Zonark
Well-known member
Subjectively true, yet there are degrees of power which individuals and groups have within ~the system~. It is prudent to be mindful of potential abuses of the system.
How we will all be spied upon by CIA and others
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
Subjectively true, yet there are degrees of power which individuals and groups have within ~the system~. It is prudent to be mindful of potential abuses of the system.
Zonark
Well-known member
Oh I don't plan on it stopping me from attempting to have children. It just makes me that much more vigilant.
While it is a bit annoying to be called naive, a sheeple etc, some 'conspiracy theorists' are just very frustrated with how lackadaisical most people seem to be when presented with what looks like compelling evidence of a problem to the ~conspiracy theorist~. It's a different sort of person that is more attuned to conspiracies, not a defective person either. The term conspiracy theorist has almost become a dirty word today and that in itself is a bit distressing for people like myself who look deeply into these things out of a heightened acuity toward the potential for things to go horribly wrong and a genuine desire to prevent those possibilities. It can get out of hand, sure, but I think that people can be far too dismissive and not at all reasonable about these sorts of things out of fear of being seen as a ~crazy conspiracy theorist~.
Monk
Premium Member
In the end i don't point to bad guys, it is highly complicated, but like all religions it is used both in the negative and positive, it would be funny noting how many conflicts have been produced in history, that the center point isn't Islamic, or Protestant or Catholic, but Hermetic....oops!
HISTORY MATTERS!!!!!
I'm not attacking the United States...it is a secret religion, we will start with America, but it won't finish there!
Links below:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo
Sorry it took time to make links work properly, sometimes it is my fault!
HISTORY MATTERS!!!!!
I'm not attacking the United States...it is a secret religion, we will start with America, but it won't finish there!
Links below:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo
Sorry it took time to make links work properly, sometimes it is my fault!
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Monk
Premium Member
Lets start with the carve up of Africa by countries started with the "Berlin Conference", Bismarck was involved, please note this started on 15th November 1884, link below, note date under "Bismarck's Role":-
http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his312/lectures/ber-cong.htm
At Berlin, by accurate astronomy at sunrise, Sirius was setting on 15th Nov.1884, graph on link:-
http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3983&mode=view
Just getting started, long way to go! I'll start a new thread on the mundane astrology section.
http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his312/lectures/ber-cong.htm
At Berlin, by accurate astronomy at sunrise, Sirius was setting on 15th Nov.1884, graph on link:-
http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3983&mode=view
Just getting started, long way to go! I'll start a new thread on the mundane astrology section.
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waybread
Well-known member
Zonark, people can make fun of my beliefs all they want. But it just staggers me to see people claim to have "the truth" when their evidence just doesn't hold up. I mean, you are the guy who claimed to have "widely known" evidence about the Rothschilds! When I looked into it, it just isn't there. Mightn't there be a chance you could be mistaken on other matters?
Yes, people are spying on you. But it isn't the US government unless you've engaged in politically questionable (to them) activities (like buddying-up with the Taliban); and even then, they don't act on their information very often.
Google is for sure spying on you, especially if you have a gmail account, post on youtube, order google books, or use Google as your search engine. Are you on Facebook? Any hacker can find out a lot about people on Facebook. And have you heard the latest on drones the size of humming birds that private enterprises would love to have circling over your head?
The irony with the US government controlling your life, of course, is that most of the earth's 7 billion people do not live in the US. And that China, North Korea, and probably Russia spy on US "secret" government information through computer hacking. So your data is now, as I write, being digested in some office in Beijing.
I think people who love conspiracy theories should read more spy thrillers. They are much better written and make more compelling fiction.
Yes, people are spying on you. But it isn't the US government unless you've engaged in politically questionable (to them) activities (like buddying-up with the Taliban); and even then, they don't act on their information very often.
Google is for sure spying on you, especially if you have a gmail account, post on youtube, order google books, or use Google as your search engine. Are you on Facebook? Any hacker can find out a lot about people on Facebook. And have you heard the latest on drones the size of humming birds that private enterprises would love to have circling over your head?
The irony with the US government controlling your life, of course, is that most of the earth's 7 billion people do not live in the US. And that China, North Korea, and probably Russia spy on US "secret" government information through computer hacking. So your data is now, as I write, being digested in some office in Beijing.
