Using antiscia and contra-antiscia in natal.

Antiscia and contrantiscia refer to planets shadow points, my understanding is that this has the effect of bringing together two signs, in the example im going to give this would be the case of Virgo and Libra, two signs that would not usually see each other/in aversion.

So mars @25 virgo and venus @ 4 libra puts them in aversion, but with the contratiscia this connects them, my question is would this then be taken as a conjunction between the two planets or not ?

If anybody needs me to post the chart in question, let me know.

Traditionally it is not a conjunction. It crosses sign lines, so no.

Oddity said:

Traditionally it is not a conjunction. It crosses sign lines, so no.

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Odds, you have way more time to go look it up again than I do. Contrantiscia IS a way to mitigate aversion, and there is a delineation for it. It's not commanding and obeying. Is it audentia? Paulus had it. Signs of equal rising, signs in what came to be semi-sextile agreeing in some way. I can look it up Wendesday, but that sounds a lot like Whimpy from the Popeye cartoons. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." lol. It's a thing though.

tsmall said:

Contrantiscia IS a way to mitigate aversion, and there is a delineation for it.

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So can we say that the contratiscia brings them together in a positive or negative way, i find contrantiscia more confusing with natal, with regards to antiscia then yes i would expect the two planets by antiscia to be brought together, by with contratiscia as its an antiscia by opposition, im uncertain as to what it is doing.

It mitigates aversion, but I'm not sure what it really does besides that in a natal chart. I can say that it doesn't create something akin to conjunction or opposition. Though mitigating aversion may be enough. My Firmicus went walkies a couple of years ago, so I can't look it up there.

The Greeks sometimes used it in synastry, that I understand. Best online I could find was at seven stars astrology, here: http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/...symmetry-commanding-obeying-hearing-antiscia/

I think the antiscia would be more inclined to bring about a conjunction from inconjunct planets..maybe Contras seem to complicate things even more, so i can see why they may not bring about a conjunction by this.

But then the question still stands what is it doing.

It's mitigating aversion. That isn't the same as a conjunction/opposition, and I wish we could stop thinking in those terms, because they don't bear out in charts.

Again, more useful in synastry, but in a natal chart example: say you have Mercury in Aries and Venus in Pisces. They're disjunct. But because they're connected antisicially, that blind spot isn't there - Mercury and Venus aren't pulling in different directions, unaware of what the other is doing. Say you're a writer or an artist. This can make a difference. You have access to both planets in your work, you can blend them.

Let's put Mercury in Aquarius then, and keep Venus in Pisces. Can you still do art? Yes. But it's going to lean heavily on one planet or the other, you won't be able to use both at the same time, because they just don't see each other.

Go by sign with writers, artists, musicians, whatever strikes your fancy, look at their charts and see if this applies to their work. In my experience, it does.

Other fields of life are valid, too, so take a look.

But again, the most important use is in synastry. You have Mercury in Pisces. He has it in Aries. There's still some sympathy there instead of the complete incomprehension that'd happen in signs where they don't see each other at all.

You've explained that perfectly Oddity, Thankyou.

I finally understand what your going on about, its been confusing for me as i've been using these in horary, and in horary they are used as conjunctions, so this is where i've become confused of how to interpret them in natal.

I've not found it to bear out in horary as a conjunction or opposition, either. The late moderns used it that way, but in my own practice I am far from convinced.

I personally find that antiscias in horary that are conjunct another planet gives a kind of overlay meaning to that planet.

In a recent inheritance thread i've replied to, querent/and L8 mars antisica is conjunct pluto, i don't use pluto all the time, but in this instance with where pluto is placed it seemed relevant to be used, and with L8 antiscia being conjunct it, i seen this as the inheritance that's been hidden/kept away from querent.

I have deleted the off topic comments and replies. For clarification, simply mentioning an outer planet doesn't violate the rules of this board. Please leave the moderating to the moderators and report posts rather than starting arguments that derail threads.

Tamara

I wouldn't say antiscia points are similar to conjunctions, but I've seen where the antiscia was operative in perfecting a matter in horary. A couple years back, I did a horary on successfully completing a practicum. The significator for the querent was Jupiter in Virgo, but nothing about the chart looked positive save for the Sun in Aries exactly on the antiscia point of Jupiter. Sun wasn't the tenth house ruler, but I took the exalted Sun as "honours" and judged that the querent would be successful. This judgement was borne out and the current passed the practicum comfortably.

In my personal natal, I have the antiscia points of Sagittarius and Capricorn operative. The planets involved are Sun, Mercury, Neptune and Uranus. There is sympathy in a way that is similar to what Odd described, but I wouldn't go as far to say that they are to be read as a conjunction.

conspiracy theorist said:

I wouldn't say antiscia points are similar to conjunctions, but I've seen where the antiscia was operative in perfecting a matter in horary. A couple years back, I did a horary on successfully completing a practicum. The significator for the querent was Jupiter in Virgo, but nothing about the chart looked positive save for the Sun in Aries exactly on the antiscia point of Jupiter. Sun wasn't the tenth house ruler, but I took the exalted Sun as "honours" and judged that the querent would be successful. This judgement was borne out and the current passed the practicum comfortably.

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I used the wrong word i think, as most of the charts ive looked at when antiscia has come into play, has happened like yours, i call it a overlay, so the antiscia will have a overlay influence on the planet. The only way id maybe use it as a conjunction would be if moon was not far from applying to it.

