Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Freedomlover is a very good moniker. You're bringing things forward so they can be healed and released. May we all do the same so we don't carry the hurt forward. I can't fathom why anyone would get into being with a child in that way. One possibility that came to mind is that they were lacking the intimate nurturing they needed as a child and this is how they try to substitute. There is a fine line between sex and nurturning. In fact, sex is one form of nurturing each other in a healthy relationship.

Another question I've had is how the 5th house in traditional western astrogy became the house of love, lovers, sex and children. A child should be the result of loving sex but to have the child and lover in the same place with sex seems odd.

Aquarian Essence,

You wrote:

One possibility that came to mind is that they were lacking the intimate nurturing they needed as a child and this is how they try to substitute. There is a fine line between sex and nurturning. In fact, sex is one form of nurturing each other in a healthy relationship.

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It's interesting that you should say this. A few years ago, I did some work with a Shaman, who contacted my deceased uncle. ( My understanding was that he had remained earthbound.) She contacted him and he said that he did it because "He wanted you to love him." My grandmother (his mother) was extremely cold and detached. Both of the boys turned out to be child molesters. The oldest boy molested my mother and her sister (his younger sisters). Then the younger brother molested me and my older sister, as he lived with us when we were small.

Another question I've had is how the 5th house in traditional western astrogy became the house of love, lovers, sex and children. A child should be the result of loving sex but to have the child and lover in the same place with sex seems odd.

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This is how I see it:

True balance of any sign requires a balance of all four elements in whatever cross that sign is part of (fixed for Leo) in order for the sign to express itself in a healthy way. When things get out of balance, you have perversion of the sign. The farther out of balance, the worse the perversion.

I read once that many **** stars had Moon in Aquarius, or heavy Aquarius placements. This is because, in the perversion of the energies of the fixed cross, out-of-balance Aquarian energies are devoid of emotional bonding, and in it for the pleasure and/or the money only. This is alot of what is wrong with society today - the casual sex that is a perversion of the fixed cross energies. If there is no emotional bonding and commitment, you have emotional barriers and emotional manipulation, which actually accomplish the opposite of what sex was intended for. Possessiveness can also cause some perversion, if you are trying to use sex to hang on to the wrong person, or if they don't really want to be with you. (Right use of Aquarian energies required).

In a totally balanced expression of the fixed cross, there will be an emphasis on the Scorpio house of soul mates and emotional bonding. (The two become one.) Ideally emotions would be entirely healed and the individuals would both have a great degree of empathic healing ability.
There would be no possessiveness and there would be equality and free will. There would be an honoring and equality of the Divine Feminine with the Divine Masculine.

Also, important in the balance of the energies of the fixed cross, and to keep sex free of perversion, is the respect for the body and the Earth - a need to be grounded and have your root chakra clear.

And going back to your question about the 5th house, Leo representing sex and the child. Well, in the perversion of the energies, as in casual sex, the people obviously don't realize what they are doing and what great damage they are causing to their souls and bodies by engaging in such. So, they are ignorant and spiritually immature. Is that really that much different than child molestation? Yes, the adult is using free will and realizes more of what is happening than the child. But the damage done to them in spirit, soul, and body, is very similar to the damage done to the child who meekly went along with their molester. Would the average person engage in casual sex if they really, really knew what kind of energies were involved and the damage it does?

Freedomlover

I still think the 8th is the physical act of sex and the 5th is where you learn how to honor sex through love. The failure to learn how to, not only balance the opposite axis, but also integrate the squares harmoniously is where the perversion would come in. As for your last statement, I think that casual sex is probably seeking love and if love were there it wouldn't be casual. But then, one also has to recognize that sex has a primary function of procreation and those instincts are there wether we have a love relationship or not and wether we have sufficiently procreated or not. So what would be termed casual sex is often the body acting on instinct. If the person "is love" then no contact with another person is casual but has deep significance, so even a one night stand can be embrased by love, maybe not the kind we think of for living together happily ever after but still love and mutual respect. Back in the day, there were vestals that saw to mans needs who didn't have a mate and their view was one of joining man with God through the sacred act of sex. That would be labeled casual sex, I guess, but it really wasn't.

