Hyleg and Alcocoden

DreamingTheSeas

DreamingTheSeas

Well-known member
Omnisphericus,

I think Elvis Hyleg might be Mars and according to Bonati's method Moon is Hyleg.

When he died on Firdaria system he was in term of Node. I dont know how and if that makes any sence on the death thing.
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
DreamingTheSeas said:
Omnisphericus,

I think Elvis Hyleg might be Mars and according to Bonati's method Moon is Hyleg.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, according to Bonatti Moon can be Hyleg only if in angular or succedent house. In Elvis's chart is in 3rd (Cadent).


When he died on Firdaria system he was in term of Node. I dont know how and if that makes any sence on the death thing.
Click to expand...

Yes, Nodes (especially South Node) is indicator of death and malefic things.
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Differentia chart?

Baby diferentia (died one month after the birth).jpg

Bonatti differentiated 4 types of charts which he call them 'Differentia chart".

The 1st Differentia chart is a chart with the following conditions:
- Look at the main luminary of the chart (Sun/Moon)
- If the degree of this luminary, the degree of the Ascendant, both are in partile conjunction, square or opposition to a non dignified Malefic, and the rulers of both Luminaries are cadent.

2nd Differentia chart is the same as above but the aspect does not need to be partile (exact).

3rd Differentia chart is a chart without Hyleg.

4th Differentia chart are all other charts.

If the chart is 1st differentia, the baby will die before receive nourishment.
If the chart is 2nd differentia, the baby would die very shortly after receives nourishment (in a couple of days).
If the chart is 3rd differentia, the child would come to approximately 12 years of age.

The chart of the baby above should be 2nd differentia chart (the baby died after one month from fever).
But the 'rules' for 2nd differentia chart are not here.
So maybe the chart is 3rd differentia, i.e. does not have Hyleg.
But the chart have Hyleg according to Bonatti. The Moon is in4th (angular) in feminine sign Taurus, and is receiving aspect from Venus.

Rob Hand says: "If something is traditional doesn't automatically means its right, and if something is modern does not automatically means its wrong". (Speaking of the traditional techniques and approaches).
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Hmm it seems out that this chart is 3rd differentia.
According to other authorities, Moon bellow the horizon can not be hyleg.
So we go to the Sun. Sun in masculine quarter bellow can be Hyleg but does not receive aspect from its rulers.
Next, the syzygy is conjunctional so we go with the Ascendant and the ascendant also does not receive aspects.
The rulers of the syzygy degree does not receive aspect from their dispositors too.

So, the chart does not have Hyleg and it is 3rd differentia.
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
pisces_girl said:
I have SN in the 1st and had a car accident when directed Ascendant was in the SN five years ago. I was hit from behind by a van so heavily that my car came out of the motorway at high speed.

Fortunately, all I got was a harsh whiplash injury. I felt so lucky that nothing more severe had happened, but I have since then never got rid completely of the pain in my neck muscles. What I mean by it is that it has had a permanent negative consequence in my body, as signified by the 1st house.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear that pisces_girl :/
Did you had some aspects from benefics on the time of the accident?
 
Last edited:
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
As for the chart of the baby above, here's what Bonatti is saying about the 3rd Differentia chart:

"The third (differentia) is of those (natives) who take nourishment and live for a month or for years but do not extend past the years of infancy and if he does survive them still he will not attain to long life".
Click to expand...

The baby lived for a month.
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
The 4 Differentia Bonatti

Here's Bonatti's summary on what distinguishes the differentia charts:

"How the four differentia of Nativities ought to be looked to in order."

"The first of these will be that of abortions, those born dead or half-dead or who do not live long enough to be nourished".

"The second (differentia) is of those who take nourishment, but in whom life does not last long enough that any sensible utility results".

"The third (differentia) is of those (nativities) who take nourishment and live for a month or for years but do not extend past the years of infancy and if he does survive them still he will not attain to long life".

"The four (differentia) is of some of those who take nourishment and life lasts in them until they attain to maturity and sometimes attain to old age. And to this (differentia) is subordinated the instances of those who attain to very great length of life and die from old age - although this happens to few".
Click to expand...
 
