was given false information on Madonna's birth time.
The source states:
Their Astrology Handbookch. 7.2 "Birth registry access rules for countries other than USA" states:
Madonna's BC would have no time on it since she was born in 1958.The ADB is afraid to change this information since it was collected by Lois Rodden.
The source states:
Their Astrology Handbookch. 7.2 "Birth registry access rules for countries other than USA" states:
Madonna's BC would have no time on it since she was born in 1958.The ADB is afraid to change this information since it was collected by Lois Rodden.