Astrological Parts. Known and Unknown...a project

piercethevale · Dec 17, 2014

Greetings.
I've now added six new formulae of which four are entirely new subjects. The other two are different formulae for Parts already listed for Parts bearing the same title. Those already listed could be in error as the two carrying the same title are from the Winstar astrological software, that Michael Erlewine developed, that I owned and had used, for a couple of years, until that particular computer was stolen from my apt. in 2009. As I can't recall where I got the other two formulae from and think that it was very likely from an internet website, or possibly even a contribution from a forum member, I have to give Mr. Erlewine's software the benefit of the doubt as, I know him just well enough to know, He is a very exacting man for detail and thoroughness and takes great pride in his work. I am adding them in addition to the others and not deleting any, as for the reason that my opinion is not an objective factor here. In fact all of the following I got from the three screen shots that I took of forum member "Imnotthere's" Astrological Parts that were derived from his natal chart by that Winstar software some years ago. As I came across them today in a forgotten file that was one of many on a backup disc I made some years ago.

So... Here's what's new.

Asc. + Jupiter - Cusp 5th: "Speculation"

...and I'd like to call Phoenix Venus' attention to this next Part as we both had been under the assumption that it was one of those that are listed as unknown and also has a formula structure that is the same as those of which are known as the "Seven Hermetic Lots".

Asc. + Jupiter - Part of Fortune: "Success"

Asc. + Moon - Ruler 1st House: "Killing Planet" {that already listed with the same title has the Cusp of the 12th as the "Trigger"}

Asc. + Cusp 7th - Venus: "Partners"

Asc. + Part of Fortune - Ruler 1st House: "Sorrow" {that already listed with the same title has the Cusp of the 1st as the "Trigger"}

...and I have been aware of the following for some time but was reluctant to listing it. As for the reason it wasn't already on the list, there's a couple of points of contention, one being that it is not titled as a "Part". The other point is plainly evident, I believe, as I think you'll see from the following formula and what is claimed to have been derived from it.

Mars + Saturn - M.C.: "Death (Point)"

Which like the Hyleg planet, which is also called "the giver of life", the "apheta", the "prorogator" increasingly became an issue among astrologers over many years as to the dubious ethics of predicting the length of another persons life and subsequently eroded in usage until these more modern times when the practice of such had finally been discontinued and all terms associated with such practice were eliminated from the vocabulary of, at least, common use among astrologers especially in professional consultation with clientele.
I figured that I'd list it just so as for the purpose of creating the most comprehensive list compiled and available on the internet.

If anyone has any objections, especially the mods or admin. :rightful:

please let me know and I'll delete it.

...And if anyone has something to contribute to the list, a new formula, an alternative title for an existing one, evidence to present or published source that states something posted to be irrefutably otherwise... PLEASE CONTRIBUTE, and thank you.
ptv :smile:

piercethevale · Dec 24, 2014

Well, as I spent a good two and a half to three hours writing a reply to a post I stumbled upon in the "natal" sub forum in response to a thread asking if Pluto has any astrological significance, which is an older thread and my post being #80 it'll likely get little notice and little read, so since in my post I revealed quite a bit of, heretofore, previously unreleased information I've gathered from research the last few years concerning the transit of Pluto and also Uranus and Neptune during the Civil War between the United States and the Confederate States of America, that I was planning on keeping most of under wraps for a book project upcoming {as publishers do prefer printing books that contain original material.} but I'd rather reach a few dozen astrologers that will recognize valid knowledge and technique when they see it and go on to utilize it themselves than sell a few hundred thousand books to a general public that will most likely only read it out of plain curiosity.

Consider it a Christmas present from me to all of you.

>>>Copied and pasted as follows >>> >>>

Pluto just crossed the mid haven of the natal chart of the United States* for the first time in the nations history three times this past year and then just left the one degree orb of conjunction on December 6th. During the Civil War Pluto was conjunct the Part of Race aka Part of Racial Consciousness aka Part of Galvanization {Asc. + Moon - Pluto} derived from the USA natal chart and is at 10* Taurus 45', in a one degree orb of conjunction or less from April 1862 to January 1865 and also to the Part of Hope aka Part of Integrity {Asc. + Mercury - Jupiter } derived from the USA natal chart at 10* Taurus 14', beginning just some weeks earlier and ending the relative same. General Lee surrendered on April 9th, 1865 and when president Lincoln was assassinated on April 14th and Mercury was conjunct the Part of Racial Consciousness at the time, Uranus conj the Part of Suicide {Asc. + C8 - Neptune} at 25* Taurus 36', Pluto was at 12* Taurus 19' and was conj the USA natal Part of Retribution {Asc. + Sun - Mars} at 13* Taurus 15' {and also the Part of Slander aka Part of Timidity Asc. + Saturn - Neptune although it's a Part that of which title I've yet to do research on and confirm...at 13* Taurus 52'}and was on that degree for a quite some time while the infamous "Restoration of the South" was initiated.
When President Andrew Johnson declared the war over on May 9th, Neptune was in direct motion at 09* Aries 29' and conjunct the USA natal Part of Transformation at 09* Aries 29" and the natal Part of Liberty at 09* Aries 37'.

Still want to believe that Pluto is some ineffectual pebble in the heavens?
In the revealing light of all that evidence ...and I have more, lots more...do you seriously believe that you will convince people that Pluto has no influence on our lives?

*The "Zero Hour" USA natal chart, 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

piercethevale · Jun 5, 2015

I cleaned up, that is to say that I made it more concise, clearer and up to date with what understandings we have accumulated to date, the footnotes on the Part of Hyleg and the Part of Sudden Advancement aka Part of Nemesis.

They both had become near unintelligible from all the editing that has transpired over time. So, I pretty much re-wrote both from scratch. It doesn't mean these are the final definitive, just that they are more concise statements of where our limits of understanding are at present.