DreamingTheSeas

DreamingTheSeas

Well-known member
Omni and everyone else,

As i read every time a little more for Hyleg, i come to conclusion that ancient and medieval authors excluded a 12th house Hyleg. Can't have an Hyleg in this house. Am i wrong?
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Calculating the Almudebit

Lets now examine the method of calculating the 1st differentia chart:

We will use the chart of the baby gaven above (the chart is not first differentia but will use the chart as an example of calculating as I do not have a chart of 1st differentia at the moment).

We calculate the following points:

1. Ascendant 29Sagittarius / term ruler Mars
2. Ruler of the Ascendant - Saturn 22Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
3. Rulers of the triplicity of the Ascendant (Fire):
- Jupiter 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
- Sun 01Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury
- Saturn 22Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
4. Seventh house 29Gemini/ term ruler Saturn
5. Ruler of the Seventh House - Mercury at 7Capricorn/ term ruler Jupiter
6. Fourth House 23Aries/ term ruler Mars
7. Ruler of the Fourth House - Mars at 6Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury
8. Tenth House at 23Libra/ term ruler Venus
9. Ruler of the 10th house - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
10. Sun at 01Aq/ term ruler Mercury
11. Ruler of the Sun - Saturn at 22 Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
12. Moon at 0 Taurus/ term ruler Venus
13. Ruler of the Moon - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
14. Rulers of the Triplicity of the Sun (Air):
- Mercury at 7 Capricorn/ term ruler Mercury
- Saturn at 22 Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
- Jupiter 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
15. Conjunction (New Moon prior the birth) at 23 Capricorn/ term ruler Saturn
16. Part of Fortune at 0Libra/ term ruler Saturn
17. Ruler of the Part of Fortune - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
18. Jupiter (because its benefic) 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
19. Venus (because its benefic) 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
20. Moon (as nocturnal planet) at 0Taurus/ term ruler Venus
21. Venus (as nocturnal planet) at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
22. Mars (as nocturnal planet) at 6Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury

Table of points:
almuten oo.jpg

As we can see, Saturn (with most points) is the Almuten of these places.

Lets now look at the summary (given by Bonatti) for first differentia:

1. The Almuten of the important points to be cadent.
(IF we take the Whole Sign Houses then the Almuten - Saturn is Cadent in Aquarius)

2. Any of the malefics should impede by degree (partile).

3. Impeded degree that rises (to be impeded by non dignified Malefic through conjunction, square or opposition).

4. The positions of the Luminaries are impeded. (in the case of the baby's chart that we are examining the luminaries are impeded by a non dignified Malefic - Mars, though not in partile, which would give 2nd differentia).
Exists two opinions on this matter reproduced by Bonatti. The one is from Ptolomy, the other is from the 'other ancients'.
Ptolomy thinks that the main luminary should be impeded and the rulers of the of the degree of the luminaries should be cadent, and the Ascendant degree should be impeded.
According to the 'other ancients', the ruler of all the three triplicities (of the Ascendant or of the main luminary) are cadent; and the luminaries are cadent; and their rulers are cadent and the place of the syzygy is cadent.

In conclusion we would say that the chart of this baby is difficult.
It has impeded luminaries by a non dignified malefic (Mars).
The rulers of the triplicity of the Ascendant (Sun-Jupiter and Saturn) are in Cadent houses. Sun is in Aq - a cadent house in the Whole Sign system (Zoller suggests to use both - WS and Quadrant system of houses in calculating these techniques, because they came from earlier hellenistic sources where they used WS), Saturn as Almudebit (Almuten of all those places we calculate) is in Cadent Aquarius. Jupiter is in cadent quadrant house. Next, the rulers of these triplicity rulers are cadent: Saturn - ruler of the Sun is in Aquarius and Mars as ruler of Jupiter's Aries is cadent in Aquarius.
 
S

sprinthrussfed

Well-known member
According to Ptolemy, if Sun is present in 1st, 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th houses, then it will be the hyleg. If Moon is present in these places then it will become hyleg. If neither, then the cusp of the Ascendant will be the hyleg.

According to Bonatti, if Sun is present in 1st, 10th or 11th houses, then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Sun is in 7th, 8th or 9th houses and it is a masculine house, then it becomes hyleg. If Sun is not hyleg then think about Moon. If Moon is in 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th houses then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Moon is in 2nd, 5th, 8th or 11th house which is a feminine house then it becomes hyleg.
Click to expand...


don't you agree with them?
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
sprinthrussfed said:


don't you agree with them?
Click to expand...

