A Natal chart for fun.

Re: more thoughts, to Bob

wilsontc said:

- The Ascendant, Descendant, Nadir, and Midheaven together form a Mystic Rectangle (strong energy), pulling together all parts of the person

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Checking the astro. dictionary it read:
Definition of Nadir: The lowest point below the Earth, or opposite point to the Zenith. It should not be confused with the Imum Coeli. v. Celestial Sphere.

So what is the degree of the nadir-zenith and could you explain the difference between this and the IC-MC, please ?

Friesiangal.

correction, to Frisian

Frisian,

I didn't know this either (obviously! )! So I looked around and found a nice diagram that explains it all very well:
http://www.astrocollege.com/campus/dictionary/images/FinalGraphic.rtf

Some people have drawn a distinction between the Zenith and Nadir used in astronomy and the Zenith and Nadir used in astrology. But, since astrological measurements relate directly to astronomical measurements, it makes sense to me to use the correct astronomical term.

I have edited my original post and my website to remove references to "Nadir".

Learning all the time,

Tim

Hi everyone,

Quote; Frisiangal:
Hi again,
Can I put forward a thought I have often had regarding how character and circumstances act out in a chart? If there is an abundance of a particular element, would this not show in the manner through which life is lived and experienced? E.g. I have a heavy Earth element so I experience life through hard facts and/of tangible events, even with the planets in fire, air and water. Would someone with a heavy water signature still experience planets in earth, air and fire through their emotional and sensitive side?

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In a short answer Frisiangal I would say yes, but it would be the personal planets and angles that would be most obvious.
Long answer:
To answer this question Frisiangal I think it might be slightly subjective because the manner in which we all read a chart is directly related to how we see things/life in general. Trying to part the subjective from the objective my opinion would be that an emphasis on an element would definitely be visible in the character of the person. In the case of an overemphasis of earth the sense of touch would be very strong in the manner which a person lives. To put this into context, say a strong earthy person were buying some clothing, it may look nice to them but they would like/have to feel it which can make them go off it, if it did not feel good too. Applying this scenario to the mind an emphasis in earth would show that thinking is based upon a system of rules or repeating patterns, though not necessarily legal rules or religious rules etc just a repeatable cycle; I think this is why earth element people are more prone to depression and melancholy, though water would come a close second but for different reasons.

I think this is where the elements need to be looked at carefully. For example; say someone had a chart where they had the Sun, Mars and Jupiter in the 1st or 10th house very close to an angle; because these planets are naturally fiery in nature they would show a fiery temperament quite openly. But, if those planets were in earthy signs I would then say that the fire is in their belly, so to speak; not as obvious as those same planets in fire signs, more in their physique, strength and determination in the manner of a good athlete. As well as the elements highlighted by the planetary positions sometimes it is easy to forget the elemental nature of the planets themselves, though I have to admit it is another grey area in astrology. Until PH came along with Schmidt’s ‘system of Hermes’ and other newly translated material I thought the elements were fairly straight forward, but upon learning new (ancient) techniques and a couple of books by modern astrologers whom I regard as well read, I had to re-design my personal elemental approach to include seasons, solar, lunar and planetary phases (not phasis, that is another concept), the local weather (at birth) and one or two others which I will demonstrate sometime on the forum.

Quote; Frisiangal:
The example chart is very Earthy, so a Saturn in Pisces might not be so much 'spiritual' as a tangible bottle of booze, and a Jupiter in Aquarius not so much 'great humanitarian activity' but a physical rebellious disregard of the law, if you know what I mean.

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As we are coming close to revealing the identity of the chart it would be fair to say ‘spot on’ and nicely observed.

With the above quote in mind, in what manner might this person have employed themselves? For anyone who might like to apply any predictive techniques to the nativity, I will give a couple of dates that were important in the life of this person:

12th July 1963; 7th October 1965; 6th May 1966

Quote; Flea:
[SIZE=+0]Martin Luther King was the taurus rising cap MC, and similar pattern with the Pluto cancer I mentioned. I thought it was interesting to compare with Frisiangal's King Carlos.

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Another interesting nativity thanks flea, that Jupiter/Pluto connection often comes up where forcing ones faith or religion on others is concerned. Frisiangal highlighted Carlos with a strong hint that there was only a matter of days between the respective birth charts of Carlos and the mystery chart.

Quote; Tim:
Values and relationships are very important to this person
- Venus (physical, also personal values/relationships) is OOB

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Well spotted Tim, I overlooked this myself by only using my Delphic Oracle. That OOB Venus also has quite a tight contra-parallel with Pluto which is quite relevant to this individual, that is, if you have not guessed who it is already.

