Are outer planets generational or personal?

dr. farr

Well-known member
I use a great deal from Hellenistic, Traditional and even Vedic astrological traditions: but I am glad to also consider Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and-to me-they have proved their value in delineative and predictive work on many occasions.

Only thing is that I have come to consider the outers as combination-quality influences, rather than pure influences (such as the 7 traditional planets represent) In this I somewhat share the attitude of BobZemco, ie, that the outers are much like the fixed stars in their input to a given horoscopic chart. I realy don't much go with the "higher octave" explanation given by many Modernists regarding the outer planets: for me, each outer represents a combination of the following influences (by combination I pretty much mean that they can be read/delineated as conjunctions of the respective component planets):

Uranus = Mercury + Mars (and alchemico-elementally I consider it to represnt "air of earth")

Neptune = Venus, Moon and Jupiter (and alchemico-elementally I consider it to represent "water of earth")

Pluto = Mars + Saturn, with a strong (mostly disruptive) Sun underpinning (and alchemico-elementally I consider it represent "fire of earth")
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I use a great deal from Hellenistic, Traditional and even Vedic astrological traditions: but I am glad to also consider Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and-to me-they have proved their value in delineative and predictive work on many occasions.

Only thing is that I have come to consider the outers as combination-quality influences, rather than pure influences (such as the 7 traditional planets represent) In this I somewhat share the attitude of BobZemco, ie, that the outers are much like the fixed stars in their input to a given horoscopic chart. I realy don't much go with the "higher octave" explanation given by many Modernists regarding the outer planets: for me, each outer represents a combination of the following influences (by combination I pretty much mean that they can be read/delineated as conjunctions of the respective component planets):

Uranus = Mercury + Mars (and alchemico-elementally I consider it to represnt "air of earth")

Neptune = Venus, Moon and Jupiter (and alchemico-elementally I consider it to represent "water of earth")

Pluto = Mars + Saturn, with a strong (mostly disruptive) Sun underpinning (and alchemico-elementally I consider it represent "fire of earth")
dr. farr what are your sources for these 'delineations for the outer planets' (as well as BobZemco who in fact has stated on numerous posts that he does not use them for Traditional delineation BUT IF HE DID then that is how he would use them in delineation - which is rather different from using the outers routinely. In any event BobZemco suddenly vanished from the forum last year and has not been heard from since, so read his posts using the 'search' function for clarity on this matter) in fact here is a link to the "Where is BobZemco thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42191 :smile:
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Mr Zemco mentioned his consideration of the outers as like fixed stars, in a couple of his posts-however he did not use them in practice EXCEPT in mundane delineations.

My source for my interpretation of the nature of the outers is:myself and my own expriences! However, the alchemico/elemental affinities are taken from a current alchemical stream of thought/practice, and is connected with the same esoteric group I have referenced in my posts about "the three sealings" and the "blood line karma" concepts, on other threads.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Mr Zemco mentioned his consideration of the outers as like fixed stars, in a couple of his posts-however he did not use them in practice EXCEPT in mundane delineations.

My source for my interpretation of the nature of the outers is:myself and my own expriences! However, the alchemico/elemental affinities are taken from a current alchemical stream of thought/practice, and is connected with the same esoteric group I have referenced in my posts about "the three sealings" and the "blood line karma" concepts, on other threads.
Nevertheless Pluto was only discovered in 1930, Neptune in 1846 and Uranus in 1781 - which astrologically speaking is remarkably recent in comparison with the delineation of Mercury by Vettius Valens as long ago as almost two thousand years - thus:

Mercury's nature is to contest and to destabilize :smile:

 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Ah, I think maybe they were known long before the synthesis of Hellenistic astrology, by a previous advanced civilization, and when those indications became lost they remained as a shadow in the myths (from all over the ancient world) of the 3 Fates!
Even in Vedic we find "shadow planets" called Mandi and Gulika, which to an extent fulfill the role similar to the outers in Western-and these "pseudo-planets" of jyotish are described right back in the earliest Vedic astrological literature.