I think people who love conspiracy theories should read more spy thrillers. They are much better written and make more compelling fiction.
MaeMae
Banned
they only watch and listen if you're "buddied up with the Taliban"
yep ~ that's exactly what Randy Weaver and David Koresh and Brandon Mayfield did...something
"politically questionable to them" (u.s. gov't)
Thank God we got that one cleared up, 'cause for a moment there, I thought we were talking about U.S. constitutional rights to privacy and belief and religion and freedom of speech, stuff like that.
whew!
yep ~ that's exactly what Randy Weaver and David Koresh and Brandon Mayfield did...something
"politically questionable to them" (u.s. gov't)
Thank God we got that one cleared up, 'cause for a moment there, I thought we were talking about U.S. constitutional rights to privacy and belief and religion and freedom of speech, stuff like that.
whew!
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Ixaee
Well-known member
Zonark; I am okay with that because I know that I am not involved in anything outlandish. I have more interest in the philosophical, moral side of my own life than in fighting wars against the "Illuminati" for truth.... they can spy on me all they like.
Im not here to start wars or change the world. Im here so that I may learn from the world.. life is very subtle to me, not an external or physical thing... so perhaps you and I will never see eye-to-eye on this topic.
If anything, the government (and even religion) is a very beneficial thing to the masses of people in the world, as a whole. Surely you have seen chaos erupt when others feel nothing is holding them back? (Think Hurricane Katrina)
Even a simple fear that someone is watching over their shoulder will keep many people grounded..
What such a line is that?
I agree with WayBread on the fact that government agencies do not interfere into the lives of others unless they are involved in something quite questionable. Have you any idea how time-consuming and financially irresponsible it would be to "monitor" billions of people every second of the day -- just because? Even with such technology linked by the OP, it wouldnt be an easy thing to pull off.. and actually, it is also pointless.
What are you involved in? Its one thing to be involved in the occult fields, its another thing to be plotting to assassinate the president or invade the White House. Many conspirators do reach a mental breaking point and begin acting on an aggressive impulse to restore "truth"... so, I whole-heartedly agree with their attempts to monitor those types of minds more.
We should learn to work with the laws which have been setup in this world, and not against them to our own destruction. When you are doing the right thing (even when no one is watching), there is nothing to fret about..
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waybread
Well-known member
MaeMae, I didn't say this was the only time you might be under surveillance. However, it's not likely that you will be arrested and held if they have no case against you that would stand up in court.
But tell me that you do not participate with Google-based gmail, Facebook, Youtube, google books; and that you always read the fine print about privacy policy if you join a new blog or forum. That's where the real surveillance is taking place.
Ixaee, thanks for being a voice for common sense.
You know, in societies that really have had government surveillance of citizens, they didn't do it electronically. Rather in Nazi Germany neighbours were asked to report on neighbours. Family members were told to report each other for speaking out against the regime. This kept up in the former East Germany, with records being kept by police departments.
But nooooo......! Today everybody tweets about minute details of their lives, posts details and even embarrassing photos on Facebook, signs up on Internet sites without even glancing at the privacy policy (so-called) and reveals intimate details on astrology forums while giving their real names and birth data. Why should a nefarious government agency bug your toaster when most people give them so many details for free?
This really doesn't compute.
But tell me that you do not participate with Google-based gmail, Facebook, Youtube, google books; and that you always read the fine print about privacy policy if you join a new blog or forum. That's where the real surveillance is taking place.
Ixaee, thanks for being a voice for common sense.
You know, in societies that really have had government surveillance of citizens, they didn't do it electronically. Rather in Nazi Germany neighbours were asked to report on neighbours. Family members were told to report each other for speaking out against the regime. This kept up in the former East Germany, with records being kept by police departments.
But nooooo......! Today everybody tweets about minute details of their lives, posts details and even embarrassing photos on Facebook, signs up on Internet sites without even glancing at the privacy policy (so-called) and reveals intimate details on astrology forums while giving their real names and birth data. Why should a nefarious government agency bug your toaster when most people give them so many details for free?
This really doesn't compute.