If anyone thinks they could be further improved let me know.

piercethevale · Jul 3, 2015

I've added five Parts to the list, They are...

1. Asc. + Cusp 12th - Neptune: Assassination (another one by the same title)

2. Asc. + Ruler of Moons' House - Moon: Expected Birth (obviously a Part used in Horary)

3. Asc. + Ruler of Saturns' House - Saturn: Capitivity (another by the same name)

4. Asc. + Gemini 10* - Sun: Death of Sibling (likely a Horary Part)

5. Asc. + Cusp 5th - Ruler 5th: Sexual Attraction & Desire

There's more to come in the next few days.

piercethevale · May 10, 2016

Greetings.
I added another, alternative, name for the formula Asc. + Neptune - Venus. (currently known only as the Part of False Love)
I'm calling it the Part of Ideal Love or Idealized Love.

Venus, the Planet of Beauty and Appreciation/Love as the "Trigger" influencing its higher octave Neptune, which is the Planet that governs the imaginative faculties... makes perfect sense to me... that what occurs is ones sense of Beauty and Love is imagining the ideal culmination of those very things... and that can be in the form of another person, an artistic creation, poetry or a musical composition.

Phoenix Venus and I have discussed this matter and at this time it does seem to be the correct interpretation.

Her Part of Lovers and my Part of Ideal Love are in the same sign and degree... we will keep you all informed of any developments and let you know how that works out. :wink:

piercethevale · May 10, 2016

The opposite formula, i.e. Asc. + Venus - Neptune is known as the Part of Deceit and the Part of Vanity.

The Planet Neptune as the "Trigger"... the Planet that rules the imaginative process giving a vision that Venus then seizes upon...

What? That doesn't sound bad, you say?

Well, that would depend on what stimulated or even auto suggested the imagery, now, wouldn't it?

Sounds to me that it has much potentiality to be a source of deception.

The Part of Deceit for the Yeshu'a chart I have proposed to be authentic is at 13* Capricorn 04' 21" by the posted chart... his Part of Destiny is 13* Capricorn 13' 57" by the posted chart (here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13271)

Could this be the answer as to why He is said to have called out from the cross, "Father, why has thou forsaken me?" :surprised:

piercethevale · Jul 30, 2016

I just wanted to note that with the confirmation from my most trusted friend and esteemed clairvoyant, Clarisse, I have added the alternative name of Part of 'Ideal Love' and the other name I have suggested, 'Idealized Love', in the colour green to that of what has been known as the Part of False Love, Part of Corruptness.
See my thread on this subject in this same sub-forum for more on this development.

I'm 99.9% convinced that this alternative title is as accurate a one as anyone can come up with. Clarisse even used the same term "It' one's Ideal Love and something to be sought after".

The odd thing is understanding the symbolism for this Part as to how that has to do with that "ideal".

I'm going to be working on that in the aforementioned thread and it would be wonderful if some of you other members would contribute... tell me the exact position that you find your Part in and maybe share some insight into what you picture to be the ideal love of your life.

It may have more to do with how you want it to be expressed rather than objectify it?

One thing for me is certain, presently, and I do so recommend the same for anyone that comes across the same. If you meet someone that has Part of Lovers conjunct your Part of Ideal Love, at least get to know them and if you are both single ...well, give it a whirl. ...and the same vice versa.
See what develops and please do so share any experiences with the rest of us. :wink:

piercethevale · Oct 26, 2016

Greetings.
For the formula Asc. + Venus - Jupiter I dropped the suggested alternative title that was in red type, "Contentment of the Soul".
I did, although, add two suggested alternatives to the same. They are 'Obligations of Love' and 'Devotional Duty'.

The most commonly used title of "Mans' Marriage" does have some validity to it, imho, but is a bit short of being all encompassing of what the formula is implicating. As most marriages do become more of a devotional commitment, rather than a bonding risen from passion, as years pass I find these two new suggestions to very likely be "keepers". I do want to add that the suggested title that has been removed, i.e. 'Contentment of the Soul' wan't entirely erroneous in my opinion in that some people do find contentment is performing those obligations and such devotional duties.

Try them out. See if the Sabian Symbol for the Sign and degree the Part is found in is relative to those principles in the chart natives life.
I'd love to hear some feedback from anyone that does so.

Late Edit. I also just dropped the suggested alternative title of "Obligations" for the formula Asc. + Mars - Venus and in its' stead I have offered an alternative title, that of, 'Acts Born Out of Love'

piercethevale · Nov 28, 2016

piercethevale said:
gavre it some thought and I realized I had what seemed lik an epiphany one night as to the pattern I thought I saw and how and why I did come up with "The Unnecessary" ...which I had intended as a suggestion and not a consensual addition.

Venus = Eros
Neptune = Imprisonment

the Part of Fortune being one of the Seven Hermetic Lots...
thus the PoF is aka the Part of Moon

Moon = Fortunate
Saturn = Nemesis

Mercury = Necessity
Uranus = [Unnecessary?]

hmm...?

you know, I'm now seeing it as that which would be beyond necessity... more like, super augmenting... or something like that.
[thanks for your pointing out that it would obviously have to be beneficent.]

I'll keep your suggestions and my thoughts here on the desk for continued further thought until tomorrow.

Thank you P.R. for your efforts and contributions.
... any more, or does anyone else with, thoughts ...suggestions...?

E L & L ptv

Phoenix Venus tracked down an old post of mine, for me, that I was searching for. I was at a complete loss to remember as to what thread it was in, and as she knew where it was she sent me a message on facebook this afternoon.
I still haven't got to that post because as I was scrolling down the page looking for it (she forgot to tell me what number the post is, she only sent a link to this page) I was skim reading each post of mine and I hit the brakes when I came upon this old one.
It's a real embarrassment to me now as I realized that I had either forgotten exactly what my reasoning was and hastily put together some sort of explanation that I thought was suitable at the time or that I actually did write down the very intent and line of reasoning that led to such an erroneous solution?
I' d like to believe it to have been the former.
As that bit about the Moon and Saturn is so screwy that I do have to wonder if I might not have even been somewhat tipsy that evening...and the time stamp does say that it was posted in the wee hours in California's time zone so it may have been both tiredness and an impaired mind I was contending with.