....however, we have entered the realm of speculation and esotericism here: you want to discount the outers, fine-more power to you; I, however, am quite thankful for my knowledge and understanding of these "sons of Saturn"...:devil:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ah, I think maybe they were known long before the synthesis of Hellenistic astrology, by a previous advanced civilization, and when those indications became lost they remained as a shadow in the myths (from all over the ancient world) of the 3 Fates!
Even in Vedic we find "shadow planets" called Mandi and Gulika, which to an extent fulfill the role similar to the outers in Western-and these "pseudo-planets" of jyotish are described right back in the earliest Vedic astrological literature.

....however, we have entered the realm of speculation and esotericism here: you want to discount the outers, fine-more power to you; I, however, am quite thankful for my knowledge and understanding of these "sons of Saturn"...:devil:
Enough of the shape shifting dr. hybrid! - I am well aware that the outer planets were most probably known MANY thousands of years ago - in fact I have viewed facsimiles of cuneiform as well as Sumerian tablets that clearly indicate the likelihood. Nevertheless, as you say we are in the realm of speculation since there are no written horoscope delineations from thousands of years ago referring specifically to the outers - therefore IMO it's all guesswork currently with the outers. Perhaps archaeologists shall find ancient delineations of the outers at some stage, but thus far they have not.

Therefore dr. farr we are indeed in a realm of speculation where anyone can have an opinion on the matter since there is no reliable longstanding evidence comparable to that we have in relation to Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn
:smile:
 

tokyo.lights

Well-known member
No, they are not "just *poof* gone" for modern astrologers. We ustill use them extensively. They are not part of traditional western or Vedic astrology, although some traditionalists do use them.
So how do people decide which to follow? I can understand choosing whichever works for you, but what if BOTH have worked for you? I've tried verdic in the past, about five years ago for prediction...at the time I dismissed it as prediction using (modern) astrology has failed me (or maybe I'm just bad at it lol), but verdic turned out pretty accurate in that instance. However, modern has had its moments as well. Like when Pluto enters a house, boy does it make itself known!!:pinched: I have a mental image of it busting into a room, chest puffed up proclaiming "I'm here!!" , strolling around knocking everything down. Hmmm...modern or traditional....I don't know which one I prefer!! :lol:
 

waybread

Well-known member
First of all, any planet discovered in the 1780s or 1840s is hardly a "newcomer" on the astrological scene. Even Pluto, discovered more than 80 years ago, was discovered sufficiently long ago that modern astrologers have some sense of what it is up to, especially in this day of modern telecommunications, when astrological communication transmits so quickly.

Second, it is pretty clear that the really ancient delineations which are at the root of any astrology were based less on astrologers' practical experience than on idealized models, based upon religious or philosophical commitments (Barton, Ancient Astrology, 136-7.) By the time JupiterAsc's hero Vettius Valens came along in the 2nd century AD, Mars as a malefic (for example) was not only taken-for-granted but has a lineage going straight back to ancient Babylonian omen-literature. This was not based on birth-chart reading, but on what we today would call mundane astrology.

Indeed, some astrologers (or their later translators and copyists) stated that their astrology did not come from their own personal experience or the personal experience of their teachers, but from the holy wise men of ancient Egypt or even from the gods themselves. (For example, Dorotheus, Carmen Astrologicum V:1; and Firmicus Maternus, Matheseos Libri VIII, III preface, 1; and IV preface.)

Third, astrology has always added new "bytes". At some point in astrology's past, each of the new sensitive points or calculations was brand-new. In antiquity, the period between the introduction of Babylonian omen-readings to horoscopic natal chart reading was comparatively brief, as well.

Where astrologers relied more on their personal experience than on some kind of deposit of faith, presumably over the course of two centuries or 80 years, they figured out how to apply new information.

