Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

greybeard said:

I am not so sure I agree with Vettius Valens on this one, great astrologer that he was notwithstanding. Valens was the first astrologer to mention and describe [Anthologies, Bk.III, Ch. 2] the use of a quadrant system of house division (the Porphyry -- Valens wrote some 150 years prior to Porphyry) which he ascribes to an earlier, now unknown, astrologer by the name of Orion.

Click to expand...

Practicing astrologer Vettius Valens precisely recorded the techniques of astrologers whom he himself referred to as 'the Ancients' - and Vettius Valens lived almost two thousand years ago therefore the techniques he chronicled are Ancient indeed

So when Valens wrote:

JUPITERASC said:

Vettius Valens – Anthologies Book II, Riley trans., p.38 writes http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf :

Quote:
“If the sign of the new or full moon or the ruler of this sign happens to be in the Ascendant or at MC, the native will be fortunate”

Click to expand...

Vettius Valens was chronicling a technique learned from his own astrological predecessors

greybeard said:

Well, shucks. I don't relish being admonished by the moderators, no matter how gentle and kindly the admonishment. Besides, you'll most likely tell me (or secretly think) my "astrological calculations" are way off base. But so far, no one else has taken the time and trouble .... We might recall that the Moon is the primary indicator of our mode of perception (she is absorptive, and rules "impressions"), and that "Perception is reality."

Click to expand...

Ha, are you suggesting that no one chose to "take the time and trouble" because they didn't wish to be harbingers of gloom and doom?

I just had an epiphany, that Capricorn moon is indeed my mother, as I suspected. I am aware of most of the things that you mentioned about the Capricorn moon, but it never occurred to me that I always disengaged from her story of being in the middle of five and unloved by her mother, my grandmother.

Thinking back, the only way to make my life picture coherent was to block out the Capricorn part of my mom, the conservative, disciplinarian, taskmaster veneer that clothes a highly creative, warm, playful, and proud individual. Her family dynamic is much more complex than this, and I have her to thank for for so many things.

This moon, itself inconjunct to Jupiter, does not understand the jovial side of my father, the eternal traveler (my dad had been to close to 200 countries) and explorer (almost by profession), with never a worry whatsoever for tomorrow. Only his vision counted, and the earth always provided. He dragged me to every place he could, but mom was more home-bound (by her lack of interest and purported busy-ness; in fact, she's unable to enjoy herself outside the realm of music, which is also her profession, until this day). I even failed to notice until today the mutual reciprocity between Saturn in Leo and Capricorn on the 5th house...

Sun and Moon trine. Despite major difference in worldviews, my parents managed to live harmoniously together until the end.

My mental energy (Mercury) is spent balancing two extremes without any apparent conflict. My Libra stellium is literally in the middle of these forces: Sun and Moon, Mars and Venus, Saturn and Jupiter...

The Sun and Asc in Virgo, symbolizing drudgery and duty (which I shun), but also synthetic thinking and expressive prowess (Mercury in Libra is taxed in all directions of thoughts, balancing, juggling with apparent ease between languages, cultures, different media, points of view). I look as if I'm really adroit, but in fact, something is amiss. The Sun (Virgo) and the Moon (Capricorn) are both in consciousness's blind spot. Their purpose are a bit undecipherable to the native...

Which is why I originally posted this thread: why do I not understand Virgo and Capricorn as (supposedly) constituent parts of my persona?

And what lesson is it trying to tell me?

That's good JupASC....I am still not certain I agree with that particular aphorism. It holds true in the present case, but the horoscope clearly indicates "a fortunate birth" without it.

If I find a horoscope that in its wholeness indicates a life of poverty and hardship, I think it would be foolhardy to predict a fortunate life based solely on the syzygy (or sign thereof) being on the Ascendant. I learned long ago to accept aphorisms with a grain of salt, and to test them judiciously before relying on them.