All:
Unless there are any objections I will reveal the chart identity later today at around 7.0pm GMT or as close to that as I can. I have a client booked until 6.0pm which might overrun a little. Thanks to everyone for taking part in what might be a very good way for us all to interact in a topic where everyone has a valid opinion. It has truly been interesting; everyone that took part had at least one area or opinion spot on. Another thing that pleasantly surprised me was; I expected at least one person to assume this was a fine upstanding character because of the emphasis of trines in the chart. In my experience I have come to think of trines like motorways (freeways/interstates) and the planets like vehicles, if the vehicle is broken down it does not matter how good the roads are that run past it. The reverse of this analogy is if the vehicle is a fully loaded Russian T-95 tank with a rebellious 12 year old at the wheel the last thing he needs is a freeway right outside his door.

When I reveal the chart owner later I will add a small piece using the Lot’s (Arabic parts) relevant to the life of this individual. After this and before the next mystery chart (Sunday) it might be interesting to look into the mind of our mystery subject.


Thanks again to all those who made this an interesting thread.


I will post mystery chart 2 on Sunday evening GMT


Good wishes to all


Bob
[/SIZE]

Hi Bob.

When you post the second chart, any chance you could send me the data to cast my own horoscope?

I wanted a go at this, but I fear you may post your answer before I'd finished so I'll wait until the next one.

Is it possible to know the sex of the person in the next chart?

Last little thing I noticed just today was Victoria Beckham having a tight saturn mars conjunct in 11 opposite neptune in 5th with Pluto tight on the IC. Again similar pattern to this chart but very different life outcome I suspect... She has been so much in the news that i thought it was worth mentioning.

Love & Light
Flea

Where did you obtain a birth time?

As far as I'm aware, Victoria's birth time has never been sourced.

Chart potential, to Frisian

...Can I put forward a thought I have often had regarding how character and circumstances act out in a chart?...The example chart is very Earthy, so a Saturn in Pisces might not be so much 'spiritual' as a tangible bottle of booze, and a Jupiter in Aquarius not so much 'great humanitarian activity' but a physical rebellious disregard of the law...

Click to expand...

Frisian,

I think the chart shows the potential for the person and not the actuality. So when we don't know what a person did with their chart energies chart, it is very difficult to guess how their energies might come out or did come out. For example, the "spiritual" energy you mention has tremendous potential and is easily abused. On one side its associated with mysticism, drugs, alcoholism, etc. On the other its associated with sloth, laziness, etc. Making a "spiritual" path requires the person to actually work to develop their spiritual potential...not to simply take the much easier escapist path.

And so people frequently fall off the spiritual path: they become drunks, dopers, fanatics, etc. This does not mean that the chart energy showed that they were going to become these things, it simply showed that these were all easier choices for them than doing what is best for them and others. For there IS a right way and a wrong way to use chart energy: self or other empowerment use of our chart energy is the right way, and self or other destructive use of our chart energy is the wrong way. So Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the right way: helping and uplifting themselves and those around them. While Charles Manson, Hitler, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the wrong way: to try to become gods and crush everyone and everything in their path.

One thing we CAN get from a chart of people on the wrong path is a sense of compassion and loss, that the great, powerful potential of the chart energy could be so abused and perverted...hurting the chart owner and everyone around them.

Spiritually,

Tim

Hi everyone,



The owner of mystery chart 1 was the main player in a duo that picked up the label of ‘The Moors Murderers’ Ian Brady and Myra Hindley (pictured above). Together they coaxed young children into going with one or both of them, sometimes they were taken to a deserted spot on Saddleworth Moor or back to Brady’s house where they were tortured and killed in horrendous fashion. In court neither of them showed any remorse and I think the Judge branded them as the two most evil people he had ever come across. Hindley died aged 60 in prison while Brady is still alive in Ashworth Psychiatric Hospital where in 1997 he decided he would starve himself to death; this went to the high court where the doctors requests to force feed him were accepted. As a consequence of this he wrote to a national tv station (bbc) asking for his right to die by offering to blacken Hindleys name further (as if that is possible) by telling the truth about what he told her to say at the trial so she would get a lighter sentence. Below are some excerpts from a letter he sent to the BBC TV station in the UK.

“First accept the determinant. Myra Hindley and I once loved each other. We were a unified force, not two conflicting entities. The relationship was not based on the delusional concept of folie a deux, but on a conscious/subconscious emotional and psychological affinity. She regarded periodic homicides as rituals of reciprocal innervation, marriage ceremonies theoretically binding us ever closer. As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed. Existential philosophy melded with the spirituality of death and became predominant. We experimented with the concept of total possibility. Instead of the requisite Lady Macbeth, I got Messalina. Apart our futures would have taken radically divergent courses.”

