waybread
Well-known member
I did, thank you!
Human existence: the gender of God
- Thread starter CapAquaPis
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I did, thank you!
david starling
Well-known member
Waybread, are you aware of the Karaite sect of Judaism?
waybread
Well-known member
There is such a thing as feminist theology.
My (limited) understanding of God is what I experience as a divine Presence or divine consciousness. It has no gender or all genders. The Creator of the entire universe cannot possibly be limited by our puny human culture-bound understanding of male and female.
Hebrew is a gendered language. We get feminine concepts in the Hebrew Bible through words like ruach (feminine) and nefesh (feminine), with their cognates of "breath" and "spirit." The Hebrew word for soul, neshamah is also feminine.
Which would put a biological man in the interesting situation of having a feminine soul.
Have you not read in the prophets how God is husband to his people, and how his wife became a harlot when she followed other gods?
Men must submit to God as wives submit to their husbands in the patriarchy, and men must love their wives as God loves his people in his monarchy.
How do you claim that the name was to be pronounced only once in the Temple according to the Law when people greeted each other with it in Ruth 2:4?
The Rabbinic ban comes after the 2nd century.
The Torah is not the five books of Moses according to Jews.
waybread
Well-known member
How are you getting on sequestering during the COVID-19 pandemic, Petosiris? I hope our conversation is helping you to pass the time in a meaningful fashion. I hope you are able to comfort the sick in some way. (Matthew 25: 35-40.)
What is your source on the rabbinic ban post-2nd century CE?
Again, you want to ensure that you are not lumping all Jewish people together. As I've explained several times, there are significant differences in belief and practice. That Jews are identical and more biblical than modern is unfortunately a common Christian misconception. Not just Reform Jews don't see the Talmud as binding. Judaism has had a number of far-flung splinter groups living in places where the Talmud never reached them.
You are right in some respects. After I said that the prohibition on saying the personal name of God was in the Pentateuch, I thought, "I better check on this, because if it's not, he's going to call me on it."
I spent some time trying to look up the Jewish prohibition on saying the personal name of God. I found many examples attesting that this is the case, and that it was permitted only to the high priest in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. There's no disagreement there.
Some sources said simply that it was a longstanding tradition, but you'd think they could leave a teensy footnote or something.
This one seems definitive:
https://opensiddur.org/prayers/soli...ommandments-and-the-shma-in-the-nash-papyrus/
Apparently the source is the Mishnah, and the practice goes back to about 300 BCE; but with agreement that it ended with the destruction of the second Temple ca. 70 CE. From Rabbi Mark Sameth:
"The Tetragrammaton ...was permitted for everyday greetings until at least 586 B.C.E., when the First Temple was destroyed (Mishnah Berakhot 9:5). In time its pronunciation was permitted only to the priests ..., who would pronounce it in their public blessing of the people. With the death of the High Priest Shimon HaTzaddik circa 300 BCE (Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b) the Name was pronounced only by the High Priest in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (see Mishnah, Sotah 7:6; Mishnah, Tamid 7:2).... According to the Talmud, the pronunciation was passed on by the sages to their disciples only once (some say twice) every seven years .... Finally, upon the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 C.E., the Name was no longer pronounced at all."
Shimon Ha Tzaddik translates as Simon the Just, or Simon the Righteous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just If you click on Yoma 39b you will find the reference to the tradition.
The Mishnah, called the Oral Torah (to get back to your original question) is one of the oldest collections of biblical commentaries. Although it was first published in the 2nd century CE, as you suggest, it collated traditions that were often significantly older.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/mishnah/
It is full of examples of the Orthodox belief that one must "put a fence around the law" of more stringent requirements to prevent even accidental violation of the commandments. The original source seems to have been the commandment not to blaspheme with the name of God.
What is your source on the rabbinic ban post-2nd century CE?