I predicted a fortunate birth, to a prosperous and privileged family background, based entirely on other chart factors. I did not even notice the prenatal New Moon until after I had done so. As far as I can tell from a perusal of previous posts, no one had mentioned this family background, yet it is crucial to any full understanding of the life situation and path of destiny of the native. The moment of birth says "birth to privilege" and this circumstance is determinate of the destiny. A person to the manor born must of force hold a view of life entirely different from we who are made of common clay, and this fact shapes the life.

When the Duchess of Cambridge is photographed near-nude on a French beach it results in a lawsuit for invasion of privacy. Had the subject of the photograph been a fishwife the constable would have arrived shortly to haul her away in chains for indecent exposure. Justice is not quite so blind as we like to pretend.

When I was a lad in the US Navy, the captain stopped the ship in mid-Pacific and allowed us an "over-the-side swimming party" 500 miles from the nearest dry land; the nearest land was only 3 miles away, straight down. A whaleboat carrying a sailor with an M-1 carbine was lowered to protect the swimmers from sharks, and the ship sat quietly on the peaceful sea awaiting our return. It was a wonderful experience. The same experience -- swimming in blue water 500 miles from land -- is not the same experience at all if it happens because your ship was torpedoed and went down under you. The comparison illustrates the difference between being born an aristocrat and being born a plebe.

How do you go about reading a book, perhaps an exciting adventure story?

One page at a time, front to back.

Life is an exciting adventure story, for each one of us who live. Today you are on page 371. It may be that the meaning of it all, the lesson to be learned, does not become apparent until the last page, page 1293 (this is a Russian novel). And sadly, you are not allowed to skip pages. Ain't that a bummer? Might I suggest you enjoy page 371 to the full and not worry about page 1293 until you get there?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.... What profit hath he that worketh in that wherin he laboreth? I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.... I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life. And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labor, it is the gift of God." Ecclesiastes 3

The past is beyond change, the future may never come. Today is all there is. Live it and rejoice. You are who you are, and what you are, now, in this very moment. You can be nothing other than that, not now. What is to come will throw light on your path in its due time. A flower unfolds as morning becomes evening.

greybeard said:

That's good JupASC....I am still not certain I agree with that particular aphorism. It holds true in the present case, but the horoscope clearly indicates "a fortunate birth" without it.

If I find a horoscope that in its wholeness indicates a life of poverty and hardship, I think it would be foolhardy to predict a fortunate life based solely on the syzygy (or sign thereof) being on the Ascendant. I learned long ago to accept aphorisms with a grain of salt, and to test them judiciously before relying on them.

Click to expand...

Don't know anything about new moon syzygy and how to check this unfortunately. I was born around daybreak, but I don't have the hospital records. This time was recorded by my mom, and according to her, it's 5 am sharp. I would need a bunch of official records to be able to access my birth data at the hospital. Maybe when the time is right, the hospital birth time will be revealed to me...

Thank you for everybody who contributed to this thread. I've had a series of lengthy lucid dreams, almost as if the interpretation of my chart has activated something dormant in me. Some of the interpretations are only beginning to come together and make sense. As you see, I have many "blind spots."

Far East, the syzygy is simply the New Moon or the Full Moon immediately before birth. In your case the New Moon occurred at 2 degrees 22 minutes of Virgo, which puts it right on the putative Ascendant at 3 Virgo 03.

If the time was recorded by your mom, it is likely that she placed some importance on it, and even though she was busy with other matters at the time, is probably very close if not exact. You could have been born 14 minutes earlier and still Virgo would be the Ascendant (with Leo rising for the two hours or so before that.) The meridian axis (MC & IC) changed signs only 3 minutes before 5 a.m. Unless you plan on doing some very fine predicting of your future, I would accept 5 a.m. as a "good" birth time -- it will serve you well enough in understanding yourself. Jupiter right on the MC is a very appropriate symbol for what little I know of your life; it fits (but that is very subjective.)

I have a Virgo Sun in the 9th house, right underneath Pluto, sextile Neptune in the last degrees of Libra in the 11th house. Sagittarius rises with Saturn loosely conjunct the Ascendant and my peregrine Moon is in Capricorn near the end of the first house.