“The reason why the trial judge made a distinction between Myra Hindley and myself. Before entering the witness box, I instructed both her counsel and my own to ask me specific questions designed to give the fullest opportunity of providing a cover for Myra. This managed to get her off on one murder charge. I also told her to adopt a distancing strategy when she went into the witness box, admitting to minor crimes whilst denying major. When, upon my advice, she appealed against sentence on the grounds that she should have been tried separately, Lord Chief Justice Parker denied the appeal, stating that, far from being disadvantaged by being tried with me, it had been to her great benefit as all my evidence had been in her favor. For twenty years I continued to ratify the cover I had given her at the trial whilst, in contrast, she systematically began to fabricate upon it to my detriment. Therefore, when I learned from the Panorama programme this week that she was now claiming I had threatened to kill her if she did not participate in the Moors murders, I considered that the lowest lie of all. The fact that she continued to write several lengthy letters a week to me for seven years after we were imprisoned contradicts this cynical allegation. Perhaps her expedient demonomania now implies that I exercised an evil influence over her for seven years from my prison cell three hundred miles distant? In character she is essentially a chameleon, adopting whatever camouflage will suit and voicing whatever she believes the individual wishes to hear. This subliminal soft sell lured the innocent and naive. As for the parole board, I advised her to build on three pillars: educational studies, powerful contacts and religion. She did. I myself have never applied for parole and never shall, which is why I can afford the luxury of veracity and free expression.”

“In the aforementioned Panorama programme, former Home Office Minister A. Widdicombe stated there are twenty-three prisoners in the UK who will never be released. Why has the public heard so little of them? In this and other special hospitals run by prison warders there are also patients no-one has heard of, who have been rotting behind bars for forty and fifty years for relatively minor offences. That puts the present loud debate over Myra Hindley in proper perspective, and crystallizes the reason why I have long advocated UK prisoners and patients in special hospitals should have access to voluntary euthanasia.”

Ian Brady

Ian Brady was born on 2nd January 1938 in the slums of Glasgow Scotland. He started life without a father and in fact he never knew his father at all. Because his mother Peggy could not afford to feed and clothe him, she put him up for unofficial adoption at around four months old. She regularly visited him up until he was around 12 years old but apparently he never knew she was his mother. His step-parents described him as a lonely difficult child prone to temper tantrums and slow to integrate. He would bully the smaller children and capture and torture small animals, in some very bizarre ways. After developing an unhealthy interest in the Nazi party and hanging out in bad company it was only a matter of time before stealing become a way of life for him. At around 16 years old his behaviour worsened and his crimes progressed to burglary, before long he was brought before the law court and only narrowly escaped a custodial sentence by agreeing to reside with his real mother and stepfather Patrick Brady.
While at home his interests broadened, the Nazi party was still very appealing to him and he read a number of books related to the third Reich, he also began to read literature on general sadism and especially the writings of the Marquis De Sade.
When he was 17 his criminal activities eventually led him into Strangeways prison where he resided until November 1957. True to his nature he could not fit in very well and made enemies in Strangeways that caused him to isolate himself from the other prisoners whenever he could. Consequently he endured a difficult time from the other inmates which caused him to suppress even more anger at the world for not protecting him as a child. After his release from Strangeways Brady tried his hand at several manual jobs but he could not keep them. He met Myra Hindley while he was working as a stock clerk in Manchester in 1961, it was reported that the first movie he took her to see was ‘The Nuremburg Trials’, not the most romantic of movies. Being her first lover Brady quickly took control of her innocence by encouraging her to read the works of Hitler and the Marquis De Sade. She became quickly indoctrinated into Brady’s extremist views and was soon dressing to please him and posing for pornographic pictures. Gradually Brady fed his outrageous views to the naïve Hindley who believed everything he said, even when he told her “rape and murder were the supreme pleasure” she unquestioningly accepted it.

Who knows how many more poor children would have have suffered at the hands of Brady and Hindley had it not been for Hindley’s 17 year old brother-in-law David Smith going to the police. On the 6th October 1965 he called in at Brady’s home just in time to witness Brady killing Edward Evans with an axe, then finishing him off by choking him with electrical flex. He told the Police that as soon as Evens was dead Brady and Hindley joked about the mess and told him that this was not the first they had killed, there were others buried on the moors. Smith helped clean up and concealed his terror for fear of being next if he showed any signs of weakness he might have been next. He got out of the Brady house as soon as he could, rushed home and told his wife, then contacted the Police.
The Police went around to Brady’s house and found Evans body upstairs in the bedroom. Brady claimed it was the result of an argument between himself, Smith and Evans that got out of hand. He denied any involvement by Hindley who remained at large for a further 4 days. It was when the Police searched her car that they found a document describing in detail how the two of them planned to carry out the murder that gave away her involvement in the Evans murder. During a search of the house the Police discovered a ‘left luggage’ ticket for a locker at Manchester Central Station which when searched revealed “sadistic gadgets, pornography, including photographs of Lesley Ann bound and gagged in Hindley’s bedroom. A tape recording was also found, on which a little girl could be heard crying and begging for her life. Her mother Ann Downey was forced to identify the voice on the tape as that of her 10 year old daughter.” Hindley had recorded the entire rape and torture of Lesley Ann on tape. It is still widely believed that there were other missing children from the same areas they used that have never been found…

Some important dates are listed below. I may not have time this evening to add my small Lot's delineation which I will add by tomorrow evening.