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Zonark
Well-known member
Waybread, it's disappointing to see an academic making a topic such as this about assaults on personal character. I didn't insult your personal beliefs, least as far as I'm aware. Perhaps you misconstrued something I said. It is wonderful of you to have researched the Rothschild claims I made, good for you. I found the evidence I had presented to you compelling, you clearly found evidence to the contrary more appealing to your affectations. Not a problem, the evidence for both sides of that particular conspiracy is inconclusive as far as I know. I've heard compelling research but frankly I'm just not that great at remembering and indexing the evidence I do stumble upon. I need to work on that, definitely.
Of course there's a chance I am mistaken and I am not asserting otherwise, but I am unsure how my philosophical speculation on the broad ramifications of these new initiatives could be mistaken purely due to the nature of the argument I am presenting. I am not asserting that there is a conspiracy at work with dark intentions, though I do believe that. I am presenting my opinion on why the potential for abuse of these technologies is a very real and very likely possibility. So far myself and those agreeing with this speculation have been lambasted for claiming to have the 'truth' when we have not done so, we have only pointed to questionable facts about the reality of the situation which hint at potential malignancy.
The Pentagon does not strictly monitor people who buddy up with the Taliban. As MaeMae so deftly pointed out, there are numerous recent cases that display an apparent and disturbing trend of paranoid arrests and spying initiatives led by U.S. intelligence agencies. The lawyer being tracked for terrorism which MaeMae mentioned is an excellent example of this. I point to the new FBI memo that recently was released deigning protesters as 'potential terrorist threats' as more evidence of this intense paranoia amongst intelligence agencies.
http://refuseandresist.org/article-print.php?aid=1199
Your energetic attempts to trivialize these issues would be better spent on something you considered worthwhile, as it is evident to me these issues concern you little as your attempts to address them have been dismissive and avoidant of the actual arguments presented.
MaeMae
Banned
waybread ~
the story of brandon mayfield is quite compelling and blows holes in anyone's assumption that you have to do something "wrong" to find yourself, your life and family and everything you knew and believed, to be stomped on. He did nothing that elicited federal violations other than to incite their ownsuspicions. Last I heard, he was still seeking return of toothbrushes, combs and nail clippers that contain his dna. the government, as far as i know, hasn't complied.
they didn't have his dna the first time they lied and said they did have it in spain. even when spanish authorities said it was not a match to anthing at the train station bombing.
but now they do.
raped by his own country for his "threatening" religious beliefs.
and so on.
and yes, that IS what you said earlier about the only threat being buddied to Taliban, fyi.
the story of brandon mayfield is quite compelling and blows holes in anyone's assumption that you have to do something "wrong" to find yourself, your life and family and everything you knew and believed, to be stomped on. He did nothing that elicited federal violations other than to incite their ownsuspicions. Last I heard, he was still seeking return of toothbrushes, combs and nail clippers that contain his dna. the government, as far as i know, hasn't complied.
they didn't have his dna the first time they lied and said they did have it in spain. even when spanish authorities said it was not a match to anthing at the train station bombing.
but now they do.
raped by his own country for his "threatening" religious beliefs.
and so on.
and yes, that IS what you said earlier about the only threat being buddied to Taliban, fyi.
MaeMae
Banned
and as far as internet google, etc.
anyone who has brains knows that information shared via 3rd parties is no longer private.
smart people pick and choose what they share publicly.
It's the things we don't choose to share, things that we want to protect as private and protect accordingly, that are the things we need to consider in our own bathrooms.
"anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
What IS "anything?" and how are they getting their information and is it constitutional?
anyone who has brains knows that information shared via 3rd parties is no longer private.
smart people pick and choose what they share publicly.
It's the things we don't choose to share, things that we want to protect as private and protect accordingly, that are the things we need to consider in our own bathrooms.
"anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
What IS "anything?" and how are they getting their information and is it constitutional?
Zonark
Well-known member
Again, though I am tired and beginning to look quite sad continually referencing it with absolutely zero reaction from naysayers, I point to Nazi Germany. Virtually none of the people sent to concentration camps were doing anything wrong or outlandish. Most were leading normal, everyday lives. This did not save them. It is better to be somewhat paranoid, than to believe your lack of it will prevent such things from occurring to you.
Just briefly consider what kind of sentiment is being created surrounding the recent and quite rampant concerns about 'overpopulation'. What would be, in the eyes of those considering it a real and pressing issue, the quickest solution to that problem?