I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.
 
S

sprinthrussfed

Well-known member
Omnisphericus said:
I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.
Click to expand...
how many methods are there? which method did you use in your first post?

which method do you think is the most workable?
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
sprinthrussfed said:
how many methods are there? which method did you use in your first post?

which method do you think is the most workable?
Click to expand...

In my first post I have used the method of summary from all the authors (of what almost all authors agree).
I think this is most workable. I have listed the rules of this method in my first posts on the thread.
Bonatti's method also gives good results.
I'm aiming to try the Abu Ali's method in near future. I will post my findings.
 
T

terrcolomba

Banned
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 years
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
terrcolomba said:
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 years
Click to expand...

But how accurate is the chart?
I can't find the chart on astrodatabank. There is no sense to look at wrong chart and check the validity of these techniques. We need to have precise birth details.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Omnisphericus said:
But how accurate is the chart?
I can't find the chart on astrodatabank. There is no sense to look at wrong chart and check the validity of these techniques. We need to have precise birth details.
Click to expand...
Omnisphericus here's some info on Scotty Beckett - apparently he suffered "a severe beating" two days prior to his death but there are no details as to who inflicted that beating. No time of birth is give on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Beckett :smile:

Scott Hastings "Scotty" Beckett (October 4, 1929 – May 10, 1968) was an American child actor. He starred in the Our Gang and Rocky Jones, Space Ranger series. The last ten years of Beckett's life were filled with stories of divorce, violence, drugs and arrests. After more or less giving up show business, he tried selling real estate, then cars, and twice enrolled at universities with the intention of becoming a medical doctor. In 1961, Beckett married Margaret C. Sabo, she would remain with him until his death.

On May 8, 1968, he checked into a Hollywood nursing home, needing medical attention after suffering a serious beating. He died two days later at age 38. Although pills and a note were found, no conclusion was made by the coroner as to the exact cause of death; however, some speculate he overdosed on barbiturates or alcohol. Leonard Maltin wrote: "It was a particularly sad end for someone who, as a child, had shown so much easy charm and talent". source: wikipedia
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Omnisphericus here's some info on Scotty Beckett - apparently he suffered "a severe beating" two days prior to his death but there are no details as to who inflicted that beating. No time of birth is give on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Beckett :smile:

Scott Hastings "Scotty" Beckett (October 4, 1929 – May 10, 1968) was an American child actor. He starred in the Our Gang and Rocky Jones, Space Ranger series. The last ten years of Beckett's life were filled with stories of divorce, violence, drugs and arrests. After more or less giving up show business, he tried selling real estate, then cars, and twice enrolled at universities with the intention of becoming a medical doctor. In 1961, Beckett married Margaret C. Sabo, she would remain with him until his death.

On May 8, 1968, he checked into a Hollywood nursing home, needing medical attention after suffering a serious beating. He died two days later at age 38. Although pills and a note were found, no conclusion was made by the coroner as to the exact cause of death; however, some speculate he overdosed on barbiturates or alcohol. Leonard Maltin wrote: "It was a particularly sad end for someone who, as a child, had shown so much easy charm and talent". source: wikipedia
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info.
It would be great if we can find accurate birth details of this man and check his chart for the Hyleg and Alcocoden, but also for some signs of violence in it.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
terrcolomba said:
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 year s
Click to expand...
terrcolomba. I draw your attention to the following important proviso emphasised by Omnisphericus at the commencement of this thread :smile:
Omnisphericus said:
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.
Click to expand...
Clearly, your example of the death of Scotty Beckett is a good illustration of someone whose death was hastened by a severe beating - the obvious mystery is how long Scotty Beckett could have lived if he had not sustained that severe beating
Omnisphericus said:
Thank you for the info.
It would be great if we can find accurate birth details of this man and check his chart for the Hyleg and Alcocoden, but also for some signs of violence in it.
Click to expand...
I shall do some research - however he could be one of those cases similar to Charlie Chaplain - having no certain time of birth. Charlie Chaplain is a complete mystery, even the FBI/MI5 et al could not discover any record of his birth!:smile:
 
Top