There are few real similarities between my chart and FarEastUranus', which isn't surprising. I'm 18 years older than she is and I daresay I'm a different person now than I was at her age. Even so, I'll offer a little contribution to the discussion.

My Capricorn Moon, and greybeard's excellent description of it, seems to be a terrific description of my own mother. I have no difficulty admitting that I grew up in privileged comfort; it did not reflect the cruelty and violence underneath the surface appearance of our household, particularly after my father died. While the Moon in Capricorn is frequently described as lacking in emotion, detached and potentially void of empathy, my own observation of others and reflection on myself is that there are excellent reasons for a young child to be suspicious of others' emotions as well as to be anxious about or uncertain of emotions in her- or himself.

Virgo and Capricorn are earth signs. Earth is the only genuinely safe place for a human being. We cannot live in the air, the fire or the water. Earth sustains, supports and protects us and when under threat we, like other animals, "go to ground." We are made of earth, which may be one reason why earth signs aren't particularly admired by many people and why we often try to disparage or even reject earth planets and points in our horoscopes. Even so, in earth we may hide or bury parts of ourselves; one day we will be consigned to it permanently. [Virgo may be the least well understood sign in the zodiac, but that's a discussion for another day. ]

Neptune sextiles my Sun and I know that, at some points in my life, under its considerable influence I have been much less honest or reliable than I would ever have admitted. Neptune's gift of illusion and deception is very seductive. It's a blessing when it enhances imagination; I do believe I have richly benefited in this. But it also makes it difficult for me to see myself accurately. Saturn in my first house sadly dulls my Sagittarian Ascendant. I am much too critical of myself, more hard on myself than is right. Neptune helps me project that critical attitude onto others, to imagine that their love for me isn't real, can't be trusted or is simply a polite cover for more honest criticism. Confusingly, its illusions have sometimes encouraged me to think that others were far better, more honest, reliable, safe or trustworthy than they really were. I was always the last to know the truth. One of my life issues has been to learn to appreciate how and whether others actually care for me.

I'm glad that Neptune is only in sextile to my Sun. When the aspect is square, the propensity to self-delusion is greater and so more difficult to deal with since it's hard to see in oneself. Neptune's fog often blinds us, first.

One of the great things about the earth signs is that they are fundamentally honest when left to their own devices. But if an earth planet is afflicted by Neptune, shame is nearly always part of the deal. Fiery exuberance, airy expansiveness and watery depths consume or dissipate shame in their own ways. In earth, it can only be buried. The trouble is that buried things have a way of coming to the surface eventually. Pluto delights in supporting the unearthing.

Thank you Greybeard.

I really appreciate your walking through my chart for me. You said things that initially I didn't want to see or hear, but I learned a lot. It's a good balancing effect as my Jupiter tends to make me see everything in an overly positive light. This is why my mom said she always had to exercise discipline and discouragement as her main methods of educating me, otherwise I'd be up to the roof...

It's also comforting to know that the birth time will not affect too much my chart interpretation. I was really concerned about basing presumptions on the wrong premise.

Finally, true to the Chinese proverb: "No discord, no concord," I hope to learn much from you in the future.

"Neptune's gift of illusion and deception is very seductive. It's a blessing when it enhances imagination; I do believe I have richly benefited in this. But it also makes it difficult for me to see myself accurately. Saturn in my first house sadly dulls my Sagittarian Ascendant. I am much too critical of myself, more hard on myself than is right. Neptune helps me project that critical attitude onto others, to imagine that their love for me isn't real, can't be trusted or is simply a polite cover for more honest criticism. Confusingly, its illusions have sometimes encouraged me to think that others were far better, more honest, reliable, safe or trustworthy than they really were. I was always the last to know the truth. One of my life issues has been to learn to appreciate how and whether others actually care for me." -- Peregrine Moon

Peregrine Moon is beautiful. Every time you speak, m'lady, I get chillls and my heart beats faster. When you speak I listen. What a gentle soul.

Far East, read very carefully what Peregrine Moon has said. Not just the quoted paragraph, but the whole post. There is much there that will be of use to you; she knows how to make the bitter herb taste good.