Fourth, some astrology that really doesn't seem to work well gets dropped. Psychological astrology was the big rage 40 years ago; less so today. I never found the idea of outer planets as higher "octaves" of inner planets to be very helpful. Vettius Valens's lurid descriptions of evil signs (Anthologies I:2) don't show up in most handbooks on astrology, including the recent ones on traditional astrology like Avelar and Rebeiro, On the Heavenly Spheres.

tokyo.lights, I see no reason not to be eclectic! On the other hand, after a period of experimentation you may find that one branch of astrology just seems to work best for you. The idea that there is only one "correct" way to do astrology has not been the case for the past 2000 years.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tokyo.lights, since Valens' major work “The Anthology” is the longest and most detailed treatise on astrology which has survived from the period 150 to 175 those who scoff at it are simply naive: particularly those scoffers who have not even attempted to experiment with the ancient techniques Vettius Valens chronicled and/or read Valens available works in their entirety!:smile:

A working professional astrologer, Valens includes over a hundred sample charts from his case files in the Anthology which is

o
bviously of great value in piecing together actual working techniques of the time.

Valens' work is also important
because he cites the views of a number of earlier authors and authorities who would otherwise be unknown. The fragments from works attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris, survive mainly through direct quotations in Valens' work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens

IMO
Since Valens chronicles the techniques of astrologers preceding him by more than three hundred years

- furthermore those astrologers themselves were using techniques from their predecessors


clearly Vettius Valens "The Anthology" is a goldmine of ancient techniques thousands of years old.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920

Medieval and Traditional methods are clearly derived from Hellenistic techniques and modern astrology could not even exist without ancient astrology on which it is firmly based and entirely dependent.


tolyo.lights - IMO if both tropical and sidereal work for you then why would you not experiment with both? :smile:
 
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Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Ah, I think maybe they were known long before the synthesis of Hellenistic astrology, by a previous advanced civilization, and when those indications became lost they remained as a shadow in the myths (from all over the ancient world) of the 3 Fates!
Even in Vedic we find "shadow planets" called Mandi and Gulika, which to an extent fulfill the role similar to the outers in Western-and these "pseudo-planets" of jyotish are described right back in the earliest Vedic astrological literature.

....however, we have entered the realm of speculation and esotericism here: you want to discount the outers, fine-more power to you; I, however, am quite thankful for my knowledge and understanding of these "sons of Saturn"...:devil:

What about all the other dwarf planets that are the same size as or bigger than Pluto?

First of all, any planet discovered in the 1780s or 1840s is hardly a "newcomer" on the astrological scene. Even Pluto, discovered more than 80 years ago, was discovered sufficiently long ago that modern astrologers have some sense of what it is up to, especially in this day of modern telecommunications, when astrological communication transmits so quickly.

Second, it is pretty clear that the really ancient delineations which are at the root of any astrology were based less on astrologers' practical experience than on idealized models, based upon religious or philosophical commitments (Barton, Ancient Astrology, 136-7.)...

Indeed, some astrologers (or their later translators and copyists) stated that their astrology did not come from their own personal experience or the personal experience of their teachers, but from the holy wise men of ancient Egypt or even from the gods themselves. (For example, Dorotheus, Carmen Astrologicum V:1; and Firmicus Maternus, Matheseos Libri VIII, III preface, 1; and IV preface.)

...

Where astrologers relied more on their personal experience than on some kind of deposit of faith, presumably over the course of two centuries or 80 years, they figured out how to apply new information.

Fourth, some astrology that really doesn't seem to work well gets dropped. ...

If those deposits of faith worked well in order to not get dropped, then super!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
First of all, any planet discovered in the 1780s or 1840s is hardly a "newcomer" on the astrological scene.

So how many planets were "discovered in the 1780's or 1840's"? Two

1. Uranus was discovered 13 March 1781

2. Neptune was discovered 23 September 1846.

Tens of thousands of years since Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were discovered.

Therefore Uranus, Neptune and Pluto ARE mere newcomers to the astrological scene:smile:
Even Pluto, discovered more than 80 years ago, was discovered sufficiently long ago that modern astrologers have some sense of what it is up to, especially in this day of modern telecommunications, when astrological communication transmits so quickly.
"More than eighty years ago?" OK Pluto was discovered 18 February 1930 so that's 82 years ago then

You say "modern astrologers have some sense of what Pluto is up to" - what are your reliable data sources for this claim?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian, there are astrologers who work extensively with asteroids-- you may know the work of an astrologer named Demetra George. Another one called Juan Revilla has worked on the centaurs. Philip Sedgwick is another astrologer who works with trans-Plutonians. Ceres is really interesting. Formerly classified as an asteroid, she was "upgraded" to dwarf planet status by astronomers in 2006. She does show up prominently in the charts of some domestic divas like Martha Stewart.