Regardless, as I was giving it some thought again now, anyways, I pondered on what might be the solution. As I figured that given it's now been about three and a half years since I posted that, and given that Phoenix and I have continued on in close rapport and have covered many of the Parts together since then, I thought I might be much more experienced and thus equipped to be able to take a pretty good crack at it, if not just outright solve the riddle as to what Uranus in such a formula does produce.

But Looking through the complete list of Parts I sadly realized how little progress we've made with any Part that includes Uranus in the formula. The only ne I 99% sue of is the Part of Astrology (Asc. + Mercury - Uranus) although that is very likely just a partial answer. It's opposite formula ( Asc. + Uranus - Mercury) we've rather tentatively concurred on "Omens & Signs"

But, that's it. That's all the progress Phoenix V. and I have made with Uranus influenced Astrological Parts since the above was first posted in May of 2013.

But while I was going over the pattern of the Hermetic lots I did spot what, I believe, may be an answer to just what Asc. + Uranus - Part of Soul/Spirit does amount to ...and as it turned out it's exactly what I had before that Phoenix found a reason to object to.
I'm going to post this so as to not have to try to remember it again later on and hopefully Phoenix V. will enter into a discussion about this again...or maybe I can drag her into it if the need be...and we'll hash it out...and hopefully come up with an answer finally. ...or at least a tentative one that we can agree on.

My line of reasoning is as follows:

If Asc. + Venus - Part of Soul/Spirit = Eros...those that we want as our closest companions, our comrades in arms, our compatriots, our "posse" so as to enable us to achieve our destiny in this lifetime.

And as Asc. + Part of Fortune - Neptune, the higher octave of Venus, = Imprisonment ...two Parts that are assuredly just what their respective titles claim them to be.

Then, as Asc. + Part of Fortune - Mercury = Necessity , also assuredly.

It does stand to reason that Asc. + Uranus - Part of Soul/Spirit = The Unnecessary as Uranus is the higher octave of Mercury.

I won't add any titles to the list yet, though. I want to hear Phoenix V's opinion on this now that I can demonstrate my line of reasoning...and her talent and abilities have expanded greatly since we first, and last, discussed this between us. She certainly does have those "mad skills" i credited her with back then and she's proven herself to be exceptionally skillful with working with Astrological Parts. It's been a a real pleasure getting to know her and work with her these past three and a half years ...and a blessing too as for all she has contributed from her own research and study and in assisting me with the revision of my book... :smile:

I know that I've said this too many times already, but I really should keep better notes as this quite possibly could have been worked out a few years ago if I had.

piercethevale · Nov 28, 2016

I asked for, and got permission, from Phoenix Venus to post the ensuing conversation we've had since my last pot above about my proposal of a title for the formula Asc. + Uranus - Par of Soul/Spirit.

t begins with the message I left her last night just before I retired while she slumbered on the East Coast of the United States as she is in timezone three hours ahead of us here on the West Coast. She replied this morning while I slumbered.

piercethevale: "It took me until about 1 a.m. here to finally get to the post in the Astrological Parts Known & Unknown thread. I haven't figured anything out either, not yet anyhow. It's because while I was scrolling down the page looking for the post... I got hung up on the post where I was trying to explain my reasoning for giving a title that I did to one of the unknowns that involves Uranus.
Anyways, to make it short. I went over what I wrote, reassessed and posted about it. It's the last post in the thread, of course, and I want you to check it out, if and when you are able to, and let me know your evaluation. Mine is in the 24th of Aries (see Sabian Symbol for Aries 24* , below. ptv) and I can see it as being that. I have always been that way from the get go...so it wasn't ever necessary for me to have to make an effort to do so."

Phoenix Venus: "Are you sure that symbolizes something unnecessary for you...? "As the window curtains are blown inward, the individual consciousness represented by the house is receiving a more concentrated influx of spiritual energies, enabling this consciousness to extend the scope of its awareness and creative expression."... Isn't that exactly what happened with the sprite..?""

...and she added about 15 minutes later...

Phoenix V.: "I'm gonna have to contemplate these some more.
Yeshu'a's is at 26 Virgo. Mine is at 18 Leo. I'd copy the symbols but i've gotta get ready for work."

...I responded about an hour ago...

pierce: "Yeah, but the symbol is stressing remaining (in a state of) "openness" and Dane speaks of how for the wind to enter it must be a lower pressure area than without.
I reached out ...my curtains blew outward inviting the spiritual forces in. and if not willingly I grabbed a hold and dragged them in.
At least I can say that I had no need to consciously apply something as the likes of it. I've always been open and rather TOO open, in my humble opinion.
But this doesn't mean that that's what the Part represents, we both know how one can be fooled at times by what logically seems to work for their own chart until the solution is arrived at and then the correct symbolism becomes glaringly obvious."

...and I followed that up with another post...

pierce: "In fact what I wrote above I should post at the forum... whether you replied or not... I think it's an important point to bring up... that is, being mislead by ones own personal circumstances as to what seemingly works for you doesn't mean it might even work for another single soul."

...and I followed up with one more post...

pierce: "It's just that I thought the concept I think I see, in the pattern unfolding as to how these Parts that incl. the PoFortune ad the PoSoul as either the Trigger or the Significator, is appearing to be as."

...a moment later, Phoenix chimed in....