Again, you want to ensure that you are not lumping all Jewish people together. As I've explained several times, there are significant differences in belief and practice. That Jews are identical and more biblical than modern is unfortunately a common Christian misconception. Not just Reform Jews don't see the Talmud as binding. Judaism has had a number of far-flung splinter groups living in places where the Talmud never reached them.
You are right in some respects. After I said that the prohibition on saying the personal name of God was in the Pentateuch, I thought, "I better check on this, because if it's not, he's going to call me on it."
I spent some time trying to look up the Jewish prohibition on saying the personal name of God. I found many examples attesting that this is the case, and that it was permitted only to the high priest in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. There's no disagreement there.
Some sources said simply that it was a longstanding tradition, but you'd think they could leave a teensy footnote or something.
This one seems definitive:
https://opensiddur.org/prayers/soli...ommandments-and-the-shma-in-the-nash-papyrus/
Apparently the source is the Mishnah, and the practice goes back to about 300 BCE; but with agreement that it ended with the destruction of the second Temple ca. 70 CE. From Rabbi Mark Sameth:
"The Tetragrammaton ...was permitted for everyday greetings until at least 586 B.C.E., when the First Temple was destroyed (Mishnah Berakhot 9:5). In time its pronunciation was permitted only to the priests ..., who would pronounce it in their public blessing of the people. With the death of the High Priest Shimon HaTzaddik circa 300 BCE (Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b) the Name was pronounced only by the High Priest in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (see Mishnah, Sotah 7:6; Mishnah, Tamid 7:2).... According to the Talmud, the pronunciation was passed on by the sages to their disciples only once (some say twice) every seven years .... Finally, upon the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 C.E., the Name was no longer pronounced at all."
Shimon Ha Tzaddik translates as Simon the Just, or Simon the Righteous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just If you click on Yoma 39b you will find the reference to the tradition.
The Mishnah, called the Oral Torah (to get back to your original question) is one of the oldest collections of biblical commentaries. Although it was first published in the 2nd century CE, as you suggest, it collated traditions that were often significantly older.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/mishnah/
It is full of examples of the Orthodox belief that one must "put a fence around the law" of more stringent requirements to prevent even accidental violation of the commandments. The original source seems to have been the commandment not to blaspheme with the name of God.
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waybread
Well-known member
Barely. They are one group who do not recognize the scriptural status of the Talmud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
waybread
Well-known member
I've read the biblical proof texts, if that's what you mean.
The material on wives submitting to their husbands is a cruel joke to battered wives, as but one example of wives put into horrible situations by their back-sliding "Christian" husbands.
Are you married Petosiris? If so, I'm curious how the submission part works in your marriage.
waybread
Well-known member
Petosiris, I'm curious as to why you put so much emphasis on proof texts dealing with points of doctrine while remaining silent on the main and most powerful messages of Christianity: to love your neighbour as yourself, to assist the most vulnerable members of society, and to live an ascetic life.
If you have two or more coats, have you given one away to the poor? Have you comforted the sick or people in prison? Reached out to the stranger in your midst?
I'd be much more interested in learning how your relationship with Jesus plays out in your daily life than in what seems to me to be your desire to recreate a medieval disputation with the Jews.
I hope my posts and links have been helpful.
If you have two or more coats, have you given one away to the poor? Have you comforted the sick or people in prison? Reached out to the stranger in your midst?
I'd be much more interested in learning how your relationship with Jesus plays out in your daily life than in what seems to me to be your desire to recreate a medieval disputation with the Jews.
I hope my posts and links have been helpful.
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
Nostradamus wrote 2 words in English on his prophecy books "one man". The concept of God? A Messiah is coming? And can the person actually be "a woman"? I say "a human" because Nostradamus also predicted the elevation of women as social equals throughout the world in the 20th century. The Aquarian age is bigender, physical male and mentally female, and what if Jesus Christ as a male expected to reincarnate as a woman in the late half of this century?