I am not arguing that government and religion are inherently bad things. I personally do not opt into support of either of these systems whenever it can be helped as I trust in my own moral authority sufficiently (though not implicitly) to feel comfortable not having to rely on an external source of it. My doing that is seen by many people to be inherently threatening because it makes my actions less predictable and normalized. I live like that because I value the freedom to do so, purely for its own sake. While many people would abuse such freedoms, I do not yet take great pleasure in not having to convince just anyone of my innocence, not until they can prove me guilty. It is a very fearless way of living. I have a working conscience, but it is not maintained or enforced by social limits. I can and do read 'the rules' and of course follow those I don't find objectionable. However my conscience often feels hampered by those limits, some of which support and idolize malevolent behavior (a quick example would be the bailouts given to corrupt companies by the U.S. government, an action I personally find reprehensible).
I don't trust those watching over my shoulder. I don't trust them to have that kind of intimate knowledge. It isn't like that with everyone, I have people I love who I'd trust with my deepest secrets, but I have no love for men and women I've never met who consider it their business to make sure I 'behave'. They are just as human and fault ridden as myself and should concern themselves with that first. I do not, will not and cannot trust them and believe it is my duty as a rational person to withhold that trust. This doesn't mean I am fearful, it is a fine line to tread.
This line is just a social construct, a set and enforced pattern of acceptable behaviors which is becoming increasingly more defined as government's reach and power grows. While most people consider this a necessary and good thing, I reject it on principal. Maybe it's my Scorpio MC conjuncting Pluto and opposed by Mars in Taurus?
While it is currently time consuming to monitor billions of people, you are neglecting the fact that those in government see this as a problem which needs a solution. It is not a deterrent. I am not arguing that this means those working toward a solution have malevolent intentions, or that it is even unnecessary, just that people like myself must continue to oppose such applications of government authority. It is my moral duty to do so, do you understand? I am of the same mind of the men who fought doggedly and incessantly for political liberties you enjoy today without nearly enough respect for the type of mind that is capable of seeing the necessity for such liberties.
While your fear of some paranoids having mental breakdowns is justified, it is disproportionate and irrational to not have an equal fear of the same kind of paranoia within governments. What makes governments an exception to this fear? What inoculates them against it? Their monitoring attempts are just as subject to fear and paranoia as those of lone paranoids and they are even more at risk because they can act on it with mass social approval and significant material advantages.
Were you born before Lincoln's noble movement to go against and abolish the widely accepted and legal precedent of slavery, you might've acquiesced to that law simply because you would've been afraid to resist, especially had you lived in the Confederate states. I am not that type of person and never have been. To me, laws hold no real power except that which we give them and should not be idolized as a solution to social cohesiveness ~if we could only all agree to obey them~. The word of law is first found in my heart and for that reason alone I am considered a potential nemesis of the state. I embrace that as my rightful lot in life and hope daily that I won't see my fears of fascism actualized. I am just one person though and could be so easily silenced for these views, so I hope to inspire others to take a similar stance.
Utopian society will never exist on Earth, so I remain vigilant.
waybread
Well-known member
MaeMae, the population of the US is currently around 312 million people. If we back out the little kids and the elderly who are sort-of out-of-it in nursing homes, shall we estimate that this leaves about a quarter of a billion people in whom the CIA might have any interest in observing for any reason? Of this quarter-billion, how many have actually been wrongly accused by the CIA of anti-American activities (like Brandon Mayfied) such that their lives got wrecked over it? 1% of this functional adult propulation would be around 2,500,000 individuals. This figure is close to the entire population of metro Chicago. .001% would be 2,500 individuals. This conspiracy doesn't wash on arithmetic grounds alone.
Does the government make mistakes, due to rogue employees with ill intent? Sure. Let's take that as a given. But realistically, your odds off having the government falsely accuse you of anything worse than tax evasion would be right up there with getting hit by a meteorite while standing on one foot whistling Dixie.
Zonark, you aren't going to shame me into silence by refering to my academic background. To the contrary! What would you know of the sorts of standards that prevail in the academy? I suspect very little. Spending over 30 years of my life in a climate of critical thinking, high standards of logic and evidence while surrounded by very bright people, are exactly what makes me highly sceptical of conspiracy theories.