About the 5th and 8th house, to Aquarian

Aquarian,

It can help to understand the difference between the 5th and 8th house if we keep in mind their placement relative to the 7th house (relationships). The 5th house is before the 7th house, so the 5th house is about the kind of romantic love we have before we are "serious" and partnering with someone. This "romantic love" includes dating, casual sex, etc. The 8th house is after the 7th house, so the 8th house is about the results that come out of the 7th house partnership. So "sexual love" (making a baby, having married sex, etc.) comes from the 8th house. Ideally we date around until we find the best romantic partner for us (5th house), make some form of commitment to the partnership (7th house), and then form a bond with the partner that includes sex (8th house). However, in the real, non-idea world, some people only want to date and others only want to partner!

In different houses,

Tim

Re: About the 5th and 8th house, to Aquarian

Aquarian Essence,

You wrote:

I still think the 8th is the physical act of sex and the 5th is where you learn how to honor sex through love. The failure to learn how to, not only balance the opposite axis, but also integrate the squares harmoniously is where the perversion would come in.

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Yes, that statement was inherent in what I was saying, I just didn't spell it out by the houses. The 8th would have to deal with the physical act, because it includes the polarity of the 2nd, which is an Earth house, so it is the merging of both the bodies(2nd) and the souls (8th). The auras blend, and this is how you can pick up negative energy from the other through sex. Of course, I would think you can pick up positive energy as well, and that's why sacred sex is healing. My understanding of the 5th house is that it is the house of the "open heart, that both gives and receives love". In the lower vibrations, the heart is not truly open to giving and receiving, and sex pretty much is ego-based.

If the person "is love" then no contact with another person is casual but has deep significance, so even a one night stand can be embrased by love, maybe not the kind we think of for living together happily ever after but still love and mutual respect.

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That thought has occurred to me before. I think it may be possible.... in a perfect world. I read something in one of Sylvia Browne's books on the Other Side(Heaven) that comes to mind. She said that in the Spirit Realm there is no sex as we know it, but they "merge" with others by joining their spirits with another, and that it is very blissful. (no bodies, of course). They were not confined to just one person to merge with either. So, if we are free of impurities and have the goal of just wanting to be One with the other in pure love, then that would be possible. Unfortunately the world does not work that way right now.

Back in the day, there were vestals that saw to mans needs who didn't have a mate and their view was one of joining man with God through the sacred act of sex. That would be labeled casual sex, I guess, but it really wasn't.

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I was vaguely aware of the practice, but really don't know anything about it. My jury is out on this one until I find out more information to form an opinion. Thanks for bringing it up!

WilsonTC,

You wrote:

It can help to understand the difference between the 5th and 8th house if we keep in mind their placement relative to the 7th house (relationships). The 5th house is before the 7th house, so the 5th house is about the kind of romantic love we have before we are "serious" and partnering with someone. This "romantic love" includes dating, casual sex, etc. The 8th house is after the 7th house, so the 8th house is about the results that come out of the 7th house partnership. So "sexual love" (making a baby, having married sex, etc.) comes from the 8th house. Ideally we date around until we find the best romantic partner for us (5th house), make some form of commitment to the partnership (7th house), and then form a bond with the partner that includes sex (8th house). However, in the real, non-idea world, some people only want to date and others only want to partner!

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Yes, I agree, that should be the progression, and that is inherent in the example I gave of the fixed signs without perversion. However, the area where it still goes wrong, even if one follows this pattern, (How many times have I heard horror stories from women who said, "But I waited until I got married!!!", and still have awful problems) is this: 7th house/marriage is naturally ruled by Libra. Libra is part of the cardinal fixed cross. Therefore a balance of the four signs needs to be achieved to avoid perversion. For example, Capricorn rules respect for God's natural laws, or the perversion of them, including respect for the Earth and things created. Capricorn also rules the world's system of money, big business, etc. Capricorn also rules "Heaven's Gate".