Victims =

12th July 1963: Pauline Reade aged 16 – Went missing
11th November 1963: John Kilbride aged 12 – Body discovered on 21st October 1965
16th June 1964: Keith Bennett aged 12 – Went missing
26th December 1964: Lesley Ann Downey aged 10 – Naked body discovered on 10th October 1965
6th October 1965: Edward Evans aged 17 - Murdered

Arrested:
Brady 7th October 1965
Hindley 11th October 1965

Trial:
27th April 1966

Convicted:
6th May 1966

Died:
Hindley 16th November 2002


Please feel free to leave any astrological insights.


Good wishes


Bob

Dear Lord Bob,I honestly didn't see this coming!I had no idea who the two of them were until I read the description.What a horrible thing.I can't even think more about it.Please chose someone a little bit "lighter" for your next mystery chart.

And I though he was a philosopher.I couldn't have been more wrong.

Composite chart, to Bob

Bob,

You said:

...a duo that picked up the label of ‘The Moors Murderers’ Ian Brady and Myra Hindley...Together they coaxed...As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed...

Click to expand...

I think a composite chart would be more appropriate for this analysis. The birth chart is the chart of the person by themself, acting by themself. When they start to work with another person, the individual energy goes away and the composite energy is born.

Compositely,

Tim

P.S. Please post the birth information for both people so we can also do a composite chart for them.

Hi Lissa,

There are several reasons for using this person as a first chart. We all focus on the good, and for the most part we try to only notice the 'positive' traits when delineating a chart. As in life good and bad do exist and deserve equal observation. Let me give a small example why understanding life's darker sides are just as important. Suppose you have an elderly relative who needs live in care and you were able to erect their chart, by spotting the warning signs it may be possible to avert some punishment or even death that our loved one might suffer. There are many signs in Brady's chart that show how his disturbed maltreatment of all Gods animals would be likely to manifest.

I need to jump to Tim's comments now:

Quote; Tim:
Frisian,

I think the chart shows the potential for the person and not the actuality. So when we don't know what a person did with their chart energies chart, it is very difficult to guess how their energies might come out or did come out.

Click to expand...

To a certain extent I do agree that in many cases it might be difficult to show how a person may conduct themselves. However, in ancient times astrology was able to predict just these sorts of things. Valens for example has a system that would show how eminent a person might be in their lifetime. Another system could show to what class a person was born into. Yet another system would show criminal tendencies. Again, I would agree that there would be some interpretive difficulties which would make some charts harder to validate than others but, I have applied many of these techniques with a fair amount of success to people from all walks of life.

Quote;Tim:
For example, the "spiritual" energy you mention has tremendous potential and is easily abused. On one side its associated with mysticism, drugs, alcoholism, etc. On the other its associated with sloth, laziness, etc. Making a "spiritual" path requires the person to actually work to develop their spiritual potential...not to simply take the much easier escapist path.

Click to expand...

I agree there can be a fine line between the two extremes, even both at the same time; sinner and saint etc. The way I see it; one has to have a disposition towards being able to commit atrocities which to illustrate I would paraphrase what many astrologers have quoted and believe myself. "Everything that can or will happen in a person's life is written in the natal chart." If it is not in the nativity it cannot or will not happen. Would you agree with this Tim?

Let me give a brief understanding of how I would approach an investigation into criminal behaviour.

1. Natal disposition of planets that are very strong but tainted towards power, manipulation and control. The basic natal strength of the character.
2. Thought is the basis for all action. I would look to see what occupied the mind of the individual.
3. Mercury is a significator of the mind, the left side (logical side) of the brain in general. Is the person logical; is their mind influenced by negative emotions.
4. Jupiter is significator of ones moral code; what sort of moral code does the native have. Jupiter also shows our connection with our own personal God. Is he a God fearing Jupiter or predisposed to not give a monkey's?
5. What self control does the nativity show; Saturn would reveal the answer to this.
6. Mercury afflicted by Mars has been described as a criminal inclination for thousands of years, and still holds true today in my experience.
7. Severe emotional and/or mental disturbance generally.
8. Actions, ambition and drive.

