Is the ASC only a mask?

Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Choe said:
And I need to add to this thread, I dislike that harsh slitting Sun vs Asc. Both are similar, both are outward.
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The Sun is extroverted/masculine but it's not "a mask" or anything shallow. The Ascendant isn't merely a mask either, it's our first experiences with anything, but it is a lot more "shallow" than the Sun. Outward things are real parts of our being. Extroversion is not in any way inferior to introversion or vice versa.
 
kimbermoon

kimbermoon

Well-known member
MaeMae said:
I don't believe it's mask. It's an orientation to how we approach the world separate from ourself. MC is how the world percieves us.
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I agree about your theory of orientation; I think that it is also our response to our subconcious conditioning especially from the parents in our early years and the subconscious imprinted reactions that have often become habitual. Calling it a mask is not to imply that we consciously and deliberately put on a disguise, most of it is a subconscious pattern that moderates our inner self to variable degrees; it is our first line of self-defense, where we have learned how to adapt to our physical and material demands.
Also if the Sun is closer to the Ascendant then it will be apt to have more influence on our persona.

Also the angular houses represent major developmental stages in our lives: in the 4th house we are being largely conditioned as to our reactions, our beliefs and values. Then at the age of 7, as we enter into the social arena, moving away from the parents, the energies are transferred to the Ascendant, where we begin to develop more of our own personality so as to be acceptable to the world. As the energy flows towards the 7th house around the age of 14, we begin to try to differentiate from our parents even more , represented by early rage against the parents and desire for independence [the teen rebellion is an aspect of the workings of Saturn]. Then at the age of 21, the energies have moved towards expression through the 10th where we will either meet achievement or failure which causes us to return back to our 4th house issues and try to sort through the baggage we have accumulated...and then the cycle, which is all part of the Saturn cycle, begins anew.
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
kimbermoon said:
[the teen rebellion is an aspect of the workings of Saturn].
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Interesting. Most people today say that Saturn represents, among other things, conformity, but I seriously doubt it means conformity in the sense of the word that most people think it means.

kimbermoon said:
Then at the age of 21, the energies have moved towards expression through the 10th where we will either meet achievement or failure which causes us to return back to our 4th house issues and try to sort through the baggage we have accumulated...and then the cycle, which is all part of the Saturn cycle, begins anew.
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What about the 7th house?
 
Moog

Moog

Well-known member
kimbermoon said:
I agree about your theory of orientation; I think that it is also our response to our subconcious conditioning especially from the parents in our early years and the subconscious imprinted reactions that have often become habitual. Calling it a mask is not to imply that we consciously and deliberately put on a disguise, most of it is a subconscious pattern that moderates our inner self to variable degrees; it is our first line of self-defense, where we have learned how to adapt to our physical and material demands.
Also if the Sun is closer to the Ascendant then it will be apt to have more influence on our persona.

Also the angular houses represent major developmental stages in our lives: in the 4th house we are being largely conditioned as to our reactions, our beliefs and values. Then at the age of 7, as we enter into the social arena, moving away from the parents, the energies are transferred to the Ascendant, where we begin to develop more of our own personality so as to be acceptable to the world. As the energy flows towards the 7th house around the age of 14, we begin to try to differentiate from our parents even more , represented by early rage against the parents and desire for independence [the teen rebellion is an aspect of the workings of Saturn]. Then at the age of 21, the energies have moved towards expression through the 10th where we will either meet achievement or failure which causes us to return back to our 4th house issues and try to sort through the baggage we have accumulated...and then the cycle, which is all part of the Saturn cycle, begins anew.
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That's very interesting... thank you Kimbermoon

[the teen rebellion is an aspect of the workings of Saturn]
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Saturn would be doing a half return (opposing the natal saturn) in those early teen years.
 
kimbermoon

kimbermoon

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
Interesting.
What about the 7th house?
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[FONT=DejaVu Serif, serif]my personal life experiences have taught me that Saturn is in fact the Great Taskmaster...it sets us up through challenges meant to incite our personal evolution, as such challenges are given to us for a reason, to discharge our personal karma and to learn through wisdom...it is also about the law of cause and effect; as above so below' It's 30 year cycle is a strong determinant of our developmental phases, and we are challenged in 7-year increments. Yes around the age of 14, Saturn is at it's opposition, thus is consistent with teenage rebellion...think about it...while our parents try to train us to conform, during the teen years we want to rebel in order to find our own self-autonomy; thus the conflicts agains authority, which Saturn also activates within us...[/FONT]

[FONT=DejaVu Serif, serif]what about the 7th house – this is where we tend to merge with others as we express our social selves. I see the Descendant as the Gateway of sorts, where we either feel impelled to move further out into the world [up through the 3rd quarter of the chart towards the MC]; or if we have experienced no support and encouragement through our peer relationships, there is often the a tendency to turn back to the self and focus more on developing our personal skills through the 6th house, experiencing romance and affection through the 5th and then back to our domestic roots and then the cycle begins again. As Grant Lewi documented the Saturn cycle is a highly significant timetable of our individual development...and every 7 years we get more testing to see how much we have learned...[/FONT]
 
Kannon

Kannon

Well-known member
socrates said:
If the ASC is our mask how come that even when alone I have the gemini tendency to be fidgety or unable to keep still,?
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No, the Asc is not only a mask. It is how the cosmic energies of the Sun and Moon of our birth charts are integrated into an embodied expression. Flesh, bone, spine, biology are not just 'mask.' The Asc is more than just persona or the wishful thinking of personal identity.