If there is balance in the Cardinal cross, there is an element of personal mastery, and cooperation with God's natural laws and respect for the earth (including restoration of the Divine Feminine). Then all four elements flow together and cooperate, alleviating the friction of the squares. If you will notice, one of the biggest problems in marriages is money, if even just working for it for survival. (Sadly in many marriages - and singles- the focus is not just on survival, but on acquiring more and more earthly possessions, stockpiling money, etc.--all perversion of Earth signs) This causes focus on obtaining the needs of life, instead of focusing on relationships. In God's economy, your physical needs are provided so that you can focus on relationships, which is what marriage is all about. The polarity of Capricorn is key, in most cases. Capricorn's lower vibration denies, belittles, etc, the emotions of its polarity, Cancer. Cancer's emotions must always be taken into account, as well. If you are not operating in God's economy, according to natural law, with your focus on being love, Capricorn will always be a hard square on the marriage. If emotions go unhealed, Cancer will always be a hard square on the marriage.

Quoting the words of Jesus, from Matthew Chapter 6, vs. 19-33:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 “But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 “But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

The Cure for Anxiety

25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27 “And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30 “But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31 “Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32 “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

[/FONT]Notice there is nothing wrong with enjoying life on Earth, as long as your focus is on the right things.

So, Tim, what you pointed out in the chart is very true, with the critical point being the balance of the Cardinal energies (both partners seeking the Kingdom of God and choosing to follow God's laws) when the marriage is entered into.

Freedomlover

Re: About the 5th and 8th house, to Aquarian

Good points, both of you. So it sounds like you both agree that the 8th is the sex house. But I'm still curious as to how the reasoning worked with Liliy and others to assign the 5th with those duties. I agree completely with both your words on balancing the cardinal, fixed and mutable grand squares in order to have a healthy life and are probably learned in that order. The fixed grand square is probably the toughest lessons and I wonder if failure there, lack of understanding or stubborn resistance is what brings on health problems shown by the mutable grand square, and going to prison would be included in the problems manifested.

The 12th house is the traditional home of incarcaration. But its the home of many things including that which has not been brought out into the open but is hidden down the family line - eg skeletons in the family closet.
12th house is the place of escape from the mundane world (ordinary world that is)

Other factors which got someone into the prison tho would be indicated in other houses possibly.

To me the 8th is the house of the taboo - whatever is taboo for that particular family line / era and person. Its also the house of shared resources and two people merging to be one eg the intimacy within a relationship when it goes to the next level after the 7th house.

This is my childs chart, she seems to have issues with going to jail althought minor every so often something comes along and triggers this aspect. She is Aquarius ASC ruler is Uranus and it is in the 12th along with Neppie. Saturn in the 1st all of which Shining Ray say are indicators of jail. Now I as a parent am heartbroken worried sick stressed out etc every time this happens. SHe has been somewhat lucky and not had to stay overnight I equate this to Jupiter at the apex of her chart.

I believe that Progressed shows real time? She is at 0* pisces ASC ruler Jupiter ::clap clap: BUT saturn is at 4* pisces making sure that she does everything descent and in order. meanwhile uranus and neptune are in the 11th house of friends. I believe she is awful at picking friends thanks to ole Neppie.

So Now she has pluto on the MC and Mars in the 6th natally. Gives her a passion for investigating and sharp objects. She loves all things autopsy? I am interested in guiding her to overcome these jail aspects. Outside of what parents ordinarily do in teaching and training their kids to do the right thing what can I do to position her to get on the positive side of these aspects. She is rebelious and I am hoping that she will grow out of this. she also has a few other planets on the critical degree me moon on 0* in 8th?

Any help, suggestions is appreciated.


Desperate mom...