"I have no difficulty admitting that I grew up in privileged comfort; it did not reflect the cruelty and violence underneath the surface appearance of our household, particularly after my father died. While the Moon in Capricorn is frequently described as lacking in emotion, detached and potentially void of empathy, my own observation of others and reflection on myself is that there are excellent reasons for a young child to be suspicious of others' emotions as well as to be anxious about or uncertain of emotions in her- or himself. " In your case, Far East, Moon is squared to Pluto...when I see that aspect in a chart my reaction is "Ouch. My heart goes out to you."

But observe your chart. There are two planets above the horizon. All the rest are contained by (lie between) Sun in Virgo (Earth) and Moon in Capricorn (Earth). You have Sun square Neptune, both angular. She brought you down to Earth. Whatever you feel about her (you won't say what you feel, [You are too Chinese to do that] but it shows between the cracks)....

Let me tell you a story. Oh boy, here goes the old man with another story. I despised my mother. She wasn't cruel and hard, but she was never a mother. Not in my eyes. When I was somewhere around 40 I noticed good old Pluto marching toward my natal Moon, and I thought I should go visit my mother, whom I hadn't seen or talked to in years. Whatever is between us, I thought, she is still my mother. I spent a whole day with her, talking quietly, the last couple of hours sitting on a boulder in the middle of Alum Rock Creek beneath the shade of the tall alders and sycamores. I took her home and drove away down that dark lonesome highway. Somewhere out there in the middle of the night I was overcome...there was a sort of "descent"...with the realization that I had forgiven my mother. It did not come about through conscious thought or effort. It just happened. Powerful, powerful. And in that same moment I also realized that in forgiving my mother, I had forgiven myself. It was not my mother who needed my forgiveness; it was me. But you can't forgive yourself until you forgive others. "Forgive, that ye be forgiven... Forgive them, for they know not what they do." Mom was just being who she was. She could be no one else. I never saw her alive again after that day. Sitting on that boulder in the middle of the creek, she gave me a precious gift which I carry with me to this day. She said, "There ain't nothing but love."

Peregrine_Moon said:

One of the great things about the earth signs is that they are fundamentally honest when left to their own devices. But if an earth planet is afflicted by Neptune, shame is nearly always part of the deal. Fiery exuberance, airy expansiveness and watery depths consume or dissipate shame in their own ways. In earth, it can only be buried. The trouble is that buried things have a way of coming to the surface eventually. Pluto delights in supporting the unearthing.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Peregrine Moon. I would love to see your chart.

I see that my earth signs with sun and moon occupy fire houses (1st and 5th), and incidentally, Neptune is in the 4th (a water house) Sagittarius, on the bottom of the chart. I do relate to Sagittarius in 4th - frequent change of residence, restlessness. I was in boarding school on two occasions, one time for nursery, where I really suffered, and another time for junior high, which had an experimental program that I wanted to participate in. I promptly left home when I was 18 and lived on a different continent from my parents since age 22). In other words, I've only felt like home when I live away from home (parental and greater family).

Since I've come to my own, I feel really grounded. Even though I've moved so many times in the last 15 years, I always managed to find something unique and warm. I never stayed in shitholes. People have mentioned that I'm an element of reassurance at times of crisis, and that I'm able to handle so many changes in such a calm fashion because I'm an earth sign...

But every time I go back to my natal town (I did not grow up there but only went intermittently to see grandparents), I feel a nagging anxiety. The feeling is all the more pronounced because I almost never feel anxious, even for performances, interviews, competitions, long-distance travel, staying with strangers, and whatnot. I haven't been able to figure out why. Is Neptune holding some sort of secret that I'm not aware of?

FarEastUranus said:

...I was born around daybreak, but I don't have the hospital records. This time was recorded by my mom, and according to her, it's 5 am sharp. I would need a bunch of official records to be able to access my birth data at the hospital. Maybe when the time is right, the hospital birth time will be revealed to me...