Phoenix V: "Well i can sort of see it working for Yeshu'a's chart but im still on the fence about it."

pierce: "Oh, there you are.... Hi, good afternoon.
Like I wrote at the Forum. I didn't add this to the list, as yet.
btw...watch out for the rusty nail on that fence,"

Phoenix V: "Well then what about the Part Asc. + Pluto - Part of Soul?"

pierce: "I'll have to look at it
do we have something for that presently?
I don't think we do..."

Phoenix V. " Nah"

pierce: "Well as Asc. + PoFortune- Mars = Courage, then if the concept holds water your formula should be the antithesis of Courage..."

...and I followed that, almost immediately afterwards, with...

pierce: "...and I can see where that makes sense ...the Soul triggering the planet of death and transformation.... where one comes to realize,, through the effort of the soul that to enact such would mean something awful...death where it isn't the solution or answer to the symbolism shown by the degree its found in."

...and I replied in addition....

pierce: "So ...maybe not a Part of Fear but something one does not find encouragement to proceed."

pierce: "My Asc. + Pluto - PoSoul = 28* Taurus 36' 31" (that is the 29th degree of Taurus, please see the Sabian Symbol for that degree below. ptv)... and isn't that my Part of Basis...? I just realized I don't have my PoBasis on my list.
That is strange because at one time I had that degree as one of the real malefic Parts (of mine) but it was a mis-calculation...now this is implying that it is, after all, malefic to me... that is if the theory is correct?
...and because I did believe it to be malefic for some length of time I have studied it in that light and it did make some sense to me....
I don't care to see things from the point of view of those that serve the Darkness... I don't like going there because I believe it tends to corrupt my pure state of being. Not that I'm in a pure state of being ...not consciously, but that it does exist on some level."

...and I followed that with...

pierce: "Take the issue of gay marriage for example. They want me to see things from their view point and when I do I can see their point but I also know how God must surely feel about it... marriage is a spiritual ritual that is used to conduct, to initiate, the union of man and woman. ...not something to be used for any type of union, but only the union of a man & woman establishing themselves as a family dedicated to service to God."

...and I followed that post with...

pierce: "Or take the act of sex as an example. Current situation is that no one has any right to impose a restriction on anyone else as to when, where, or with what a person engages in sex with ...and the porno industry is protected by the right to free speech... and premarital sex goes on far more than the number of people that abstain and reserve it only for the one they have married or will someday marry. But you and I both know that the people of the highest spiritual character do just that."

...and lastly, my final post to Phoenix V., so far today...

pierce: "...so what the heck, thee's nothing wrong with checking out a little porno ...right?
...except that some people are very susceptible to it and easily form an addiction to it ...and I think that no one knows that for a fact better than those of us with a Scorpio Asc. ...not all of us, possibly... of course the rest of the chart makes a huge difference but as that it is the basis of our awareness...that state of Scorpioness ...we can understand it the easiest."

(ibid.)
"Aries 24*: BLOWN INWARD BY THE WIND, THE CURTAINS OF AN OPEN WINDOW TAKE THE SHAPE OF A CORNUCOPIA.
KEYNOTE: Openness to the influx of spiritual energies.
The principle of abundance is brought to a further stage in this rather cryptic symbol. Physical fruition is shown operating at a more subtle and spiritual level. The wind (pneuma, spirit) blows through the open mind-window and brings into the house of personality a promise of more-than-material potency. Wind blows from a region of high pressure to one of low pressure. As the window curtains are blown inward, the individual consciousness represented by the house is receiving a more concentrated influx of spiritual energies, enabling this consciousness to extend the scope of its awareness and creative expression.
This message applying to this fourth stage of the five-fold sequence is that inner growth demands not just an open mind but one able to provide a container for a spiritual harvest. The cornucopian shape of the window's curtains suggests that the subtler translucent aspect of the mind (the curtains) has acquired a plastic quality enabling it to be MOLDED BY TRANSPERSONAL FORCES."

(ibid)
"Taurus 29*: TWO COBBLERS WORKING AT A TABLE.
KEYNOTE: The two-fold character of man's mature understanding.
In symbolism the feet are the symbol of understanding. Understanding differs from mere knowledge because it implies at least some degree of identification in depth with what is being understood. Moreover it is impossible fully to understand anything except when its opposite is taken into consideration. The mental process of understanding — and therefore of appreciation — implies confrontation between two points of view. Thus the mind gains a sense of perspective. The way to dispel a shadow is to have the object illumined (on its own two-dimensional level) by two sources of light. True understanding dissipates any intellectual shadow. The 'two cobblers' symbolize two contrasting ways of approaching the understanding of an experience — especially a new experience — and they provide concrete forms which may clothe and protect the understanding.
This is the fourth stage of this twelfth five-fold sequence. It reveals symbolically the way in which a mature individual mind works in an attempt to gain PERSPECTIVE; a true perspective becomes the foundation upon which to build a new approach to life."

piercethevale · Nov 29, 2016

Well, Phoenix Venus and I discussed this the rest of the evening ... for a couple-few hours, anyways... and it may be that it's a flawed theory, we've decided...or one that might not "pan out" ... I have to consider if the Hermetic Lot of Courage is symbolic of that form which one will draw courage from or that which one can best use to inspire others to be of courage?...and then try to decide which of those two my own Hermetic Lot of Courage is, which is in the 8th degree of Pisces (and which just so happens to be the same Sign and degree of Phoenix Venus' Part of Soul/Spirit.

(ibid.)
"PISCES 8°: A GIRL BLOWING A BUGLE.
KEYNOTE: A call to participation in the service of the race, as an evolutionary crisis approaches.
This symbolic picture presents another aspect of the emotional relationship between the individual and the collectivity of human beings. It can also be related to the old feminist movement or the present women's liberation. In traditional symbolism the woman refers more specifically to the biological and psychic aspect of human life; she is seen primarily as the mother, and/or the intuitive or "psychic" type of person. A new race of human beings may well be slowly unfolding some of its potential of consciousness and fulfillment. The individual who envisions this evolutionary development "sounds the call." He or she is both seer-herald and mutant. In that sense such a human being is both an individual true to his original nature and a dedicated person — dedicated to the future he or she holds in latency as does a seed in mutation.
At this third stage of the sixty-eighth five-fold sequence the two preceding phases blend in a new form of consecration of the individual to the Whole. Tomorrow acts through today; it SUMMONS men to rebirth."