I don't know the answer to your specific question here, since I'm not seeing your chart. Just to say that the way we identify from within ourselves isn't for show or others' benefit.

Asc = "I am" point; basic modus operandi.
 
socrates

socrates

Well-known member
Kannon said:
No, the Asc is not only a mask. It is how the cosmic energies of the Sun and Moon of our birth charts are integrated into an embodied expression. Flesh, bone, spine, biology are not just 'mask.' The Asc is more than just persona or the wishful thinking of personal identity.

I don't know the answer to your specific question here, since I'm not seeing your chart. Just to say that the way we identify from within ourselves isn't for show or others' benefit.

Asc = "I am" point; basic modus operandi.
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well here it is
 

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Kannon

Kannon

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I can tell you that you are not Gemini rising. I know Gemini and air signs generally are associated with restlessness or fidgety tendencies, but there was no Incarnation window in the entire sign of Gemini for the date and location of your birth. Possible Ascendants are at 19 or 0* Taurus, and about 8 or 29* Aries. Mercury is closely conjunct Saturn, which means this fidgety behavior is coming from elsewhere, say contained Martial energy. However, you do have Moon opposite and ContraParallel Uranus.
 
socrates

socrates

Well-known member
Kannon said:
I can tell you that you are not Gemini rising. I know Gemini and air signs generally are associated with restlessness or fidgety tendencies, but there was no Incarnation window in the entire sign of Gemini for the date and location of your birth. Possible Ascendants are at 19 or 0* Taurus, and about 8 or 29* Aries. Mercury is closely conjunct Saturn, which means this fidgety behavior is coming from elsewhere, say contained Martial energy. However, you do have Moon opposite and ContraParallel Uranus.
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but my dad had just looked at the watch when he heard my first cry from the nearby hospital room
hes pretty sure it was 14.15
 
MSO

MSO

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If the ascendant is a mask, but represents the self, then wouldn't the 7th House be a more accurate portrayal of who you are around others?
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

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One must remember that the Ascendant is influenced by anything that comes in even the slightest contact with it or (any of) its final dispositor(s). Those things are not masks whether the Ascendant is or not.
 
serafin5

serafin5

Well-known member
Choe said:
I agree that the Sun could be more our outward mask,than the asc, as sun is a very public planet.

The asc is our character. Haven't you all noticed that when you wake up in the morning,the way one behaves is according to their asc? As the 1st house is early morning. And later, when they get dressed ,go out, they behave more like their Sun,or sun's ruler?

For example, Scorpio asc can be very dark after waking up,and generally they are slow wakers, as I suppose all water ascendents are.
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I agree with this; the Asc. is our first house. I've always thought a person is kind of a mixture of all three: the Asc, Moon and Sun. All the other planetary, house and aspects are revealed later as one gets to know someone deeper. I have also known certain people to be a bit more their moon sign, for example, or express more their rising sign. It all depends. Personally, I know that Scorpio is definately a viable and visable part of who I am.

For sure as a Scorpio Asc. I am NOT that great in the morning at all!

Cool Thread!
S5
 
Love2Know

Love2Know

Well-known member
I don't know apparently I can come off like a sweetheart cancer sun then more clownish always 'on' Leo. I come off more cancer personality than you can sterotype a cancer to act, I am pretty self sufficiant and self confident in my personality if someone said I was Leo or Gemini sun I wouldn't argue either. Taurus mc don't usually relate and met a few I wanted to strangle for being to touchy lolllllllll like I met several who said I was too 'insensitive' just cuz I didn't walk on eggshells around them, seriously 4 Taurus suns no joke they were all babyish. Though, they we're still ok with me"...small doses. Also I do tend to randomly make up songs or pitch movie ideas... They seemed uptight... It was theese specific people took themselves too seriously. Would get in bad moods easy no negative mood is worth more than 2 seconds.
 