You know, I sometimes wonder how well that "deposit of faith" has served astrologers. Accuracy of chart-readings and predictions is a huge problem in astrology.

For me, the key work is "experiment!" Keep an open mind. See if heavenly bodies beyond the Big Seven have explanatory value. A background in mythology is a big asset here.

JA, the idea that a time span of over 230 to 80 years is insufficient to get a sense of how outer planets work in astrology makes no sense to me. Look at all the discoveries and inventions on the planet since 1781-- or since 1930. People have had all kinds of time to figure out how the internal combustion engine works, invent the light bulb or to advance modern medicine. Many discoveries and inventions are far more recent than 1930 (like the computer with which you transmit your messages,) yet computer engineers and other smart people have no trouble in understanding how they work. The notion that somehow astrologers are too dim-witted to figure out how the outer planets work in horoscopes over a period of decades or even centuries is a sad commentary.

Pick up any modern astrology handbook or cookbook from the past 40 years, and you will see plenty of information on Pluto. They are too numerous to mention. But we might start with Robert Hand, Planets in Youth and Planets in Transit. You might also look at the books specifically on Pluto by Steven Forrest and Donna Cunningham.

JA, astrology didn't exist 10,000 years ago. We might point to different cultures' star-lore or "cultural astronomy" (most of which, 8000 years BP would come from archaeological evidence.) But it was nothing like horoscopic astrology, even of the sort that developed in Babylon.

I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW. (He is kind of a holy man to you.) It is OK to lighten up occasionally about the history of astrology. Incidentally, I would love to see you use his work in actual chart interpretations.

And yes, 82 years is "more than 80 years" in my book.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
...astrology didn't exist 10,000 years ago.

You cannot prove that :smile:

......the idea that a time span of over 230 to 80 years is insufficient to get a sense of how outer planets work in astrology makes no sense to me. The notion that somehow astrologers are too dim-witted to figure out how the outer planets work in horoscopes over a period of decades or even centuries is a sad commentary.

Not so sad when you realize that 80 years is not even sufficient time for Uranus to complete one orbit of the Sun (84.3 years = one Uranus orbit of the Sun).

Cheer up! Neptune requires 164.79 years to orbit the Sun so after 230 years there's only another one hundred years to wait until Neptune completes circuit number 2!!

Not so upsetting when you consider that after as many as 230 years Pluto still has not completed even one orbit of the Sun and requires another 17.7 years in order to do so. (247.7 years = one Pluto orbit of the Sun) :smile:


Pick up any modern astrology handbook or cookbook from the past 40 years, and you will see plenty of information on Pluto. They are too numerous to mention.

Those are
guesswork of recent origin - not 'information'

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the complex techniques tried and tested over thousands of years as chronicled by Vettius Valens - or you would not seriously compare his work with that of 'any astrological cookbook' - how funny!
:smile:

Incidentally, I would love to see you use his work in actual chart interpretations..
Incidentally, it is strange that you - a retired academic who has often stated they have access to a vast academic library - cannot find sufficient information so that you can do your own actual chart interpretations using the techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens. Here is a link to a website where you may purchase any number of books that explain Hellenistic astrological delineations http://www.projecthindsight.com/

I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW.

I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing.


(He is kind of a holy man to you.)
You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
You cannot prove that :smile:

JA, if you look at the way the fields of archaeology and history work, it is pretty simple. If there is no evidence at Time T, T+1, T+2, T=3, &c. that something exists in either archaeological sites or textual sources, but it does show up at time T+n and thereafter, then we assume that the thing was developed at some point between those two time periods. In fact the burden of proof would be on someone to show that astrology (vs. star-lore) existed 10,000 years ago. Where is your evidence?

Moreover, you can usually trace developmental trends with ideas or artefacts of long-standing. They tend to show up in less-developed ways and then undergo a period of evolution. (Although occasionally the reverse happens.)

Not so sad when you realize that 80 years is not even sufficient time for Uranus to complete one orbit of the Sun (84.3 years = one Uranus orbit of the Sun).