But here's the gist, the heart or core, of what I'm using to base this theory upon.... as follows... as I wrote Her in my last message to Her tonight (she does have a job that she has to get up early for while I am retired and don't have to live my life by the clock so much anymore).

...copied and pasted as follows...

"yeah, it's an alternating type of algorithm of some sort.

but what is causing me to be a bit stumped is ...well let me just show you:

Asc. + PoFortune - Sun = Noble & Illustrious Acquaintances

Asc. + PoFortune - Mercury = Necessity

Asc. + PoFortune - Mars = Courage

Asc. + PoFortune - Saturn = Sudden Advancement (although it was titled as Nemesis within the Hermetic Lot array which makes it sound malefic)

Asc. + PoFortune - Neptune = Imprisonment (which also sounds malefic)

...and...

Asc. + PoFortune - Pluto = ?

So leaving the one title of Nemesis and the Part of Noble & Illustrious aside for now as because I want to see if it shouldn't only be this only applies to the formulae that don't have either of the Luminaries in the formula. I was seeing it from what's left, those of Mercury, Mars sand Saturn as if every other planet outward from the Sun beginning with Mercury is a beneficent but then Neptune goes and spoils that ...as Imprisonment sounds to be a bit malefic.

And so then, proceeding with every other Part outward form the Sun beginning with Venus:

Asc. + Venus - PoSoul = Eros

Asc. + Jupiter- PoSoul = Victory

..which both seem beneficent, should mean that it's the same for...

Asc. + Uranus - PoSoul = something beneficent

...but you know what?
I've forgotten that the Planet that used to be there between Mars and Jupiter has to be accounted for... sh***"

...end or messages...

...So , folks, that's the point at which we decided to call it a night. Phoenix V. did have some observations that were in the mix back there that I could have included but I thought it to be best t just keep it to what I had wrote that was explaining the premise upon with I built this theory around, that is, that there appears to be an algorithm that is an alternating patterned one in these Lots or Parts that are using the Part of Fortune and the Part of Soul within the formulae as the "Significators" and the "Triggers"

If she wishes to include those observations of hers I'll let her decide about that and she can post them or I will do that for her tomorrow or when I next get back to this.
A few involved using the same Parts or Lots derived from the "Yeshu'a natal chart" that I've been touting ever since I joined this forum about 9 years ago as being a "Template for the understanding". but as to this day so few have recognized it as being, what I believe it to be, that is the birth chart of the man known as Yeshu'a ben David aka Jesus of Nazareth, it won't be of any importance but to those that have recognized it as being such and those that are at least giving it a benefit of the doubt or those that are still weighing the possibility but are interested in any new developments.

So until then... May Gods' Eternal Light & Love be bestowed upon those that do so wish it to be.
Happy Holidays, ptv

piercethevale · Nov 29, 2016

I should have added that if is a fact that we have to include the shattered planet that is now known as the asteroid belt then the pattern should continue on after that of Asc. + PoFortune - Mars = Hermetic Lot of Courage

as to that of, Asc. + PoFortune - Jupiter + which is an unknown ...but the Part derived from Asc. + Jupiter - Po Fortune is said to be a "Part of Success" (and that derived from Asc. + Jupiter - PoSoul = Hermetic Lot of Victory aka Part of Happiness.)

which in turn would be followed by Asc. + PoFortune - Uranus = what is still an unknown (though i did propose that which is derived from Asc. + Uranus - PoSoul = 'Part of the Necessary' (or perhaps "Lot" would be more appropriate as to keeping within that concept/theme?)

Phoenix Venus · Nov 29, 2016

Thanks piercethevale for your hard work and dilligence with this topic.

Heres another piece to the puzzle. In attempting to get to the bottom of this pattern, with planets being triggered by the part of soul, or triggering the part of fortune, i started looking up some alternating formulas. Because we know that As + pof - neptune = the part of imprisonment i decided to check the part As + neptune - part of soul.

Of course I looked up Yeshua's first because His chart truly is a template for understanding. And what i produced is remarkable in that the symbol produces a concept that is very much in synch withthe part of imprisonment. This results in a pretty clear cut understanding.

Let me post his part of imprisonment so you can see what i mean.

His part of imprisonment is at 24.33 capricorn or the 25th degree of cappy. Here's the symbol:

"A STORE FILLED WITH PRECIOUS ORIENTAL RUGS.

KEYNOTE: The use of cultural and artistic processes as means to enhance personal comfort and appreciation.

Corning after the preceding symbol this one brings us back to the material, yet esthetic, aspect of the benefits a society can bring its members. A "rug" always implied to some extent something on which a person stands or sits. It is a foundation for cultural "under-standing," and as such it can have a magical or sacred meaning, as in the case of prayer rugs. The "woman in a convent" probably knows only the bare floor, because her goal is one of transcendence, of surrendering comfort as well as cultural patterns. But to the social elite, or even to the oriental devotee praying to his god, society offers the relative comfort of beautiful rugs so he may meet the universe, not merely in terms of the support the natural soil gives, but protected by and securely established on the mental-spiritual as well as manual achievements of those who keep the cultural symbols alive.

This is the last symbol in the fifty-ninth five-fold sequence. It shows the beautiful products of dedicated and inspired group performance at the level of tradition. It emphasizes the value of RELIANCE ON TRADITION."