These are just a few of the notes I would make on first investigation of a nativity. Now, I am not saying that any one of these traits would show this type of behaviour but, if each added up to the other it would be a pretty safe judgement to say this person would commit crimes. The Hellenistic 'Lot' list also gives indications for being confined for crime as opposed to being confined due to ill health.

Quote; Tim:
And so people frequently fall off the spiritual path: they become drunks, dopers, fanatics, etc. This does not mean that the chart energy showed that they were going to become these things, it simply showed that these were all easier choices for them than doing what is best for them and others. For there IS a right way and a wrong way to use chart energy: self or other empowerment use of our chart energy is the right way, and self or other destructive use of our chart energy is the wrong way. So Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the right way: helping and uplifting themselves and those around them. While Charles Manson, Hitler, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the wrong way: to try to become gods and crush everyone and everything in their path.

Click to expand...

I agree whole-heartedly with almost everything here except for when you mention 'the chart energy' this is because in my opinion it takes many energies to say the same thing before it can be safely deduced.

Quote; Tim:
One thing we CAN get from a chart of people on the wrong path is a sense of compassion and loss, that the great, powerful potential of the chart energy could be so abused and perverted...hurting the chart owner and everyone around them.

Click to expand...

Yes, again I agree 100%. I am only adding that if we hypothetically had a system for criminal traits that had 100 enquiries and 98 came up supported then it would be safe to deduce it was the chart of a criminal. Of course, it could be wrong but it would be unlikely.

Quote; Lissa:
Dear Lord Bob,I honestly didn't see this coming!I had no idea who the two of them were until I read the description.What a horrible thing.I can't even think more about it.Please chose someone a little bit "lighter" for your next mystery chart.

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You did see this little snippet:

The Moon is in debility and Venus isn't also in a very emotional sign,so the person was probably very guarded about his/hers emotions,perhaps even a little bit cold...

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This is one sign where some debility is revealed. You also mentioned the 9th house concerning law as well as philosophy, another good observation.

I can honestly say that this is the only chart I will use of this nature, but I did want to turn everyone's head left & right because famous Generals etc may have 'some' of the negative traits highlighted here; Brady's chart has many of them which was why I chose it.

Quote; Libra20:
OK, I was intimidated by all the good astrologers here and deleted my post at the beginning of this thread. However, looking back, I think I may have stumbled on something...

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That is a shame you felt a little intimidated, I was hoping that all our opinions were equal, and in fact it turned out that way. Libra20, I wish you had left your post because it did show some insight which is hard to discuss now. Hopefully, the next 'and much brighter' chart will encourage you to go with it and don't criticize yourself, you done ok.

As did;
Frisiangal, wintersprite, flea, natasha, Tim and anyone whom I have overlooked. Looking back It was probably a very difficult chart because no-one would want to shout these indiscretions and Tim; what can I say, you even saw some of the best in this person...Nicely done, though I think you were aware that this person was a little hostile with that mention of Venus.

All in all you all done remarkably well with the little information I gave at the beginning. It gave me a good idea to give some information up front for the next chart. As this one was a little sad I will give a clue to the next chart; it will be the chart of a person completely opposite to this one.

What I was really hoping to achieve with this chart was the investigation of a disturbed mind. In my opinion, some are born but most seem to be created by society. I worked on a psychiatric evaluation team for a while so it is something I have experience with.

If anyone was offended by this chart/person I am truly sorry, that was not my intention at all.

I will explain some of my observations tomorrow.

Thankyou to all who took part, everyone showed a lot of courage and insight.


Good wishes to all,


Bob

Hi Tim,

Quote:
I think a composite chart would be more appropriate for this analysis. The birth chart is the chart of the person by themself, acting by themself. When they start to work with another person, the individual energy goes away and the composite energy is born.

Compositely,

Tim

P.S. Please post the birth information for both people so we can also do a composite chart for them.

Click to expand...

That is a very good idea Tim, I agree a composite would shed light on their partnership but I am not too sure I agree with your last sentence. For example; I have been married nearly thirty years now but I still maintain my individuality within our marriage, as does my wife. In any marriage only one person usually wears the pants, a composite would only show their combined energies acting as one, and not how the individuals are functioning within the partnership.

Anyway, the data I have for Myra is 23 July 1942 at 2.45am Manchester, England. The chart gives a Gemini ascendant, Sun/Mercury & Jupiter in Cancer...Brady wore the pants in this relationship without a doubt.

Maybe you could do a mini composite and I will do two mini natal charts?


Good wishes


Bob

P.S. Can I tempt anyone to add anything... I did have the misfortune of meeting Myra in person, I will add this event to my mini reading.

Very nice this thread !

I have a request though:
PLEASE add LILITH , as given at astro.com , here..... I can't do without (her).

Also: a bit of trial and error will be enough for me to know what date this person is born, and probably anyone could find the location as well, so my question is: why not put the birthdata here ????