Teb, your daughter brings to my mind the dark haired Gothic genius on one of the crime shows. I think your daughter is gifted in areas like investigative forensic work or even a surgeon. The Chiron union with Sun in Virgo could be a healer and the Scorpio energy could cover delving in the the mysteries that make people tick, psychology. That Jupiter you give credit to for making her stay in jail short is her friend, not Neptune. The trigger point for arrest or dealings with the law could be transits to Jupiter/Saturn, which is in Capricorn, nearly exact to the 12th cusp. This leads me to the caboose of her locomotive configuration. Mars is the engine, intuitively driven, but Saturn is trying to put on the brakes from the back end. That need not be bad though. They are part of a grand trine that is rather psychic. The trick there is for her to learn how to recognize what is hers and what comes from someone else. That shouldn't be that difficult though. She has plenty of earth energy to ground herself and the ability to use reason to make sense out of her psychic sensations or feelings. Aquarius and a Virgo Moon has the ability to have intuition based on reason. That can be a gift in any career she chooses. A grand trine needs something to trigger it out of dormancy though, because they are natural gifts that are taken for granted, not even noticed until they become active. The opposition from Chiron and Sun should be able to wake them up. Maybe you saw it trying to be expressed when Mercury progressed to 21-22 Libra, the solstice point of Saturn. Capricorn on the 12th needs to bring what can't be seen but nonetheless exists, into tangible form. Discovering the photon or a planet in another galaxy that can support life would be an extreme example. Seeing a dream manifest in the waking world, even if only in symbolic form, would be another.

I suspect one thing that could help balance her energies is to find inspiration and her passion because fire is lacking completely, through the major bodies. Perhaps the asteroids can give some ideas as to where fire can be tapped into. People that fill her 3rd, 7th and 11th houses are other sources. She also has Venus and Moon void by sign and that can be a blessing and a curse, depending on how you look at it. During voids, there are certain things available that aren't otherwise. Things can be overlooked that could be of benefit or else she is the perfect person to spot them.

Just a few thoughts at the end of my day. Hope it gives you some hope and ideas. I think you have a gifted daughter.

I know someone that was born in prison...

IDK his time, but Im thinking a 12th house moon, what do you think?

AquarianEssence said:

PO rape is calculated as Sun+Ne-UR and yes, I've seen it work, even if I'm wrong here.

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Sorry to bother about a not-so-recent comment on this topic, as I have just seen it. I couldn't help but calculate mine and it is in Virgo in the sixth, very close conjunction with my Part of Fortune (basically standing on it!), Juno and Jupiter. It doesn't make aspects with other planets, just trine with MC and Pallas/Sedna (conjunction)(I really wanted to know whether it interacts with anything!) Meaning?? It seems very interestingly put and these aspects are those of the POF also, so? I don't know how to understand it. I thought until now that my marriage has something to do with POF, Jupiter and it is good (I'm not married) but conjunct with this point?? I'm !!!

Yes I think strong 12th house for sure.. Neptune Pisces etc.
Pluto can also mean criminality and strong Scorpio....

Lion o ness said:

I know someone that was born in prison...

IDK his time, but Im thinking a 12th house moon, what do you think?

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INteresting situation... and rare I imagine.. Maybe Neptune Pisces on the 1st???? as well as Moon in the 12th... 6th house Neptune Pisces as well for accommodation, food, shelter i.e. everyday needs...or 4th house Pisces or Neptune...... depends on whether it was the baby's home for any length of time...

Im not 100% sure... I think he was just born there... But not totally sure..

I do know his mom, kept him a secret from all family saying she had a miscarriage..

The father found out about him, when he was 4.. But I dont know all the details behind it..

When I adjusted the chart with moon in h12..
It's virgo moon, virgo asc..

Neptune/Uranus in Cap in H4

Thank you, very helpful and useful.