And we know that Yeshua broke down the barriers of religious traditions of the times. So He was very much imprisoned from "reliance on tradition" and "the use of cultural processes to enhance personal comfort."

And His part of As + Neptune - part of spirit calculates to be at 11.58 taurus, the twelfth degree of taurus.

"A YOUNG COUPLE WINDOW-SHOPPING.

KEYNOTE: The fascination of the youthful ego with the products of its culture.

The woman waters flowers in her garden: this is the inward-turned attention of the mind reveling in its own flowering. But now we have a scene symbolizing the outward longing of the ego, which has polarized itself and become "man-woman." The "man" aspect is that part of the ego which craves direct participation with society and the world of other egos. Fully to participate requires a special kind of substantiation - and we are still in this third scene, the Keyword of which is "Substantiation." Clothes, goods of various types, adornment, and working tools are needed. The consciousness surveys possibilities; they are defined by organic nature (personal abilities) and by the ambition to succeed in society.

This second stage is defined in contrast to the first. The ego becomes aware of what society has to offer. Its attention is turned outward. An interplay takes place between the individual and his culture. He is being molded by what he sees and by prospects for growth in social prestige. It is a phase of SOCIALIZATION OF DESIRES."

See how these two parts are so connected? A young couple goes window shopping and they stop at a store filled with precious oriental rugs. The first symbol stresses the use of cultural patterns as a mean to enhance one's comfort, the second symbol stresses the fascination of the ego with the products of culture!!!

I think wheras the part of imprisonment represents that which has become imprisoned from us, this part (As + nep - pos) symbolizes that which we might distance ourselves from. A concept that we imprison ourselves from, or a concept that we shun or resist. And its possible that this resistance is what leads to that concept that we are imprisoned from. Yeshua resisted societal ego gratification and thus, the personal comfort that arises out of making use societal tradition, was imprisoned from him.

I looked up mine as well and it seems to fit. Of course, it will take more research to get an overwhelming concensus.

piercethevale · Nov 30, 2016

Phoenix Venus said:
Thanks piercethevale for your hard work and dilligence with this topic.

Heres another piece to the puzzle. In attempting to get to the bottom of this pattern, with planets being triggered by the part of soul, or triggering the part of fortune, i started looking up some alternating formulas. Because we know that As + pof - neptune = the part of imprisonment i decided to check the part As + neptune - part of soul.

Of course I looked up Yeshua's first because His chart truly is a template for understanding. And what i produced is remarkable in that the symbol produces a concept that is very much in synch withthe part of imprisonment. This results in a pretty clear cut understanding.

Let me post his part of imprisonment so you can see what i mean.

His part of imprisonment is at 24.33 capricorn or the 25th degree of cappy. Here's the symbol:

"A STORE FILLED WITH PRECIOUS ORIENTAL RUGS.

KEYNOTE: The use of cultural and artistic processes as means to enhance personal comfort and appreciation.

Corning after the preceding symbol this one brings us back to the material, yet esthetic, aspect of the benefits a society can bring its members. A "rug" always implied to some extent something on which a person stands or sits. It is a foundation for cultural "under-standing," and as such it can have a magical or sacred meaning, as in the case of prayer rugs. The "woman in a convent" probably knows only the bare floor, because her goal is one of transcendence, of surrendering comfort as well as cultural patterns. But to the social elite, or even to the oriental devotee praying to his god, society offers the relative comfort of beautiful rugs so he may meet the universe, not merely in terms of the support the natural soil gives, but protected by and securely established on the mental-spiritual as well as manual achievements of those who keep the cultural symbols alive.

This is the last symbol in the fifty-ninth five-fold sequence. It shows the beautiful products of dedicated and inspired group performance at the level of tradition. It emphasizes the value of RELIANCE ON TRADITION."

And we know that Yeshua broke down the barriers of religious traditions of the times. So He was very much imprisoned from "reliance on tradition" and "the use of cultural processes to enhance personal comfort."

And His part of As + Neptune - part of spirit calculates to be at 11.58 taurus, the twelfth degree of taurus.

"A YOUNG COUPLE WINDOW-SHOPPING.

KEYNOTE: The fascination of the youthful ego with the products of its culture.

The woman waters flowers in her garden: this is the inward-turned attention of the mind reveling in its own flowering. But now we have a scene symbolizing the outward longing of the ego, which has polarized itself and become "man-woman." The "man" aspect is that part of the ego which craves direct participation with society and the world of other egos. Fully to participate requires a special kind of substantiation - and we are still in this third scene, the Keyword of which is "Substantiation." Clothes, goods of various types, adornment, and working tools are needed. The consciousness surveys possibilities; they are defined by organic nature (personal abilities) and by the ambition to succeed in society.

This second stage is defined in contrast to the first. The ego becomes aware of what society has to offer. Its attention is turned outward. An interplay takes place between the individual and his culture. He is being molded by what he sees and by prospects for growth in social prestige. It is a phase of SOCIALIZATION OF DESIRES."

See how these two parts are so connected? A young couple goes window shopping and they stop at a store filled with precious oriental rugs. The first symbol stresses the use of cultural patterns as a mean to enhance one's comfort, the second symbol stresses the fascination of the ego with the products of culture!!!

I think wheras the part of imprisonment represents that which has become imprisoned from us, this part (As + nep - pos) symbolizes that which we might distance ourselves from. A concept that we imprison ourselves from, or a concept that we shun or resist. And its possible that this resistance is what leads to that concept that we are imprisoned from. Yeshua resisted societal ego gratification and thus, the personal comfort that arises out of making use societal tradition, was imprisoned from him.

I looked up mine as well and it seems to fit. Of course, it will take more research to get an overwhelming concensus.

It makes sense. I LIKE IT :smile:

I'll have to check mine before I give it a kiss though... but it looks like a winner right now.

piercethevale · Dec 2, 2016

Greetings, as Phoenix Venus and I have been delving back into work concerning the Astrological Parts and in particular those that include the Part of Soul/Spirit or the Part of Fortune as either the Significator or the Trigger, this has led to a tentative conclusion that we have a title for one of the unknowns.

