Hyleg and Alcocoden
- Thread starter Omnisphericus
- Start date
tsmall
Premium Member
Sun or PoF, doesn't that make Jupiter Alcocoden?
Jupiter1st, I would caution you not to place too much importance on anything related to longevity that you may or may not see in your chart, for all the reasons everyone has already mentioned on this thread. No one can predict length of life. Period. Going back and looking at the charts of the deceased is an interesting intellectual exercise, but keep in mind that when we are working with several methods proposed by different astrologers, and an established TOD, it is easy to "make" the method fit.
Jupiter1st
Member
Thanks for your help guys but I'd like to know which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden in my chart. Since my Sun is unaspected , I think it may be the ascendant. Mars trines it as the triplicity ruler. So he can be alcocoden. Mars is angular and he can give 66 years. South node conjunction will subtract 16 years which makes 50. Mercury is highly detriment. It will at least subtract 20 years. It then makes 30. Jupiter trine will add 12. It makes roughly 42. Mercury can subtract his middle years as months, yet Jupiter can add his middle years as months as well. So they may compansate each other. Yet, I'm not so sure.
Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.
Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Thank you! I have version 7.0.6, it is the same procedure as you've mentioned.
Well, I'm not sure about the validity of this calculation. I think that when using Bonatti's calculation does not count the 'must have an aspect' rule, or maybe uses the WSH aspects.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Omnisphericus - Skyscript has these interesting comments on the issue
QUOTE CLELIA ROMANO
"I do not agree that the Sun must to be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years.
If you do not believe in the rules, why to study them?
Masha´allah says that a wise man can not ask questions in his own behalf: now I can see how right he was"
QUOTE PETR RESPONSE TO CLELIA'S COMMENT
"I agree fully.
jupiter1st We discussed the question of length of life in April. Your life potential (which gives alcocoden) is high. Better to be interested in life than death"
source: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6459&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Ptolomy
Clelia Romano in her article 'Longevity' says:
Clelia Romano in her article 'Longevity' says:
DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Venus is 5th house Placidus
Today it is common knowledge that much of Tetrabiblos was collected from earlier sources; Ptolemy's achievement was ordering material systematically, showing how the subject could, he thought, be rationalized. Explanations are provided for astrological effects of planets, based upon effects of heating, cooling, moistening, and drying. Ptolemy thought that astrology was like medicine, that is conjectural, because variable factors such as race, country, and upbringing of a person affects an individual's personality as much if not more than the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets at the precise moment of their birth, so Ptolemy saw astrology as something to be used in life but in no way relied on entirely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy (scroll down for paragraph heading "Astrology")
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
“Diana was born in the late afternoon on 1 July 1961, in Sandringham, Norfolk” according to wikipedia - rather vague http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales
In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!
Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently:
"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."
"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5
Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS
In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!
Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently:
"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."
"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5
Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS
here is my simple thesis :
if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers -
if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers -
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Reminder to all: Omnisphericus commenced this thread with a traditional analysis of Whitney Houston's AA rated chart and IMO has delivered convincing results!
tsmall
Premium Member
umkay, we want AA rated charts, and even those might have questions?
Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com
19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56
Anyone up for this?
Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com
19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56
Anyone up for this?
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Planet in 6th house can not be Hyleg according to all the authors.
Sun in 8th unacceptable according to Ptolomy, Moon below the horizon not acceptable. There is no planet that rules at least 3 dignities in the degree of Sun, Moon, pre-natal new moon and Ascendant, so Ascendant is Hyleg in this chart yes.
According to the quote I quoted by the author from angelicus merlin you don't look for at least 3 dignities, but you look for the Almuten of those places.
But I was thought that you need to look for at least 3 dignities by one planet, and if that planet is in hylegical place in the natal chart you take that planet. Ptolomy's text is not clear here so it is a matter of debate.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
I've used the summary of all H & A techniques and it seems out that it works that way. Maybe we should stick to that summary instead of trying all methods one by one (a time consuming thing) which leads to frustration and unconvinced results.
I'm eager to try Ptolomy's method though but it is too complicated, it requires dealing with numbers, mathematics of directions and knowledge of which particular directions to use. Ptolomy did not use Alcocoden, but was directing the Hyleg toward the 'killing' places (Dc-Ic-Ac).
I suggest to leave all the individual methods and to return to the 'all authors summary' method and Alcabitius house system which seems out that worked well in the Whitney's chart.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Here's the chart of JJ. I used the birth details given in astrodatabank.
In my next post I will give the summary of finding the Hyleg and Alcocoden as given in the angelicus merlin group.
Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Hyleg Summary of 'All Authors"
Here's the summary given by the author on angelicus merlin group:
Here's the summary given by the author on angelicus merlin group:
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Omnisphericus
Well-known member
Summary all authors Janis Joplin's chart
Lilly used 5 degrees of orb for the planet near the house cusp to be in that following house. I suggest to stick to this rule because, I think, most of the authors are using it.
JJ's chart is a day chart.
Sun in 12th house - eliminated.
Moon below the horizon in the 5th house is potential hyleg.
