Discussion of Frank's Article Essential didnities

Is there a purpose for this?

Thankyou Frank for posting your well written Article on The Ed. Board.
Here is where the discussion of it can take place and the two posts are now linked:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17099
(Sorry about the typo in heading- should be *dignities* of course!)

Pallas-trine Mars and Mr Hyde: Unfortunately with the new format, I don't have the authorisation to *move* your posts from the Ed Board to here so I had to delete them.The Ed Board is only for Articles, a new thread must be opened in the relevant Board for the discussion.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Well, not that it's not well-written or that there's anything wrong with self-promotion, but it just seemed kind of presumptuous to assume that people would want to read a lecture, and a dated one at that, on a board or that we would need to, this is an astrology board already so I would guess that if people are posting here they either already have some background information of astrology or they know where they can get it. Besides, AstrologyWeekly already has astrology tutorials.

If the discussion is going to be here, shouldn't you close the other thread, Lilly? The QR things are still viewable on the other one.

I like the new templates, I'm using the "alauddin" one.

Pallas-trine-Mars said:

Well, not that it's not well-written or that there's anything wrong with self-promotion, but it just seemed kind of presumptuous to assume that people would want to read a lecture, and a dated one at that, on a board or that we would need to, this is an astrology board already so I would guess that if people are posting here they either already have some background information of astrology or they know where they can get it. Besides, AstrologyWeekly already has astrology tutorials.

If the discussion is going to be here, shouldn't you close the other thread, Lilly? The QR things are still viewable on the other one.

I like the new templates, I'm using the "alauddin" one.

Click to expand...

Why would it be presumptuous for someone to submit an article to the education board?
Isn't that what it is set up for?

And it looks like it has been read over 40 times already. So apparently there is an audience for it.

mr.hyde said:

Hey Katydid, my problem with this article is not like Pallas-trine-Mars just said....That its bad written or something, the problem i have with this is that in the whole The Education i see article written by Shinning Ray 1604 posts / Archergirl 2725 posts / lillyjgc 1641 posts / Aquarius7000 1514 posts....... and here comes Frank with 3 post (he just registered 5 min before) and copies this article from his site and post it here.BTW the 40 views are All Mr.Hydes work (i could not believe it)Dont you think its kind of strange ??

Click to expand...

Well, I have no problem with it because I read his introductory post beforehand. He is a speaker and lecturer at ISAR and AFA and an author. So I was happy to have him onboard.
Especially because he specializes in classical astrology and how to merge it with modern.
I think the Education Board is open to anyone who has an interesting aticle or lecture ready to post.

Mr Hyde,
I love your new cartoon sig. Very Nice.

well i took something out of it, Thanks for the definition on peregrine! that helped alot, now i know what to do with those clueless things.

besides why does it matter post count or seniority?

A bum with a great idea is still a great idea, Or a 80 year old man studying astrology since 20, just learning to use a computer... you never know, Don't discredit wisdom based on the source, until you've thought the concept through your self.

One of the reasons I posted the article early on was so people would know where i was coming from astrologically. Much of my other work refers to material in that article. In fact, many of my lectures include a short introductory section that goes over that same material.

Think of it as a little introduction on the "Frank Way" to do things.

Well Frank, most of us appreciate what you've donated to the Ed Board.There's no requirement that a contributor to the Ed Board must have a certain post count before being eligible! In fact one's post count is not an indication of anything other than *that a person posts a lot* and says nothing about the quality of the posts.
Also pallas and Mr Hyde you've both been here long enough to know not to post your comments ON the Ed Board. We always create a link from there to another Board.
I really can't see what your problem is.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Re: Essential Dignities and the Web of Rulership

Thanks this is a very useful article. Looking forward to more such posts from you.

Ooh, I didn't know we had a new celebrity! Haha welcome all the same, Frank.

charmvirgo said:

To not realise that a planet rules over two signs is to lose half the qualities of that planet.

Click to expand...

That's the thing, planets only have ONE nature. That nature is complex, but it doesn't change between signs, houses, sects, direction, specified degrees or anything like that. Those things can affect how easily the planets energy is utilized and possibly indicate obstacles to the planet, but nothing changes a planet's nature or the things it's after.