That of which is derived from the formula, Asc. + Part of Soul/Spirit - Neptune.
She and I have calculated for our own natal charts, that of the "Yeshu'a/Jesus chart I oft state it to be a "Template for the understanding" and that of the "Zero Hour" chart for the natal of the USA.

As Asc. + Part of Fortune - Neptune = Part of Imprisonment, i.e. that which we are kept from...kept from embracing, accepting, utilizing, becoming a part of, etc. this Part so derived fro the same formula but placing the Part of Soul/Spirit in the position of the "Significator" instead of the Part of Fortune produce that which we find to be what one is naturally draw towards... it is , in a sense, the antithesis of a Part of Imprisonment...

I'm going to tentatively title it as a 'Part of Ally' and just use a one word title to keep it as simple as I can ...but if anyone can think of a more appropriate title and also finds that they concur with these findings of ours ... let me know.
I have added the proposed title, 'Ally', in red text to the listing in the first post.

piercethevale · Dec 2, 2016

Phoenix Venus and I are also caught up, presently, in a matter that will surely cause a noticeable cry from most all in the 'Traditional Astrology" camp and it concerns the Hermetic Lots and specifically those of the Lot of Victory and the Lot of Nemesis.

We have good reason to suspect that the formula for the Lot of Victory to have been corrupted and it matters little if it was by intent or whether it was an unintentional as the have the belief that the planet that once was but was shattered and now only remains as the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter...which when accepted changes the hierarchy of planetary rulership of the Signs into a logical algorithmic pattern.

This then assigns Jupiter the rulership of Capricorn which is 'Earth Above the Earth' and represents mountains, which can be easily understood as earth being given expansion outward, growth outward, and goats are an animal to be found in mountainous terrain (Taurus is 'Earth On the Earth' and represents the plains, and the Bull and the bovine creatures are animals of the plains. Virgo is 'Earth Below the Earth' and represents the caves and caverns not unlike wombs)

It also assigns Jupiter the rulership of Aquarius and Jupiter as the ruler of Aquarius makes exponentially more sense than Saturn as its' ruler. ..and Aquarius is Air above the Earth, the upper Atmosphere and is air expansive, air becomes thinner at high altitudes because it has expanded and as the upper atmosphere it is then 'Air Above the Earth', it is that which carries the rains and hence gives the explanation as to why Aquarius has been known as "The Water Bearer'... and it is in turn followed by the Sign of Pisces which is 'Water Above the Earth' and represents the Rain, without which there would be no rivers, streams and the like. (Cancer is Water on the Earth and not only represents the Oceans but all lakes rivers and anything else that is a body of water upon the earth...glaciers and snowfall for that matter as well. Scorpio Water Below the Earth and represents springs and underground rivers and the like.... and springs are usually the cause of swamps.)

So by this theory as such, as the patter of the Hermetic Lots is an alternating algorithm, is as the following.

Asc. + :moon:

-

= Lot of Fortune

Asc. + :sun:

-

= Lot of Soul/Spirit

Asc. + :parsfortunae:

-

= Lot of Necessity

Asc. + :venus:

- Lot of Soul = Lot of Eros

Asc. + :parsfortunae:

-

= Lot of Courage

So, we then replace Jupiter as the "Significator" in the follow formula with the lost planet but reserving the tile of the result for that which Jupiter will yet produce.

Asc. + lost planet - Lot of Soul/Spirit = ?

...and now for Jupiter, while keeping with the pattern...

Asc. + :parsfortunae:

-

= Lot of Victory

...which does produce Sabian Symbols for the four Lots we derived, from the four aforementioned sources, that make a lot more sense as being symbolic of what I can more easily see and comprehend as being that which would provide "victory".

As it stands under the present accepted formula the Lot of Victory for the 'Zero Hour" USA natal chart calcs. to be at 09* :aquarius:

57' 37" which has a Sabian Symbol of; (a Symbol I am very familiar with as this degree also just so happens to be that of my natal Part of Soul) (ibid.)

"AQUARIUS 10°: A MAN WHO HAD FOR A TIME BECOME THE EMBODIMENT OF A POPULAR IDEAL IS MADE TO REALIZE THAT AS A PERSON HE IS NOT THIS IDEAL.
KEYNOTE: The need to deal with human beings as persons rather than as screens upon which one projects one's dream and ideal.
Here we have a final statement on the relationship between mental-spiritual vision and living reality, between persons and the ideal they appear to incarnate, between the 'great lover Image' and one's need for love — a love his presence stimulated and aroused. The 'star' on the movie screen is not the actual person. The star's popularity fades away, the person remains. What has this episode of popularity actually done to the person? This is a question that can be applied to a great variety of circumstances.
This fifth symbol in the sixty-second sequence brings to our attention an issue that is basic and may confront us in various forms. Person versus archetype. This can mean a critical need for SELF-REVALUATION."

Which I have no difficulty seeing that it is symbolic of my Part of Soul I find it to be somewhat queswtionable as being symbolic of a Lot of Victory for the United States. Should we then admit that this nation is not the "Land of the Free" nor the "Land of Liberty and Justice for All", it stands to reason presently. Or that the United States is no longer though some say it never ws nor was intended to be "A Christian nation"... president Obama would surely like us all to believe that. But, since the day it was founded? I don't see it nor will I accept that.

By this other formula as producing possibly a Lot of Victory it calcs. to be at 11* :virgo:

23' 57" and that is the same sign and degree of the USA's natal Part of Ancestral Heritage. (ibid.)

"VIRGO 12°: AFTER THE WEDDING, THE GROOM SNATCHES THE VEIL AWAY FROM HIS BRIDE.