Thanks.

The date of may 1966 took me to the right/wrong place. It was a chart to play with your mind I think, which is why you chose it Bob, to challenge our perceptions. Challenge it did, so thankyou. I read a little of what Majorrie Orr wrote about him, saying that it was not an obviously psychotic chart. I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.

I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.

Love & Light
Flea

Choice, to Bob

Bob,

The way I see it; one has to have a disposition towards being able to commit atrocities which to illustrate I would paraphrase what many astrologers have quoted and believe myself. "Everything that can or will happen in a person's life is written in the natal chart." If it is not in the nativity it cannot or will not happen. Would you agree with this Tim?

Click to expand...

Bob, I think we can do ANYTHING. However, we can't do everything GREAT. So we can play music as much as we want...but if musical genius potential is not in our chart we can't be a musical genius. We will be OK, but not GREAT. This is my thought about free will and fate: we have potential to do anything (free will), but potential to only do some things very well (fate).

However, I do not believe that just because there are indications of something (good or bad) in the chart means that it will happen or we will cause it to happen. Somewhere in life we make a choice, based on the way we look at the world and the situation we live in. I refuse to excuse homicidical child torturers by saying "their chart made them do it."

Using this basis of belief is what has lead to some of the greatest genocides of history: these people are going to be evil...so let's kill them now. I know you didn't say that, but implying that someone has an "evil chart" or is "98% evil" is saying a similar thing. It says, "I can figure out who is good or bad in their life (based on their charts)." The next step is suggesting we do something about it in advance.

This way of looking at people completely eliminates the person's choice. Someone who is doing torturing and murdering has to have a point where they understand that this is NOT socially accepted behavior. That they are NOT behaving in a way which others would agree with. That they are deliberately destroying societal standards with their behavior.

While most of us will not be torturers or murderers, we sometimes do self-destructive things, because (unlike with the torturers or murderers) there is never anything in our life to indicate there is a different, better way. So because of our lack of self-awareness we continue to make the same mistakes.

So we need to develop our self-awareness. Once a person understands themselves and who they are then they have a choice to behave in a new way that better helps them grow and develop. I think astrology is a powerful tool to help develop this self-awareness and so I encourage everyone to understand themselves through their chart, so that they open themselves up to more choices and more options.

I do not judge who is good and bad based on their chart...but by their choices and actions.

Actively,

Tim

then and now, to flea

flea,

You asked:

I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.

Click to expand...

I think that in ancient times there were less choices. If you were a king your life was pretty well laid out in front of you. And if you were a commoner, no one cared about your life. Since there were few career choices for king, there were a limited number of things that could happen to them, so the stress in the chart indicated danger and easiness in the chart indicated opportunity.

Today life is much more complicated, and our choices are considerably greater than they were in ancient times. So we have many more possible ways to use our energies. In order to reach out to these new ways of using our energies, I use modern astrology which, while less precise than ancient astrology, allows considerably more possibilities for life development.

Looking at the present,

Tim

Composite, to Bob

Bob,

You said:

...I am not too sure I agree with your last sentence. For example; I have been married nearly thirty years now but I still maintain my individuality within our marriage, as does my wife. In any marriage only one person usually wears the pants, a composite would only show their combined energies acting as one, and not how the individuals are functioning within the partnership...

Click to expand...

These people clearly were not "individuals" in their action: they plotted together, stalked together, handed off victims to each other, etc. They did these atrocities TOGETHER. Ian's history indicates that he never did anything remotely approaching these horrors until he met this woman. Clearly no one "wore the pants" in this relationship...they each had one of their legs in the pants and wore them together.

Pantsing,

"Tim

Composite chart, to Bob

Bob,

Attached below is the composite chart:


I looked at the composite chart: Mars (being, also anger) conjunct (energy is combined with) Ascendant (self) conjunct (distantly) Uranus (friends, also rebellion) trine (energy goes easily with) Leo (self-expression, also children) modifying Pluto (transformation, also power, sex) focused in the 4th house (home) conjunct (energy is combined with) IC (inner world). I think this describes the potential for the types of atrocities that you described. Note that in Ian's chart Mars doesn't connect with Pluto or Uranus, only in the composite chart is this powerful force supplied. Also, Gemini (sign of short trips) modifies Ascendant (self) in the composite chart, and the couple routinely took short trips with their car (also Gemini ruled). Moon (home) is very close to the 8th house (transformation, also power, sex).

In all this I do NOT say that because of this chart the couple did these atrocities, I just suggest that (if all the birth data is correct), because of the challenging combination of the RELATIONSHIP the couple was able to do horrible things that, separately, they couldn't have done.