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Love2Know

Love2Know

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Hah my parents didn't know it was 'wtf that was so long ago and the exact time was unimportant'as a response. I had to look through a box full of baby curls to find it, somewhat disturbing. Also I told my dad for astrology and he told me to stop practicing voodoo.....
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Love2Know said:
Hah my parents didn't know it was 'wtf that was so long ago and the exact time was unimportant'as a response. I had to look through a box full of baby curls to find it, somewhat disturbing. Also I told my dad for astrology and he told me to stop practicing voodoo.....
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Lucky then, that your mother at least kept that baby curls box Love2Know - but astrology as voodoo is an interesting interpretation! The general forms of astrology known and practiced in the West as well as India is based on Ancient Babylonian Astrology. I suppose your father regards astrology as 'superstition' :smile:
 
Kannon

Kannon

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian, I take your statement as a challenge, and accept it.

socrates, I know that this is taking the thread a bit off its original asc/mask theme, but since it is very relevant to the Asc and how we pinpoint a live one, I'm going into it.

First, it is very important to record the time of your birth, as your father did, but this time rarely equates to the correct degree of the Asc. The event we call birth, parturition (separation from the mother), gives only a starting place for finding out the correct Asc. First breath and parturition theories are just that - common sense theories that astrologers have accepted on faith and have defended without first putting to a real test. I have. I also have developed an alternate theory drawing from outside astrology to explain it. Most important to know is that our "births" are not actually pinpointed by exoteric events of the mother's body (parturition), though they are always in partnership with them. It is the moment of Incarnation, an inter-dimensional event, that sets the correct Asc. Two independent sources (Edgar Cayce readings on astrology) and Incarn astrologer John Willner create the framework for this.

Socrates, a number of astrologers could take your chart and each separately come to a consensus conclusion that your Asc is in Gemini around 2-3* -- and all be dead wrong. This would be due to relying on transits (and maybe progressions with fat orbs) measured in longitude only, ignoring the declinations. An Asc in longitude arc at 2GEM43 equates to about 20N40 in declination. You have Pluto at 20N08, which is close enough for cross resonance and would intensify any planetary energy through that area, since at the ends of declination North and South the planets slow down and stay longer in that area of 20-23*. You also have Mercury at 3* Aquarius, which can also create a cross resonance in longitude. I know something about these kinds of mistakes since I've made them with clients before. This is how I learned.

I guarantee you 100% that you do not have your correct, functional Asc anywhere in the sign of Gemini. You could keep the chart as it is and work with it that way, but when planets move through the early degrees of mutable signs you won't be getting angular transits to your Asc.

I have validation standards that I adhere to that set my work apart from 99% of other astrologers and from mainstream astrology. I don't know what your correct Asc sign is, since I know little about you, but I do know that it is not Gemini, and if you are willing I will put that to the test right here, pro bono, nothing for you to lose. I use the most stringent consistent validation standards in the field of astrology: http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/standards-for-the-validation-of-birth-horoscopes/

The 19*27' Taurus Asc [17N36] would be ContraParallel Jupiter, as well as trine Sun and Venus.
The 0*16' Taurus Asc [11N34] would be Parallel Uranus, ContraParallel the Moon, square Mercury and Saturn, as well as trine Uranus.
The 29*35' Aries chart would have basically the same aspects as a 0* Taurus Asc.
The 7*53' Aries Asc [3N08] would be sextile Mercury and Jupiter, square Mars, and quincunx Pluto.

Any astrologer who does a "rectification" for you that affirms the 2-3* Gemini Asc is simply creating a fiction for you, and for themselves.

Just in case you haven't read my thread on Asc signs:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25131
 
Caro

Caro

Well-known member
Kannon it is a good post.

It is making me question my own asc as Im scorpio rising(people refer to me as that ie the usual - mysterious / I do have that stare :ninja:etc)

yet my face shape fits the description of libra rising. even eye colour. Its round which I always think is unfortunate!!

I have neptune in first house so always felt that added to the mystery. Hence peoples inability to read me at all. Enigmatic - another word used.

however scorpio asc - mumbling I relate to this. although it trines merc in pisces _ I dont have a aconfident voice projection - my voice is low. Im terrible in the mornings - really like to be alone!!

but it makes me wonder, as too in using whole house I would be a libra asc with mars on asc!! then it would have progressed to scorpio within a few years of birth.

so Who am i!!!

maybe I need to go back to my chart and re look at it again.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Traditional Astrologers use Animodar and also Trutine of Hermes. Unsurprising that not everyone agrees as to the utility of either of, and/or, both of these methods http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=822 :smile:

Astrological software programmers do not necessarily always allow for 'sundial time' so, if necessary, then consult the Equation of Time in order to refine your time of birth and/or ascendanthttp://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/equation_of_time.html
dr. farr said:
I checked last year directly with the operators of astro.com and they said that they do not correct for LAT (local apparent time; sundial time)

I use Daily Sun Data tables (internet) for rectifying to Sun/Cosmic time, and that has always seemed to work very well.

In RU's chart, the Sun/Cosmic time is 11 minutes slower than civil clock time; therefore I rectify RU's given birth time (7:18 AM) for that day of birth, to 7:07 AM, which gives 21 degrees59minutes (as good as saying 22 degrees) Capricorn as the ascending degree.
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