Click to expand...

greybeard said:

If the time was recorded by your mom, it is likely that she placed some importance on it, and even though she was busy with other matters at the time, is probably very close if not exact. You could have been born 14 minutes earlier and still Virgo would be the Ascendant (with Leo rising for the two hours or so before that.) The meridian axis (MC & IC) changed signs only 3 minutes before 5 a.m. Unless you plan on doing some very fine predicting of your future, I would accept 5 a.m. as a "good" birth time -- it will serve you well enough in understanding yourself

Click to expand...

FarEastUranus said:

It's also comforting to know that the birth time will not affect too much my chart interpretation. I was really concerned about basing presumptions on the wrong premise.

Click to expand...

If birth time is inaccurate that obviously most definitely affects the accuracy of the natal chart interpretation.

Interesting for you to access your official hospital records if you are able to do so FarEastUranus, while they are available - it's important as well because there are many posts on this forum from individuals who were told they had a certain time of birth only to discover on accessing official hospital records that those records differed considerably from the time of birth as recalled by family members for example. Obviously even hospital records are subject to error, so also is personal recollection by those present at - or soon after - the actual birth

Dear Greybeard,

That is one poignant story and I'm glad that you had that one defining experience with your mother. Truly cathartic.

I have/had very loving parents. I think there were many moments that parents diverged, and to say that they each had complicated family history is an understatement. However, they were both adamant on keeping the nucleus family strong and I was not raised by my grandparents, like is customary in our culture. My dad and I had a strong bond that excluded my mom a bit when he was alive (He was a Pisces). We just understood each other. Mom was more disciplinarian. But now that my mom and I live apart, we talk on the phone every other day or so. I still can't live with her, for obvious reasons, but I don't have any grudges towards her, only love and appreciation.

Today, I only wish that my mom would worry less about everybody and everything and starts living for herself, be a bit more carefree, which she is doing by re-marrying, a genuinely courageous step for her. I say this because she has always been emotionally closed in matters of romantic love, and she is evolving so much in this current relationship.

Glad to hear that.

Although you are a double Virgo you have the sun in the 1st house which is a stronger influence. Whatever Virgo feels like, I dont know. You need not to take too much notice of cookbook astrology. Mercury rules Virgo, for now, and you need to look at the aspects it is making and where.

Someone mentioned in another thread that I must have a lot of Uranus aspecting personal planets, I was like, "niah, just squaring Saturn, and it's the story of my life." I've always championed for new ways of doing things, even in the womb, and was a trouble maker and headache for traditionalist teachers, even though I always had high grades. I wreaked havoc in classical music but eventually left that path because it was too stifling. I now make a living out of it: conceptual artist in new media and installations. After having great success with a groundbreaking project in photography, and having had big collectors buy my work, I decided to throw the label away and learn to work on sound installations, MIDI music, virtual reality, 3-D. I'm going to a 2-week art Biennale workshop on New Media starting from Wednsday...

Just today, I saw that "Holy ****!" I have Uranus sextile Asc as well as Moon. No wonder I don't feel like a Virgo Asc.

Here's the description, and for once, every single word fits:

Uranus sextile Asc:
You think like a rebel whether you act the role or not. You are impatient with traditional concepts unless they bring results when you adhere to them. Fascinated by novelty, your mind races with high expectation when you encounter an ingenious idea. Although you are restless and like to be on the move all the time, you realize that you cannot hope to win any support for your creative ideas unless you convince important people that you are stable and dependable. Your greatest selling point is your original and progressive creativity...
http://www.astrozoom.com/astrologer/astrology/p_24/

Moon sextile Uranus

The Moon sextile Uranus suggests that you will be given opportunities in life to change and transform yourself emotionally and at a subconscious level and that such opportunities will present themselves in the form of revelations or sudden insights. These revelations and perceptions from the higher mind can make a deep impression on your subconscious, so that even if you make no immediate behavioral change or conscious decision to change, processes may be set in motion at the subconscious level that will result in the transformation of your outlook and behavior.
http://depthastrology2.com/MoonUranus.html#MoonSextileUranus

Without the knowledge of my natal chart, I intuitively felt that my life mission is represented by Uranus, and was not surprised by the conjunction with North Node. I even randomly chose the pseudo Far East Uranus. Is that a symbol for the Asc sextile Uranus? Why is it that I didn't see these aspects even though I was told to look for them? And why did the other astrologers here not choose to comment on these?