=AquarianEssence;325734]Teb, your daughter brings to my mind the dark haired Gothic us on one of the crime shows. I think your daughter is gifted in areas like investigative forensic work or even a surgeon. The Chiron union with Sun in Virgo could be a healer and the Scorpio energy could cover delving in the the mysteries that make people tick, psychology. That Jupiter you give credit to for making her stay in jail short is her friend, not Neptune. The trigger point for arrest or dealings with the law could be transits to Jupiter/Saturn, which is in Capricorn, nearly exact to the 12th cusp. This leads me to the caboose of her locomotive configuration. Mars is the engine, intuitively driven, but Saturn is trying to put on the brakes from the back end. That need not be bad though. They are part of a grand trine that is rather psychic. The trick there is for her to learn how to recognize what is hers and what comes from someone else. That shouldn't be that difficult though. She has plenty of earth energy to ground herself and the ability to use reason to make sense out of her psychic sensations or feelings. Aquarius and a Virgo Moon has the ability to have intuition based on reason. That can be a gift in any career she chooses. A grand trine needs something to trigger it out of dormancy though, because they are natural gifts that are taken for granted, not even noticed until they become active. The opposition from Chiron and Sun should be able to wake them up. Maybe you saw it trying to be expressed when Mercury progressed to 21-22 Libra, the solstice point of Saturn. Capricorn on the 12th needs to bring what can't be seen but nonetheless exists, into tangible form. Discovering the photon or a planet in another galaxy that can support life would be an extreme example. Seeing a dream manifest in the waking world, even if only in symbolic form, would be another.

I suspect one thing that could help balance her energies is to find inspiration and her passion because fire is lacking completely, through the major bodies. Perhaps the asteroids can give some ideas as to where fire can be tapped into. People that fill her 3rd, 7th and 11th houses are other sources. She also has Venus and Moon void by sign and that can be a blessing and a curse, depending on how you look at it. During voids, there are certain things available that aren't otherwise. Things can be overlooked that could be of benefit or else she is the perfect person to spot them.

Just a few thoughts at the end of my day. Hope it gives you some hope and ideas. I think you have a gifted daughter.[/QUOTE]

Dear All,
I have been reading this thread with considerable amount of interest, although I have no knowledge of astrology and how to read the charts!

This is because I have recently been arrested, am currently on bail, with the next bail hearing due for 13th June 2012, and at some point soon, I will be charged with some criminal offenses and sent to prison.

I am wondering if astrology can see all this coming? and the duration of the prison sentence etc?

If astrologers can do this, consider me a convert!

My date of birth is 23rd sept 1971, time approx. 13.10pm indian standard time at delhi, India 77.10E, 28.38N

currect location and living in manchester uk

The exact date of arrest, incarceration was 8th march 2012, but I was bailed for 3 months pending further investigations.

Any help, input advice would be welcome.

Thanks

Adrienne said:

Are people more predisposed to end up in prison if they have planets in the 12th house. What about people falsely accused of a crime, would they have particularly bad aspects in their chart ?

Just curious.

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Hello Adrienne,

The 12th domain is the house of public service, so it pertains to that which is all-inclusive of serving humanity - whether positively or negatively. Those in jail serve the public in a negative sense. They are considered public offenders and so serve time in jail in that regard (at the monetary expense of the public).

At the opposite spectrum (the positive side), there are those who benefit or leave to posterity something worthwhile to humanity. This can be of any profession, by the way. Great playwrights, artists, performers, scientists (Einstein being just one example), activists, et cetera, fall in this category.

There are also those who may not leave something to posterity but who still greatly serve and benefit humanity day-by-day - such as doctors, nurses, police officers, judges, etc.

As to what astrological aspects would indicate if an individual is predisposed to activities that might put him or her in prison, harsh aspects to the ASC (or its ruler), Mars, the Sun, and 12th house planets are likely to play a role.

But human beings are quite complex and have free-wills of their own. As such, they can act or respond in any number of ways to stimuli/urges.


Take care.
Shaun

To me, the 12th place is a kind of limbo between worlds.

People undergoing a period ruled by a planet in the 12th or ruling it may find themselves in this place for a time, long or short.

The nature of the place of isolation depends on the planet(s) involved, their strength and dignity, and the sign on the 12th.

I've seen examples of people put in care (group) homes, prisons, mental hospitals, regular hospital, or simply just retreated into their bedrooms for a spell.

What happens in all cases is that there is a separation between the person involved and the rest of the 'real' world. 12th house planets have little ability to be part of, influence, or act within the 'real', material world. And so natives undergoing these experiences find themselves divorced from it.