KEYNOTE: The penetrating and unveiling power of the trained mind.

In contrast to the preceding symbol we have now a scene stressing a physical action with psychological and/or spiritual overtones. In ancient cosmologies the male god often appears in three roles as son, husband and father of the woman element of nature. Nature is fulfilled by the human mind and will that overcome her; she resists only better to be subdued by the power that transcends her, and by transcending her gives her a spiritual meaning. The element of 'training' in the symbolic scene comes from the fact that there has been a marriage ritual; thus the sociocultural factor is in the background. The teacher-guru is here the priest who has performed the ritual.

At this second stage the rules are reversed, the masculine element assuming the dynamic positive part in the great play of polarity. The masculine act balances the feminine dream visualization. The Keyword is UNVEILING. There can also be an unveiling of mysteries, long protected by secrecy.

That I can easily enough see as being symbolic of what would bring a Victory to the nation... but know that these are to be taken in a spiritual sense, first and foremost, and as for becoming 'Spiritually Victorious" I can totally see it as being such symbolically.

Where as the Lot so derived from the present formula for the Yeshu'a/Jesus natal chart is the first degree of Gemini being in the 1st degree of Gemini; (ibid.)

"GEMINI 1°: A GLASS-BOTTOMED BOAT REVEALS UNDERSEA WONDERS.
KEYNOTE: The revelation of unconscious energies and submerged psychic structures.
(Keyword) !"...A NEW DIMENSION OF REALITY is perceived by the earnest inquirer."

The proposed formula produced at the 6th degree of Capricorn the following ; (ibid.)

"CAPRICORN 6°: TEN LOGS LIE UNDER AN ARCHWAY LEADING TO DARKER WOODS.

KEYNOTE: The need to complete any undertaking before seeking entrance to whatever is to be found beyond.

Number 10 is a symbol of completion; it symbolizes even more the revelation of a new series of activities just ahead. Yet unless the concluded series is brought to some degree of fulfillment, nothing truly significant is likely to be accomplished by a restless reaching out toward the as-yet-unknown. Number 10 is a symbol of germination, but the seed (Number 9) must have matured well. No natural process can be accelerated safely beyond certain limits.

This represents the first stage in the fifty-sixth five-fold sequence. It establishes a foundation for what will follow. Here man reaches a THRESHOLD in which he may have to pause in order to safeguard his further advance.

It works for me...

I'll get back to this subject in a couple of days. I will be assisting a friend tomorrow and won't have time to do any writing.
I'll be back though with a few more examples in support of this theory.
I won't go changing anything on the list as yet or even put an alternative title as suggestion next to the Lot of Victory until more charts have been studied as to what can be found from comparisons using one formula and that from the other. I'll also discuss the Hermetic Lot of Nemesis aka the part of Sudden Advancement.

Comments and, or, suggestion are certainly welcome and encouraged but what I'd really like to see is someone post what they find in comparison for the two as from their own natal chart or the chart that is of a well known personage and accepted as a valid natal chart for that person.

to be continued...
ptv

"

CapAquaPis · Dec 4, 2016

Parts of conception, pregnancy and/or childbirth: 8' Scorpio and 13' Capricorn, as well 4' Virgo. There is a cycle of "favorable" birthdates: 6' Libra, 10' Sag, 15' Aqua, 17' Pisces, 19' Aries, 21' Taurus, 23' Gemini, 0' Cancer and 2' Leo. If the planets Mercury, Venus and Mars is in the 8' degree Scorpio, indicators of bad luck associated with gestation or postnatal health are indicated. For the Moon and ascendant, there is significance relating to infants and parenthood, since the moon represents maternity, and ascendant on what you would be good in.

JUPITERASC · Dec 4, 2016

CapAquaPis said:
Parts of conception, pregnancy and/or childbirth: 8' Scorpio and 13' Capricorn, as well 4' Virgo.
There is a cycle of "favorable" birthdates: 6' Libra, 10' Sag, 15' Aqua, 17' Pisces, 19' Aries, 21' Taurus, 23' Gemini, 0' Cancer and 2' Leo.
If the planets Mercury, Venus and Mars is in the 8' degree Scorpio,
indicators of bad luck associated with gestation or postnatal health are indicated.
For the Moon and ascendant, there is significance relating to infants and parenthood,
since the moon represents maternity, and ascendant on what you would be good in.

'.....Jupiter indicates childbearing....'

written in THE ANTHOLOGY two thousand years ago by Vettius Valens
FREE pdf translation from original Ancient Greek by Professor Riley CSU
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf

CapAquaPis · Dec 12, 2016

JUPITERASC said:
'.....Jupiter indicates childbearing....'

written in THE ANTHOLOGY two thousand years ago by Vettius Valens
FREE pdf translation from original Ancient Greek by Professor Riley CSU
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf

My Jupiter/Mars/Saturn conjunction in Virgo (3rd)...may have to do with my fetish for pregnant women, in addition to Aquarius Sun/Moon (8th)+Cancer rising. Earth signs like Virgo are thought to gave people with a strong Virgo element a fascination with a pregnant woman's physique.

7' Cancer (June 29th?) or the day of St. Margaret of Antioch, the patron saint of expectant mothers is thought to be a favorable date of childbirth, a week after the Summer solstice (northern hemisphere) and 2 weeks after 23' Gemini.

Today is St. (Virgin) Mary (de Guadalupe), patron saint of Mexico, Mexican-Americans, North (and South) America with the entire western hemisphere, and the mother of Jesus Christ. It's within the sign of Sagittarius season and the symbol of Pisces, both signs associated with the planet Jupiter.

piercethevale · Dec 18, 2016

I added Asc. + Cusp 7th - Saturn to the list as another formula for a Part of Divorce. We now have two listed as such.
A note of thanks here to member Dubyadude for supplying us with that information.

Astrological Parts. Known and Unknown...a project

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