I talked to the psychic again on video chat lately who gave me the future of the ongoing covid19 pandemic to appear accurately expected by the CDC (up to 100k fatalities out of a million Americans infected), and he's starting to see the future of 2050 and 2055. Earlier, he couldn't get past 2045. He said a decade ago, he wasn't able to see past 2030-35. He said a global disaster worse than covid19 comes in the next decade from an asteroid said to flyby close (Apophis is well known in astronomy as a potential threat).
He said the third Antichrist resided in the resurrected third temple in Jerusalem, Israel. He's an American, a fundamentalist Christian and has a politico-religio-chauvinist mentality to trigger a 3rd hot world war in his first 2 decades of rule before 2060. And I suppose the world doesn't end, Nostradamus hinted either the years 3500 and 7000 AD (double) are the farthest limits of humanity's existence (age of scorpio in 8000 AD).
I talked to the psychic again on video chat lately who gave me the future of the ongoing covid19 pandemic to appear accurately expected by the CDC (up to 100k fatalities out of a million Americans infected), and he's starting to see the future of 2050 and 2055. Earlier, he couldn't get past 2045. He said a decade ago, he wasn't able to see past 2030-35. He said a global disaster worse than covid19 comes in the next decade from an asteroid said to flyby close (Apophis is well known in astronomy as a potential threat).
He said the third Antichrist resided in the resurrected third temple in Jerusalem, Israel. He's an American, a fundamentalist Christian and has a politico-religio-chauvinist mentality to trigger a 3rd hot world war in his first 2 decades of rule before 2060. And I suppose the world doesn't end, Nostradamus hinted either the years 3500 and 7000 AD (double) are the farthest limits of humanity's existence (age of scorpio in 8000 AD).
Have you ever prayed to God in the name of Jesus Christ for healing?
I knew you would think of something evil to say, so I also said in advance ''men must love their wives as God loves his people in his monarchy''. - Ephesians 5:25, Colossians 3:19, 1 Peter 3:7
No, I am not married. Paul wasn't married, but gave the same advice as Peter.
Do you think that a person spreading the good news of the kingdom isn't helping others? If I don't have riches to give, at least I can put my soul and mind in the help of others, even if it involves correction and rebuking, for I myself have been helped in this way.
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
I'm agnostic, although from a (Protestant) Christian background, and not quite a religious person who believes Jesus Christ has important teachings we as Americans, westerners and the world follows.
waybread
Well-known member
Is the truth evil?
Please answer my questions about the bigger, powerful messages of Christianity.
Rebuking and correcting people who don't ask for it is a big reason why more people don't turn to Christianity. Your rebukes do not come from a place of love.
waybread
Well-known member
There's a lot similar. Basically your rhetorical strategy is to criticize Judaism, if not me personally, through these little proof texts and loaded questions. You're not actually interesting in saving my soul, however.
Start with paragraph 3 on http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5226-disputations
I'd love to hear how, in this time of COVID-19 you comfort the sick, reach out to prisoners, help out widows and orphans, and welcome the stranger in your midst. Do you feed the hungry and clothe the "naked"?
You don't need much money for this. Jesus said to give away your goods, and also to materially help the most vulnerable members of society. Volunteering at a soup kitchen doesn't take much cash.
I don't think I need proof texts for you to know what I mean.
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david starling
Well-known member
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...."
waybread
Well-known member
To me, these are the really powerful messages of Christianity:
Christians are to look after the vulnerable members of society:
Matthew 25:35-40 New International Version (NIV)
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."
Matthew 5:38-40
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
Christians are to practice non-violence.
"Love your neighbour as yourself." (many verses)
Luke 6 has all kinds of good advice: love your enemies. In 6:37: “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you."
Much more powerful than rebuking and correcting people.
Christians are to look after the vulnerable members of society:
Matthew 25:35-40 New International Version (NIV)
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."
Matthew 5:38-40
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
Christians are to practice non-violence.
"Love your neighbour as yourself." (many verses)
Luke 6 has all kinds of good advice: love your enemies. In 6:37: “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you."
Much more powerful than rebuking and correcting people.