I didn't insult your character, Zonark. I do take issue with some of your ideas.
It's not just a question of my belief vs. your belief. There is actual evidence out there. I went and looked up enough member banks of the Federal Reserve branches to convince any sensible person that the Rothschilds do not control the Federal Reserve. They do not control the world's money supply. If you believe otherwise, then you come up with the hard data. And it better be something more reliable than Joe Schmoe on YouTube.
The Nazi comparison is completely invidious. To compare the US government with Germany under National Socialism just doesn't fly on any grounds that I can think of. If you think it does, then you provide the hard evidence. There is, moreover, a huge contradiction with Barack Obama's presidency and people of colour in Congress and other other positions of trust vs everything the Nazis stood for.
Shame.
Does the government make mistakes, due to rogue employees with ill intent? Sure. Let's take that as a given. But realistically, your odds off having the government falsely accuse you of anything worse than tax evasion would be right up there with getting hit by a meteorite while standing on one foot whistling Dixie.
Zonark, you aren't going to shame me into silence by refering to my academic background. To the contrary! What would you know of the sorts of standards that prevail in the academy? I suspect very little. Spending over 30 years of my life in a climate of critical thinking, high standards of logic and evidence while surrounded by very bright people, are exactly what makes me highly sceptical of conspiracy theories.
I didn't insult your character, Zonark. I do take issue with some of your ideas.
It's not just a question of my belief vs. your belief. There is actual evidence out there. I went and looked up enough member banks of the Federal Reserve branches to convince any sensible person that the Rothschilds do not control the Federal Reserve. They do not control the world's money supply. If you believe otherwise, then you come up with the hard data. And it better be something more reliable than Joe Schmoe on YouTube.
The Nazi comparison is completely invidious. To compare the US government with Germany under National Socialism just doesn't fly on any grounds that I can think of. If you think it does, then you provide the hard evidence. There is, moreover, a huge contradiction with Barack Obama's presidency and people of colour in Congress and other other positions of trust vs everything the Nazis stood for.
Shame.
"Everything has its limit--iron ore cannot be educated into gold."
Mark Twain - What is Man?
Anyway, read, The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot byNaomi Wolf. I thought it had some very interesting points.
Now, we know these many of these matters mentioned are real (Patriot Act, illegal wiretapping, etc.) but whether you consider them important is simply your perspective but, it is not really the point.
The point is why anyone would care to create such matters contrary to the basis of our system and, ultimately it begs the question; who benefits from them?
From this stand-point each person positions themselves with an opinion and from here they form a theory as to the effects these changes may wrought or rue upon the lives of many or one's own life.
In the end, everything is arguable until unavoidable.
I love this thread even though only read two posts.
My takeaway from the discussion is that people LOVE to interact, fight and probe even, just to be part of a conversation. I took a primatology class in college and the professor told a story about a sanctuary he worked at once. There was a chimp who cut his hand and so they bandaged him up. The next day he came back, again and again...
He would just reopen the wound so as to get his little interaction fix.
I daresay you're all at the mercy of a Neptune transit.
PS If I worked for the CIA and I wanted to pull a fast one, I'd strategically release stories to generate a very loud and passionate debate about privacy laws to distract everyone from the magician's sleight of hand.
PPS What are your guys' thoughts on the Akashic Records? Should we take action somehow? I'm concerned people aren't aware anyone can access them at any time. ;-)
My takeaway from the discussion is that people LOVE to interact, fight and probe even, just to be part of a conversation. I took a primatology class in college and the professor told a story about a sanctuary he worked at once. There was a chimp who cut his hand and so they bandaged him up. The next day he came back, again and again...
He would just reopen the wound so as to get his little interaction fix.
I daresay you're all at the mercy of a Neptune transit.
PS If I worked for the CIA and I wanted to pull a fast one, I'd strategically release stories to generate a very loud and passionate debate about privacy laws to distract everyone from the magician's sleight of hand.
PPS What are your guys' thoughts on the Akashic Records? Should we take action somehow? I'm concerned people aren't aware anyone can access them at any time. ;-)
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Exactly MaeMae!
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to Justice everywhere" - Martin Luther King