Lets try.
Moon is at 8Cancer.
Now we look for the almuten.
(Btw I suggest to use dorotheus triplicities and egyptian terms. Why? Because Robert Zoller is using them, this is the best explanation I can give)
Domicile ruler Moon = 5 points
Exaltation Jupiter = 4 points
Triplicity Venus = 3 points
Term Venus = 2 points
Face Venus = 1 point (I must point out that some authors disregard 'Face' to be dignity, but we will use it only as an additional points giver. If the planet ruler only the Face we would not take it as a potential alcocoden, it is really weak dignity, except if it makes a partile aspect and have some other accidental dignity as being on MC for example).
So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.
Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)
Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.
Look that 12th house ruler exactly on IC.
Lets look at the Lots.
When we look to the lots its better to use WSH.
She has Lot of Fortune at 5Leo, Lot of Spirit at 15Virgo and Lot of Basis at 5Aries.
If Lot of Fortune (the Ascendant of the Moon) is the First House (Leo) than 8th house would be Pisces (ruler Jupiter near the Hyleg) in the house of Pleasures (5th) and in watery sign (The official cause of death was an overdose of heroin, possibly combined with the effects of alcohol).
Jupiter, the ruler of the 8th sign (Pisces) from Fortuna (Leo) is in 12th sign with the ruler of the 12th sign Moon, bith Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart.
The Lot of Basis is in the 8th sign from the Lot of Spirit (in Virgo).
In the natal chart.
Look how that Saturn on IC is making partile sextile to Lot of Fortuna and Lot of Basis.
Sun, the ruler of the Fortune in 12th.
It seems out that all these pointers has diminished the years of the Jupiter (45.5). If she did not use drugs and alcohol and lived unhealthy life, maybe she would lived more than 45 years.
Here is I think our free will coming to surface. I believe we are free to direct the planetary pointers in our birth chart to more positive way of expression or a negative expression. I think that we bear responsibility for our inner growth and development of our spirit/soul. Destiny gives us the Hyleg and Alcocoden, gives us a material with which we can work, but it is up to the free will what we actually do with that material.
My conclusion here is that the Alcocoden is Jupiter and he would give her his middle years if she lived more healthy life, but she didn't! So we can not blame the chart or the Alcocoden for diminishing the years of life.
But of course, we can try some other possibility for Hyleg and Alcocoden in her chart.
Lilly used 5 degrees of orb for the planet near the house cusp to be in that following house. I suggest to stick to this rule because, I think, most of the authors are using it.
JJ's chart is a day chart.
Sun in 12th house - eliminated.
Moon below the horizon in the 5th house is potential hyleg.
Lets try.
Moon is at 8Cancer.
Now we look for the almuten.
(Btw I suggest to use dorotheus triplicities and egyptian terms. Why? Because Robert Zoller is using them, this is the best explanation I can give)
Domicile ruler Moon = 5 points
Exaltation Jupiter = 4 points
Triplicity Venus = 3 points
Term Venus = 2 points
Face Venus = 1 point (I must point out that some authors disregard 'Face' to be dignity, but we will use it only as an additional points giver. If the planet ruler only the Face we would not take it as a potential alcocoden, it is really weak dignity, except if it makes a partile aspect and have some other accidental dignity as being on MC for example).
So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.
Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)
Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.
Look that 12th house ruler exactly on IC.
Lets look at the Lots.
When we look to the lots its better to use WSH.
She has Lot of Fortune at 5Leo, Lot of Spirit at 15Virgo and Lot of Basis at 5Aries.
If Lot of Fortune (the Ascendant of the Moon) is the First House (Leo) than 8th house would be Pisces (ruler Jupiter near the Hyleg) in the house of Pleasures (5th) and in watery sign (The official cause of death was an overdose of heroin, possibly combined with the effects of alcohol).
Jupiter, the ruler of the 8th sign (Pisces) from Fortuna (Leo) is in 12th sign with the ruler of the 12th sign Moon, bith Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart.
The Lot of Basis is in the 8th sign from the Lot of Spirit (in Virgo).
In the natal chart.
Look how that Saturn on IC is making partile sextile to Lot of Fortuna and Lot of Basis.
Sun, the ruler of the Fortune in 12th.
It seems out that all these pointers has diminished the years of the Jupiter (45.5). If she did not use drugs and alcohol and lived unhealthy life, maybe she would lived more than 45 years.
Here is I think our free will coming to surface. I believe we are free to direct the planetary pointers in our birth chart to more positive way of expression or a negative expression. I think that we bear responsibility for our inner growth and development of our spirit/soul. Destiny gives us the Hyleg and Alcocoden, gives us a material with which we can work, but it is up to the free will what we actually do with that material.
My conclusion here is that the Alcocoden is Jupiter and he would give her his middle years if she lived more healthy life, but she didn't! So we can not blame the chart or the Alcocoden for diminishing the years of life.
But of course, we can try some other possibility for Hyleg and Alcocoden in her chart.
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Omnisphericus
Well-known member
I think Saturn on IC in partile aspect to the fortune and basis is already a sign for worry.
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).