Cheer up! Neptune requires 164.79 years to orbit the Sun so after 230 years there's only another one hundred years to wait until Neptune completes circuit number 2!!

Not so upsetting when you consider that after as many as 230 years Pluto still has not completed even one orbit of the Sun and requires another 17.7 years in order to do so. (247.7 years = one Pluto orbit of the Sun) :smile:


Those are guesswork of recent origin - not 'information'

Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate.

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the complex techniques tried and tested over thousands of years as chronicled by Vettius Valens - or you would not seriously compare his work with that of 'any astrological cookbook' - how funny! :smile:

Incidentally, it is strange that you - a retired academic who has often stated they have access to a vast academic library - cannot find sufficient information so that you can do your own actual chart interpretations using the techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens. Here is a link to a website where you may purchase any number of books that explain Hellenistic astrological delineations http://www.projecthindsight.com/

I don't know how you came up with this assertion, JA, but I find it pathetic. I have yet to see you attempt a chart interpretation using Valens, but if you have done so, please provide the link. I have the Riley provisional interpretation and refer to it extensively. Not because I wish to practice his form of astrology, but because of my interest in the history of ancient astrology. Frankly, if you search Vettius Valens on an academic data base, you won't find much there. I have done this. I would refer you to the work of Otto Neugebauer and his associates, who found that each of Valens's charts did correspond to actual dates.

Valens gets into a number of topics that I do not wish to practice, like his lengthy material on predicting length of life and manner of death. Are these methods that you practice?


I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing.

JA, don't put words in my mouth. It is OK to lighten up occasionally. Why have you invested so much ego in Valens?

You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks :smile:

Negatory, JA. Yet if you think so, why the smiley button? Is this intended as a "gotcha!" or are you actually pleased about something?
 
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tokyo.lights

Well-known member
tokyo.lights, I see no reason not to be eclectic! On the other hand, after a period of experimentation you may find that one branch of astrology just seems to work best for you. The idea that there is only one "correct" way to do astrology has not been the case for the past 2000 years.
Yeah sounds good to me. I'll just experiment with everything until I make up my mind on what works for me:joyful: should be fun/interesting!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
if you look at the way the fields of archaeology and history work, it is pretty simple. If there is no evidence at Time T, T+1, T+2, T=3, &c. that something exists in either archaeological sites or textual sources, but it does show up at time T+n and thereafter, then we assume that the thing was developed at some point between those two time periods. In fact the burden of proof would be on someone to show that astrology (vs. star-lore) existed 10,000 years ago. Where is your evidence?

Moreover, you can usually trace developmental trends with ideas or artefacts of long-standing. They tend to show up in less-developed ways and then undergo a period of evolution. (Although occasionally the reverse happens.)
Simply because evidence either no longer exists - or alternatively has not yet been discovered - does not necessarily mean that the evidence in question never existed at all. :smile:
Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate.

By your own academic standards, you have no evidence for your foregoing contention.

Furthermore, having refused to accept anything other than tangible evidence as proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,000 BC you nevertheless insist that - despite the absence of tangible, verifiable, peer reviewed, written/photographic/scientific evidence for the alleged sign location of the recently discovered outer planets prior to their discovery dates – you nevertheless continue to insist that their locations MAY be assumed by computer programs.

So while you can accept what is simply a notional location for the outer planets in 10,500 BC you nevertheless insist on written proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,500 BC. Interesting.

IMO Historians cannot assess destroyed evidence. Academic historians therefore invent theories to account for existing evidence, claiming that they somehow have greater authority than so-called 'amateur' historians whose credible theories are then routinely dismissed as 'non-academic'. Furthermore any academic disagreeing with their peer group is ostracized, an excellent example being that of John Marco Allegro and the Dead Sea Scrolls translations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIQVfmBEp8

A recent historical example:
When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both instantly vaporised and mostly destroyed by weapons of mass destruction in August 1945 priceless historical records vanished irretrievably.

Currently historic ancient artifacts including cuneiform texts, libraries of maps, books and other ancient written records in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are being irretrievably destroyed.

Academics then declare “There's no evidence”.