In my personal natal, I have the antiscia points of Sagittarius and Capricorn operative. The planets involved are Sun, Mercury, Neptune and Uranus. There is sympathy in a way that is similar to what Odd described, but I wouldn't go as far to say that they are to be read as a conjunction.

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Yes your right,not conjunction in natal, its my fault for saying conjunctions, i had my horary head on.

Chrysalis said:

Antiscia and contrantiscia refer to planets shadow points, my understanding is that this has the effect of bringing together two signs, in the example im going to give this would be the case of Virgo and Libra, two signs that would not usually see each other/in aversion.

So mars @25 virgo and venus @ 4 libra puts them in aversion, but with the contratiscia this connects them, my question is would this then be taken as a conjunction between the two planets or not ?

If anybody needs me to post the chart in question, let me know.

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I recommend reading this article by Deborah Houlding - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html

However, Manilius's description differs from that of Firmicus because he uses the centre of Cancer and Capricorn as his reference points, linking the sign of Gemini to Leo, Taurus to Virgo, Aries to Libra, Pisces to Scorpio, and Aquarius to Sagittarius.

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Firmicus, in moving the reference point for antiscion reflection from 15° of the tropical signs, to 0°, was merely correcting the error which had accumulated with the movement of the vernal point - a problem which the establishment of the tropical zodiac eradicated.

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''Error''.

Tropical antiscia involves signs in aversion or square. Any zodiac that does not begin with the first degree of the sign, such as in Manilius, Thrasyllus etc. the signs of equal daylight (at the time) are:
Gemini - Leo - Sextile
Taurus - Virgo - Trine
Pisces - Scorpio - Trine
Aquarius - Sagittarius - Sextile

Aries and Libra as well, but Hephaistio (Book 2:11 and 2:23) cites the opinion of Thrasyllus that those signs do not hear each other (despite widespread assumption that is the case). What other reason for this can there be, if not that those signs are in opposition (an inharmonious aspect). If this is Thrasyllus' reason (which I presume), there are no antiscia with a tropical zodiac.

Now, one might be thinking, are they mistaken to use those seeing and hearing configurations with Aries 8 and Aries 10 zodiacs as Deborah Houlding claims in her article.

I do not think so, as Firmicus and the medieval (which could have been influenced by Firmicus as his text was one of the few available at the time and he ascribes this doctrine to Saint Ptolemy) authors use degree approaches that do not appear to be the case with the Hellenistic astrologers who focused more on whole sign configurations and relationships. If the equinox is at the 15th, 10th, or 8th, or 3rd, it will allow for ancient antiscia, as 30 degrees later and before the equinox will coincide with equal daylight and that is enough to build this scheme. No scheme is perfect, but having planets in aversion - ''seeing each other'' is atrocious.

Hellenistic astrology developed with Aries 8 and Aries 10 zodiacs and I find it extremely unlikely the ancients did not notice that the months from the solstices do not coincide with the signs. They most likely understood that they did not use an Aries 15 zodiac or Aries 1, as Thrasyllus rejects such.

''Correcting the error''. Sure.

''sextile, upon the signs called "hearing" or "seeing'' - Ptolemy 3.11.

Now this is the error.

One does not have this problem with any sidereal zodiac (or ''tropical'' that is not 1 Aries, but rather Aries 8, 10, 15). Placing the equinoxes and solstices at the interstice is the dumbest idea to use with antiscia. Thus if one wants to use a tropical zodiac with different solstice degree, use the scheme by Manilius I showed above, or with the sidereal zodiac, this one:
Gemini and Sagittarius are tropical (and inverted in daylight symbolism for the respective hemisphere), while Virgo and Pisces are equinoctial. The following signs see and hear each other:
Cancer and Taurus - Sextile
Leo and Aries - Trine
Libra and Aquarius - Trine
Scorpio and Capricorn - Sextile
They actually fall nice with the exaltations, so they already have some relationships.

Use whole-sign antiscia, not degree approaches. Think about how every degree of a sign is nearer to the middle than to the two interstices. This is not mitigation of aversion, but reinforcement of hexagons and trigons, for they gain additional affinity.

Now, there is one concept to mitigate aversion known as ''like-engirding''. Libra and Taurus, Scorpio and Aries, Capricorn and Aquarius are like-engirding as they share the same domicile lord. I do not see this as an affinity, but rather an extension of what a domicile is - which is the domain of a planet, and those domains are of one planet (thus they gain relationship to a similar topic). Thus, it may be somewhat redundant. I believe signs in aversion only have indirect relationship in the classical aspect doctrine, so schemes such as Firmicus' have to be rejected in favor of the more ancient doctrine.

It is quite fascinating how sextiles and trines are of similar ratios compared to aversions, squares and oppositions (exception being the equinoctial signs). Again, as a further proof that the Hellenistic astrologers were not in error - Thrasyllus uses Aries 8 zodiac and says that Aries and Libra are equinoctial, although obviously late Pisces is more equinoctial than late Aries. It is just nearer to the middle than to the interstices. And sign boundaries are real - out-of-sign configurations are rejected for similar reasons. This is also the origin of fixed signs in middle = blunted sextiles in Firmicus, who did not understand that he contradicts himself like Ptolemy and Hephaistio with using an interstice tropical zodiac, but harmonious antiscia.