Taking a trip to the dark side,

Tim

At the risk of being called, oh I don't know... um, objective? ( I suspect it will be worse than that )

We really need to watch our own perceptions and projections. When Lissa wrote how she was wrong to see this person as a philosopher.... Lissa, I don't think you were necessarily wrong. First, we need to check our own definitions of what a philosopher really is. We see that Brady did take interest in Fascism and the Nazi regime. We also see where Hindley speaks of being indoctinated into Brady's world perceptions. In Brady's own words,

" She regarded periodic homicides as rituals of reciprocal innervation, marriage ceremonies theoretically binding us ever closer. As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed. Existential philosophy melded with the spirituality of death and became predominant. We experimented with the concept of total possibility."

This sounds like someone who has studied "darker" philosophies and applied them to his life and to that of his student, Hindley.

There was also mention that the work of Mother Teresa was "good" spiritual doing.....

Well...... Mother Teresa brought a foreign religion to a region. On the surface, yes, absolutly she has done good feeding and helping the poor. But there is an element of cohersion that these very people would now have to accept a foreign religion and with it, the inclusion of the opposition to birth control. How many more were born into poverty and relient on the church for their existance?

NOTE, I am not trying to start a religious discussion!!! I am just pointing out that we need to be a little more objective in what we believe is good or bad.
As Astrologer's it is not our place to judge, just interpret.

TK

Hi eveyone,

Quote; starnoud:
I have a request though:
PLEASE add LILITH , as given at astro.com , here..... I can't do without (her).

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Thankyou for your comments, I will include the Moon’s Apogee and Perigee for anyone who wishes to use them but I have to be careful about including too many points and parts in order to keep the chart easily readable for everyone. This has given me the idea of posting three or four natal charts of the same person in varying formats so we can each choose our preferred method, I just need to get the size right.

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Also: a bit of trial and error will be enough for me to know what date this person is born, and probably anyone could find the location as well, so my question is: why not put the birthdata here ????

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You have highlighted a little dilemma here. There are those who will apply some trial and errors to obtain the birth date (location may be difficult to do though) which is fine, but if they publish it or hint very obviously at the chart owner I will have done a great deal of work for nothing. I have toyed with the idea of posting the birth data and giving a brief account of the persons history in order partially highlight the type of life the chart owner had, the feedback from all of you will help me find a good format that suits everybody. Thankyou for your input, I look forward to your future comments.

Quote; Flea:
I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.

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Thankyou for your kind remarks Flea. I think Tim has raised many of the points highlighting the differences between some of the destiny’s we may have had in ancient times compared to those we have in modern times (and given me about two hours work answering his observations…thanks Tim, lol). Along with Tim’s comments I would like to add a little of how I see the fate and free will concept in modern times. Do the charts still hold true for us today…Absolutely, the only differences are more choices and technological advances giving us greater scope. Are we more able to change our destiny’s…I would say that we do have more control over our destinations today, though I would add that our destiny’s are so tied into our health, wealth, place of birth, social status and a multitude of other considerations that although there may be more opportunities for us, we remain creatures of habit. It is these habits that probably define our fates more than anything else, as the old saying goes ‘if you stick your finger into a naked flame, don’t be surprised if you get burned.’ I have the firm belief that the more self aware one becomes, the more control one has over their ever-changing, variable destiny’s, kind of like a psychological alchemy.

Quote; Tim:
Bob, I think we can do ANYTHING. However, we can't do everything GREAT. So we can play music as much as we want...but if musical genius potential is not in our chart we can't be a musical genius. We will be OK, but not GREAT. This is my thought about free will and fate: we have potential to do anything (free will), but potential to only do some things very well (fate).

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I think we are both talking from the same page where in principle I agree with what you are saying. However, if I could example mentally retarded people, they cannot do ‘anything’ that is beyond their mental ability. There are many unfortunate folks who will need dressing, feeding etc for their whole life so their potential for doing anything is limited according to their ability; the same could be said for physical handicaps too. For example someone with no legs will never rival David Beckham because he would be lacking some vital equipment. It could be argued that false legs etc could allow ‘some’ football ability but that would be diversifying from the point that our abilities are deeply personal on thousands of levels that cannot just be switched on because we will them to. There are illnesses such as Dyslexia (I was sorely tempted to write ‘dislekseea’) where certain numbers and symbols become confused in the brain. It is within the grasp of psychological astrology to recognise cognitive flaws in the mental, emotional or spiritual nature of a troubled soul and then help the person reintegrate them harmoniously. In order to do this it is absolutely crucial that subjectivity (our personal ideals) be removed from the diagnosis wherever possible by cross-referencing our findings with each other (I am taking here about psychiatric evaluation in an institutional environment).

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However, I do not believe that just because there are indications of something (good or bad) in the chart means that it will happen or we will cause it to happen. Somewhere in life we make a choice, based on the way we look at the world and the situation we live in.