Destruction is caused not only by war but also by natural disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, mudslides, hurricanes and tornadoes: then when - for whatever reason - evidence has been obliterated, academic historians glibly assert 'there is no proof' that the particular evidence in question was ever in existence.
:smile:
I don't know how you came up with this assertion, JA, but I find it pathetic. I have yet to see you attempt a chart interpretation using Valens, but if you have done so, please provide the link. I have the Riley provisional interpretation and refer to it extensively. Not because I wish to practice his form of astrology, but because of my interest in the history of ancient astrology. Frankly, if you search Vettius Valens on an academic data base, you won't find much there. I have done this. I would refer you to the work of Otto Neugebauer and his associates, who found that each of Valens's charts did correspond to actual dates.

Valens gets into a number of topics that I do not wish to practice, like his lengthy material on predicting length of life and manner of death. Are these methods that you practice?
You frequently state that your interest is not only merely academic but also that you have no wish to practice Valens form of astrology and furthermore, that you disapprove of Valens techniques of predicting length of life and manner of death. Why would anyone undertake the time consuming and detailed task of delineating Valens for an academic who is simply not going to use those delineations or profit from them in any practical way astrologically? No member of this forum – and that includes yourself - is under any obligation to as you put it “attempt a chart interpretation using Valens” and you cannot demand that they do so. Members of this forum give their time freely and voluntarily and therefore can delineate as and when they personally choose and not when ordered to by someone who spends their time denigrating the source of their preferred astrological method.

Academic historians spend hours, months, years and lifetimes convincing other academics of the superiority of their particular theories. Unsurprisingly, academic theories are routinely replaced as new discoveries occur.

IMO While you may 'refer' me to any academic historian of your choice - if your interest in Vettius Valens is merely academic then pursue it in your own academic way. Alternatively there are plenty of academic level writings currently being produced by numerous authors including Robert Schmidt of project Hindsight which may be found at this link http://www.projecthindsight.com/
Why have you invested so much ego in Valens?
On the contrary, why are you so critical of my entirely reasonable interest in the works of Vettius Valens, a working astrologer practicing almost two thousand years ago (born February 8, 120 – c. 175) whose major work The Anthology is the longest and most detailed treatise on astrology which has survived from that period and is thus of great value in piecing together actual working techniques of the time? Valens' work is also important because he cites the views of a number of earlier authors and authorities who would otherwise be unknown. The fragments from works attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris, survive mainly through direct quotations in Valens' work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens
why the smiley button? Is this intended as a "gotcha!" or are you actually pleased about something?
Obviously, although your inference regarding smiley buttons is yet another thinly veiled attack on your part - nevertheless may you be happy, may you be well.:smile:
I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW.
I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing. :smile:
(He is kind of a holy man to you.)
You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
[attacking remark removed-moderator]

Let's start unpacking your assertions.

1. The meaning of "no evidence." Historical and archaeological conclusions work a bit like a legal case. Imagine a murder trial. We know there's a body, but "Whodunnit?" Nobody witnessed the murder so far as we know. Yet we find clues. We look at whether anybody had a motive for killing the victim. We look at whether anybody with a motive actually had the means to carry out the crime. Is there an alibi, if so? Were there eye-witnesses who would testify that they saw somebody with a motive and the means running away from the crime scene with blood on his shoes? This person may become the defendant. We weigh the evidence and try to make logical inferences. Depending upon the standard required for the charges in this case, the jury will have to decide whether the defendant is guilty or innocent based upon "the preponderance of the evidence" or "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Similarly, nobody living today was living 10,000 years ago. We have to base our assumptions about the origins of astrology based upon the preponderance of the evidence; or, if we are of a cautious nature, beyond a reasonable doubt.

And you will find careful archaeologists and historians writing conclusions like, "There is no evidence that X artefact was invented before date T." "The oldest date known on an existing artefact of type X is ca. 700 BCE." Then these scholars might cautiously speculate further based upon oblique lines of evidence or comparable discoveries.

But the "burden of proof" (to use another legal phrase) would be entirely upon someone to produce new evidence that a phenomenon or artefact existed long before there is any direct evidence of it, before we find the necessary antecedant conditions, or before we find any comparable developments.