I'm interested in hearing feedbacks
[/FONT][/B][/FONT]

[trimmed quotes over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator

Uranus Aspects
Uranus sextile Ascendant orb +1°12'
Moon sextile Uranus orb -1°40'
Saturn square Uranus orb -6°44'
Sun sextile Uranus orb -6°15'

Uranus is one of the weakest planets in your chart. Sextiles aren't going to produce the striking deviations you are looking for, and a sextile with a 6 degree orb is not even worth mentioning. However, both Pluto and Neptune are powerful in your chart. All of the outer planets deviate from the norm -- not just Uranus. Please consult my earlier response for numerous reasons why you don't relate to your Sun Sign.

Thank you Prodigal.

I went back to your posting and agree with the Leonine (Sun emphasized by Asc) quality, which perhaps gives the playful personality to my makeup. Asc trine moon is also almost perfect, bringing out fire house cusp energies (1st and 5th).

However, I did not see the Moon and Ascendant sextile Uranus until today, and the orbs are within 1.5 degrees.

What about the North Node conjunction. Is that negligible?

Regarding Pluto, would you say that Mars + Pluto exhibit an overall Scorpion energy and make the Libran/Venusian energy much more penetrating, dark? Or are there alternative interpretations?

And why is Neptune a bigger influence than Uranus? Is it because it is in an angular house and generates dynamic aspects? I ask because I'm often described as clear, logical, sharp, and incisive, very rarely as "spaced out" or "dreamy." Perhaps I only dream in my private quarters (IC)? I do have way too much imagination and make unusual association of ideas, which I thought was related to my 5th house moon...

Thank you so much for clarifications.

Neptune is making a close (1 degree orb) dynamic aspect (i.e. conjunction, square, or opposition) to your Sun. This is clearly the most significant aspect in the chart. People with close squares or oppositions to the Sun from Neptune frequently become artists, junkies, and/or saints.

The clarity you speak of all fits perfectly with Virgo.

Mars/Pluto goes straight for the depths, and is rather uncomfortable in Libra, where it may be inclined to manifest more indirectly, or passively, than in other signs. In other words, it will come out in your art, which is likely to deal with rather confronting subject matter. There may be an attraction to the theme of "decisive moments". Libra is very much concerned with classical dialectics (realist and idealist, determinism and free will, masculine and feminine, etc.), and the presence of a Mercury/Mars/Pluto here would suggest an aggressive approach, where you seek the heart of the matter -- the point of either/or.

Uranus Conjunct the NorthNode is more significant than the other aspects it makes. It suggests that you may admire the Uranian energy, but also experience apprehensiveness around it. Life will encourage you to express Uranian characteristics, and they will become more pronounced as you get older. Uranus may also provide a remedy to the Libran "back and forth", since it is concerned not with "either/or", but with "both/neither". (This is true of Aquarius as well.)

Excellent explanation of the Pluto/Mars energy.

I do channel the Uranus energy very well, given that I've always identified with the tradition of the avant-garde, more so than being an artist per se. I clearly admired since a young age all the iconoclasts (in both art and sciences), from Socrates to Bosch to Galileo to Bach to Marcel Duchamp, but I wonder where you see I would simultaneously feel "apprehension"?

I often get comments that I'm "fearless" in my art, or that I have "such courage," "a lot of balls," which I find very odd because there is no conquest of fear involved in my work process. I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of things (Mars/Pluto). I can be fearful of mosquitoes, dampness, noise, claustrophobia, too much responsibility, too many restrictions, etc, so I don't really view myself as a courageous person, more a creature of comfort. But I do not dread the new (Uranus), or the deep (Pluto).

I also have this uncomfortable inertia for many days, until something happens that forces me to take a split-sec action, and once that first action is taken, I've broken the spell. But I can never force it myself. I see it as the conflict between Pluto/Mars and the Libran energy of constantly balancing?