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It is not ‘indications’ in a planet, house, aspect sense, it is the entire judgement after ‘all’ the facts have been considered. In your opinion was Ian Brady a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ person? I would categorically state he was a ‘bad’ person, and many others would agree with me I am sure. Can this be seen in a nativity… Yes, if one is adept at reading a chart thoroughly. I would be more than happy for someone to give me 5 charts of saints and five charts of sinners; I will spot them with ease. Bare this in mind for a future game if you like. The reason I used Ian Brady’s chart is that it clearly shows a severely disturbed mind, harmful in many ways to himself and others. Not the ‘potential’, the absolute astrological prognosis that this person would harm others for his own pleasure. I expect you will disagree with this but that is fine, it does not make me think any less of you, and I’m sure you feel likewise. Our main difference here is that you believe it is not possible to tell how a person uses their energies and I say that when all the habits, repeating cycles and drives are fully assessed I believe it is possible in most cases.

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I refuse to excuse homicidical child torturers by saying "their chart made them do it."

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As do I. In my opinion the stars do ‘not’ compel, neither do they impel, they merely reflect the actions of the earthly inhabitants in the sky. The stars do ‘not’ make anyone do anything but they do capture the essence of our soul and earthly qualities at our moment of birth. Some murderers are born, others are made, but the potential has to be there to start with.

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Using this basis of belief is what has lead to some of the greatest genocides of history: these people are going to be evil...so let's kill them now. I know you didn't say that, but implying that someone has an "evil chart" or is "98% evil" is saying a similar thing. It says, "I can figure out who is good or bad in their life (based on their charts)." The next step is suggesting we do something about it in advance.

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Now Tim, you need to give yourself a little slap on the wrist. I take it one of your references here are to Hitler’s orders to kill the Jews? Beliefs to not cause genocides, people do. Do I think Hitler was bad…No; do I think he went over the top and had the power to do so…Yes. You might ask why would I think Brady was bad and Hitler not, this will have to wait until another time. I am not offended by your implication in the last two sentences above but, there is ‘no’ next step…Who on earth does have all the answers? The next step in my mind is putting people in suitable jobs, giving them suitable teachers, finding suitable partners, giving them the necessary tools to enhance their future and much more; is this not what psychological astrology tries to do?

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This way of looking at people completely eliminates the person's choice.

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I don’t see how you came to this conclusion, people are being judged good and bad every day without their choices being affected. What you seem to be implying is that astrology would be used universally to control everybody’s lives, personally I think no matter how much astrology becomes accepted that will never happen. Judges choose, probationary services judge, social services judge, parole board’s judge. How would you feel about sitting on a parole board and allowing a convicted child killer to go free because ‘you thought’ it would be safe to free him. After which he goes straight out, buys a gun and starts picking off children in a school yard. Now, go back to the parole hearing where now you have astrological skills and this persons chart. If you could then be fairly sure this person is going to be the cause of much strife, would this be a reason to use the chart as help, and keep him locked up?

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While most of us will not be torturers or murderers, we sometimes do self-destructive things, because (unlike with the torturers or murderers) there is never anything in our life to indicate there is a different, better way. So because of our lack of self-awareness we continue to make the same mistakes.

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Are you implying that we all have the traits or the psychology to torture and murder children? I see a huge difference between people who steal to live and feed their loved ones and those who are disturbed enough to torture and kill, this takes a special kind of person that is ‘not’ in all of us.

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So we need to develop our self-awareness. Once a person understands themselves and who they are then they have a choice to behave in a new way that better helps them grow and develop. I think astrology is a powerful tool to help develop this self-awareness and so I encourage everyone to understand themselves through their chart, so that they open themselves up to more choices and more options.

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I absolutely agree 100%

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I do not judge who is good and bad based on their chart...but by their choices and actions.

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In training for psychology and psychiatric degrees the students evaluate each other, they are often amazed to realise their own shortcomings can be so easily seen by a trained eye. With no disrespect intended Tim, have you ever had a psychological evaluation, if not, have you ever had you chart ‘fully’ investigated from a psychological perspective to highlight your own areas where you could improve? The reason I ask is that before we judge others in any shape or form we should know where our own thinking or judgement may be impaired by subjectivity. There are several areas I avoid giving judgement because the activation of certain stressful memory engrams can induce poor judgement. I am also very careful about activating them in others because ‘self awareness’ cannot be handled by everyone, this is why we have so many drunks and drug addicts. Self awareness deals with the conscious and the unconscious. In Jung’s terminology the 12th house deals with the collective unconscious, the entire knowledge of mankind thrown into one big unconscious soup. There is not a mind on this planet that could handle that amount of knowledge.


I will have to address your other posts later because I have some engagements this evening.


Best regards


Bob