Does evidence get destroyed through the passage of time? Sure it does. Moreover, some evidence that we would dearly love to find today doesn't exist because nobody bothered to record it at the time. Yet oftentimes you will find collateral types of existing evidence that allow you to make cautious conclusions about the presence or absence of a given phenomenon at a given time and place.

To use your Japanese nuclear bomb example, some archives destroyed in the blast cannot be reconconstructed. But we might look for a lot of collateral information in Japanese cities that were not destroyed during WWII.

2. Your "investment" in Vettius Valens. I didn't flatter myself that you would interpret a chart using Valens's techniques just to suit me, JA! LOL! Rather, since you revere his work, I thought you might have applied it on another thread on which I haven't participated (lots of these!) and that you might simply provide a link, if so. [attacking remark removed - moderator] If you have never applied Valens's techniques to horoscope interpretation either on this forum, or elsewhere, then I might question the basis of your strong confirmation of his techniques, however.

In my previous post, where did I "demand" that you produce a Valens type of reading? You seem to be putting words in my mouth. And no need to lecture me about people volunteering their time to read people's charts, JA! Many of my posts are of this nature.

Where did I ever deny the considerable importance of Valens work? I haven't and wouldn't. But hey, JA-- I am entitled to my own opinion, even when it varies from yours.

In terms of Valens predicting the native's length of life and manner of death, as we know, these were huge concerns in ancient times. The average life expectancy was low; and kinship was so important to people and politics so perilous for the elite, that the death of the pater familias could be a huge blow to a big household.

The fact that I personally choose not to deal in "death clock" astrology hardly means that I think badly of Valens for doing so. It simply means that a chunk of his work has no bearing on the kind of astrology I choose to practice. And yes, I do poke fun at his work from time to time. (As in "fun", JA.) Scoffing? Nah. Though I would love to take you by the hand and point out particular passages that are kind of laughable today. You might laugh at them, also.

But gosh, JA-- why is it that you are unwilling to lighten up about Vettius Valens? Why why let inferred criticism of him get your goat?

3. Replacement of older academic theories by newer ones. Yes, absolutely this happens a lot. It also happens in society as a whole. And so it should. For example, social scientists in the 19th century had theories about why women or people of colour were inferior to white males. Today we see through these prejudices for what they are. Also, as new and unexpected evidence comes on line, it causes scholars to rethink their previous theories. Some theories are a lot more robust than others, however.

[off topic goading remarks-moderator]
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
4. smiley button. I still don't understand why you insert so many of these. You don't seem happy. You are not trying to make me happy. What is their purpose for you?
You are funny! Obviously, your inference regarding smiley buttons is yet another thinly veiled attack on your part - nevertheless may you be happy, may you be well.:smile: Now, back to the subject - this thread concerns the topic of the outer planets being generational rather than personal :smile:
Simply because evidence either no longer exists - or alternatively has not yet been discovered - does not necessarily mean that the evidence in question never existed at all. By your own academic standards, you have no evidence for your contentions.

Furthermore, having refused to accept anything other than tangible evidence as proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,000 BC you nevertheless insist that - despite the absence of tangible, verifiable, peer reviewed, written/photographic/scientific evidence for the alleged sign location of the recently discovered outer planets prior to their discovery dates – you nevertheless continue to insist that their locations MAY be assumed by computer programs.

So while you can accept what is simply a notional location for the outer planets in 10,500 BC you nevertheless insist on written proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,500 BC. Interesting.

Furthermore any academic disagreeing with their peer group is ostracized, an excellent example being that of John Marco Allegro and the Dead Sea Scrolls translations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIQVfmBEp8

A recent historical example:
Currently historic ancient artifacts including cuneiform texts, libraries of maps, books and other ancient written records in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are being irretrievably destroyed.

Academics then declare “There's no evidence”.
:smile:
 
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wilsontc

Staff member
please get back on the subject, to all

All,

Please get back on subject. Focus on the problem not the person and if someone's posting style bothers you personally, either don't respond or put the person on "Ignore" so you don't have to see their posts any more. If any more off-topic personal attacks occur, I will start deleting posts.

Back on subject,

Tim
 
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