For instance Saturn in Capricorn is like Saturn by itself: It's skeptical, works alone, but Saturn in Libra takes on some of the optimistic, social and romantic -- but still cool and serious nature of Libra and it's tendency for the negative is tempered. Saturn is still Saturn, but is a bit different because of the sign it's in, not of its own doing. But Saturn never has the bold, deeply in need of variety, friends and erratic nature common in Aquarius, unless aspected by some other planet to indicate that Saturn's nature would be used for these things in cooperation with that planet.

At least in the case of Aquarius, Saturn's diurnal and according to just about all ancient astrologer's, prefered sign, the stubbornness and coolness is probably contributed more to that fixed sign by Saturn's than Uranus.

Pallas-trine-Mars said:

That's the thing, planets only have ONE nature. That nature is complex, but it doesn't change between signs, houses, sects, direction, specified degrees or anything like that.

Click to expand...

I would disagree with this statement and give the example of normally Benefic planets becoming functional Malefics and normally Malefic planets becoming functional benefics depending on individual charts and configurations.

Frank said:

I would disagree with this statement and give the example of normally Benefic planets becoming functional Malefics and normally Malefic planets becoming functional benefics depending on individual charts and configurations.

Click to expand...

Oh, so now we're discussing Vedic, are we?! Well, I think benefic and malefic natures remain the same, it's just that the planet can't utilize it well. One example is Capricorn, fall of Jupiter which is also a functional malefic to that sign. Capricorn is a minimal nature, they don't aim high, desire great things or even lean to optimism because they know how fickle fortune can be and how easily life can take all of these things away or how a blessing, like a promotion at work can become a curse, such as having to be in charge of lay-offs and having to make increasingly difficult decisions which could have bigger consequences and possibly for even more people if the wrong ones are made.

Mars is a functional benefic to Cancer, the sign of its fall. Usually Cancer is considered a timid, sometimes vaccilating nature preferring safety, and this can cause people to underestimate them and devalue their needs. A little Mars energy and Cancer can begin to assert itself, stand up for its rights and protect what's theirs.

Then there's the weird cases like Mars and Venus being functional malefics to their non-moolatrikae (if that's a word ;P) signs. Mars is easy for me to understand, it just makes the already fixed, brooding, sensitive and jealous nature of Mars become even angrier and focused and fixated on that anger and because of the usually slothful nature of the sign Scorpio the anger has no outlet. Venus in Scorpio is bad also because Scorpio doesn't like having to play all of those games to pacify society and Scorpio becomes so jealous at the vague and fickle nature of Venus and retains those slights (I read somewhere that Venus in Scorpio likes to take this frustration out as humor).

Venus and Taurus is a little more tricky since so many astrologers take such an unanalytical approach to astrology and just decide Venus rules Taurus, so it's great there. But again, Venus can be very fickle, enticing you one moment, dumping you for the next person she lays her eyes on the next; this is bad for the stable and loyal Taurus which believes that if anything is important it will last. Taurus is also the sign of acquisition and having, meaning Venus can act even more like a gold-digging parasite than usual (it doesn't seem uncommon to hear musician with Venus in Taurus going on about getting money then getting the girls).

Then there's the really weird ones like Venus and Virgo, the sign of its fall but it's a functional benefic? And Pisces, the sign of its exaltation, but it's a functional malefic! Virgo can have self-esteem issues (probably caused by bad Venus experiences) and later focus on work to ignore their own desires feeling it can't work out for them, but they are romantics and they do want to succeed in love just as much as any other and they do enjoy it when they get the chances and courage to be part of it. Pisces (this one is hard to figure out!) can idealize romance so much and will definitely be disillusioned when they see things they might've turned their eye away from and like with Scorpio the scars remain long after. Impulsiveness could get them an STD. Succumbing to peer pressure. Too much usage of booze to "get lucky" (it is Venus' sixth house I guess, bad health)...

Of course if you ask real Vedic astrologers they'll tell you something different (and probably more about destiny than psychology), these are just some of my thoughts; can't wait to hear yours.

For those that don't know, the traditional planet that rules the 6th, 8th or 12th sign (if these signs are the planet's Moola Trikona, meaning preferred house to Vedic; the rationale is generally easy to understand, they usually perfer the planet of their own gender, Mercury's is Virgo because it can be there while the Sun's in Leo. Why the Moon's is Taurus and Gemini has no functional malefic I don't know) from another sign is considered a functional malefic. All others are functional benefics. I wonder if a planet should be considered a functional malefic in it's own 12 house as well (consider for instance Mars and Pisces, Sun and Cancer, Saturn and Sagittarius... Even modernly Pluto and Libra and Uranus and Capricorn... don't seem like very great matches to me)

I still say planets have but one personality.

