Hyleg and Alcocoden

Konrad

Account Closed
Yes, the notion that the Hellenes were predominately using Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac is simply wrong. They were using Babylonian tables which were Sidereal. Valens himself used something other than the Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac to measure his longitudes as evidenced by his comments on the position of the Equinox. Of course, this doesn't make either zodiac any more 'right' than the other, but we should at least try to split the significations derived from the Sidereal from those that are Tropical. As far as I can see, that potentially doesn't leave Tropical astrologers much to work with, but they've been fine so far. I guess the next few generations will really see the difference as we get a larger and larger degree dufference
 
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zoidsoft

Well-known member
As to which zodiac Valens used, I think it is important to think philosophically about such statements as "equally rising", "equal power" and the ascensions of the zoidia. While some statements suggest sidereal thinking, it is a mathematical fact that zoidia are equally rising (or have the same ascensional times) only in a tropical zodiac of 0 degrees. It is also however true that there are some mathematical misconceptions about the ascensions as shown in the tables which conspicuously round off to 60/180 degrees. The actual correct values of course depend upon latitude.

One has to be careful about the statements about system A, or system B (offsetting the zodiac by 8, 10 or even 15 degrees). Valens often states things that he doesn't actually do (such as loosing of the bond to the trigon instead of the opposition). I have gone through several of Valens chart examples in Delphic Oracle (software that I wrote) and even though many examples have planets off by several degrees, often some planets are conspicuously correct if one considers 0 degrees (tropical).

The problem is that in Valens time, the issue of zodiac (sidereal or tropical) was not well defined, so although they used star positions to help fix positions, their thinking was actually a mix of both.
 

Konrad

Account Closed
I agree, there was definitely a mixture of both ideas, but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries. The accuracy of theit calculations compared to modern software doesn't change that.
 

zoidsoft

Well-known member
...but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries...

Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...
 

Konrad

Account Closed
Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I have no problem in pointing out mistakes of past authors while bearing in mind that I am fortunate to exist in a time if bountiful source material and ease of accurate calculation. That said, I was specifically talking of Valens with my comments about the Equinix and also I do acknowledge tge Hellenes were mixing apples and oranges with their use of equal risings and antiscia and such things. As I said though, if you choose a Tropical zodiac and its mathematical peculiarities, then you have a hard time explaining other sign attributes.
 
Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 15°21‘ orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?
 

zoidsoft

Well-known member
Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 15°21‘ orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?

Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).
 
Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).

Thanks for your answer! Really appreciate it.
I agree to pay attention to all of Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune. But some guys in this post before said hyleg and alcocoden show the least longevity which can be prolonged by modern medical treatment. I'm a little confused. And bounds forming constitution never showed up in this longevity topic!
If my sun can't be hyleg, neither my masculine moon in 1st house. I'm conjunctional, so Asc can be hyleg, which conjucts lord sun. Sun is alcocoden, which conjuncts Jupiter (combustion) and Moon (rays). Sun gives the most longevity. Though Jupiter is combustion and moon rays, jupiter has triplicity and moon conjuncts Regulus and both in first house. I assume they can at least add some yrs.
So my longevity could be 120+? Or even 150+?
Virgo Fortune in 1st house conjuncts virgo Mercury (ruler, joys) and Venus. Can they add some more? BTW, Aquarius saturn in 6th house aspects no planet.
 

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Hi,Curtis
Just purchased your Delphi Oracle, it's amazing!!! I'm so excited.
The transit Uranus in 9th house trines my ascendent Leo sun just these days. And the profection goes to my 1ST house this year. I'm becoming a little muscular and long trip is calling all the time.
 

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Hsn1983

Member
wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron? Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron?
Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me
INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO ATTACH A CHART
TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 :smile:
 

Hsn1983

Member
In my chart sun can be hyleg and alcocoden but mars is in the same sign aries is. Mars the alcocoden in this chart?
Thanks
 

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