No, we're not discussing Vedic.

(this is, of course, an astrological comment in a visual format)


Lillyjgc

To expand upon my assertion that Luminaries and Planets can have more than one nature, let's use one of my favorite metaphors - astrology as a language and the Luminaries and Planets are the verbs. Signs are adverbs. Houses are Nouns. Aspects are adjectives. As most metaphors are, it's imperfect, but a good way to think about theparts of the chart.

Let's take the verb "attack" for example. There are many differnt ways to attack. One can attack directly. Or indirectly, verbally, psychologically stealthily, savagely, professionally, disceetly, etc.

Yes, they are all attacks - but the nature of each is different.

Frank said:

No, we're not discussing Vedic.

Click to expand...

Uh, ok... I'm confused now, I've never heard of 'functional malefics and benefics' in Western astrology, can you explain please? Do you mean when a planet is slow, negatively aspected or in a debilitating sign or something?

The concept of functional benefics and malefics (although that specific term may not have been used) is and always has been prevalent in Hellenistic, Medieval, Classical, and other forms of astrology besides Vedic.

To elaborate, let's take a look at what William Lilly says in Book I of "Christian Astrology" [1647] about Saturn and Jupiter (his work is in the public domain - no copyright issues):

Saturn:
[Manners & Actions, when well dignified.] Then he is profound in Imagination, in his Acts severe, in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave, in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions austere.

Jupiter:
[WHEN ILL.] When Jupiter is unfortunate, then he wastes his Patrimony, suffers every one to cozen him, is Hypocritically Religious, Tenacious, and stiffe in maintaining false Tenents in Religion; he is Ignorant, Carelesse, nothing Delightfull in the love of his Friends; of a grosse, dull Capacity, Schismaticall, abating himself in all Companies, crooching and stooping where no necessity is.

----

If those excerpts don't confirm for someone that the Western astrological tradition shows that Malefics like Saturn can be functional Benefics and Benefics like Jupiter can be functional malefics, I don't know what else to say.

Frank, I very much appreciate your traditional astrology contribution as in this Forum the balance between Modern and Traditional is very un-equal.

Since I delved into Horary astrology, I slowly but surely have become more fascinated with the traditional view but dont know all the ins and outs. I read your article and could follow it well as I think I understand the dignities and debilities by now, but when I got to the part with the multiple dispositors explanation, I had to read slower and then re-read and I learned something new again. I am delighted that we finally have someone who shows us this approach to astrology even though I studied modern astrology. The more info we can get from a chart, the better!

Pallas-t-Mars,

You said:

but it just seemed kind of presumptuous to assume that people would want to read a lecture, and a dated one at that, on a board or that we would need to, this is an astrology board already so I would guess that if people are posting here they either already have some background information of astrology or they know where they can get it. Besides, AstrologyWeekly already has astrology tutorials.

Click to expand...

I think that you did not really grabbed the purpose of the Education Board when you wrote this. Of course the articles are written by members who already know about astrology. Newbies and those who are not experienced cannot post here!

This is an Education Board, specially designed for newbies and those members who have not yet enough basic knowledge, in order to learn the basics. The more complicated subjects, like the one Frank has posted, is for those who do know quite a lot of astrology, but want to learn more and Frank has given us more.

Finally, we have some astrology tutorials written by some members, but nothing about traditional astrology.

I have no difficulty at all in understanding that a benific planet can act malific and a malific planet can do good. I have always thought of this possibility. Everything has his opposite, so a good planet can show its negative side and vice versa. I believe that the planets can change their basic energy according to interference by other planets . I usually look at the aspects it gets and the background it has in order to see if the basic good qualities of a planet will indeed be expressed like they should or whether aspects/background can change it. Likewise with a malific planet. Placed in a good house, with the right background and well aspected, it can show courage (Mars) or nobility(Saturn), not always doom and gloom. I am not an intellectual and approach everything as simple as possible but it should be clear to me. That's all. And this is.

Starlink