The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Crystalpages

Well-known member
Dada,

Ah! That sounds good, about theorizing and even changing concepts if need be.:smile:, and that we shouldn't remain stuck in our self created prison like the frog.:sideways:

Yes. Creation and Destruction is momentary (sometimes 'true' may sound 'dirty'), like Brahma & Maheswar are; while sustenance is more visual and permeating during the lifetime, and we have Vishnu Avatar Krishna writing Gita regarding the way & why we should sustain the lifetime.

I am not aware of the reasoning given by the Sanjay Rath School on the guna equation with karaks, and anyways, I do leave the option open that gunas may or may not be married to karaks in reality.

Charakarakas are movable karaks, which show how the less fixed like naisargika & shtira karaks prosper/sustain/'move from birth to death' during the natives lifetime (rather the final equation/relation between the karak and the self).
Thus I find this to be the logical clarity. Of course, any logic may be incorrect as a better logic can exist.

Now, about/between the sthira & Naisargik karaks, I am not sure.....:unsure:

Rishi

Rishi,

I for one am not allergic to theorizing etc, because without that as the basis, no practical and no practice ;-)

I am not sufficiently aware of the reasoning accepted in Sanjay's school or any other schools for that matter, other than a bit of what is in public domain.

Without waxing profoundly philosophical, my interpretation of the three categories is much simpler and does not involve invoking Gods who have more important things to deal with as opposed to jyotish, namely, how to preserve humanity from self-destruction and destroying one another! :-(

The categories so named (Naisargika, Sthira, Chara) are perhaps just related to their utilization in horoscopy. Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific; Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination). With poetical-philosophical license, one may think of those somewhat akin to Fixed:Movable:Mutable categories. Extrapolating that to rashis, gunas, tattwas would be somewhat of a 'stretch', no matter how 'be-FIT-ting' it may sound or made to sound and some may even see logic in such extrapolations!

Not against stretching of thinking or imagination, of course but each leap thereof must not be taken to indicate some kind of a paradigm-shift! With or without having to drag in Gods or religious analogies. It is like erecting an edifice of belief on the foundation which is another belief on another and so forth. Such to me sounds anything but logic-based and obfuscates the very basis of logic.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
Rishi,

I for one am not allergic to theorizing etc, because without that as the basis, no practical and no practice ;-)

I am not sufficiently aware of the reasoning accepted in Sanjay's school or any other schools for that matter, other than a bit of what is in public domain.

Without waxing profoundly philosophical, my interpretation of the three categories is much simpler and does not involve invoking Gods who have more important things to deal with as opposed to jyotish, namely, how to preserve humanity from self-destruction and destroying one another! :-(

The categories so named (Naisargika, Sthira, Chara) are perhaps just related to their utilization in horoscopy. Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific; Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination). With poetical-philosophical license, one may think of those somewhat akin to Fixed:Movable:Mutable categories. Extrapolating that to rashis, gunas, tattwas would be somewhat of a 'stretch', no matter how 'be-FIT-ting' it may sound or made to sound and some may even see logic in such extrapolations!

Not against stretching of thinking or imagination, of course but each leap thereof must not be taken to indicate some kind of a paradigm-shift! With or without having to drag in Gods or religious analogies. It is like erecting an edifice of belief on the foundation which is another belief on another and so forth. Such to me sounds anything but logic-based and obfuscates the very basis of logic.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan



Dada,

I too am not aware of the reasoning the Sanjay Rath school has about this as most of my knowledge is also from hthe public domain.

Oh! I am not invoking the Gods, and as you are aware, I do not attach Gods with astrology. But since you mentioned birth death & sustenance, I attached Brahma Maheswar and Vishnu as they symbolise birth death & creation... just my way of explaining/elaborating more visually with many followers of Vedic.

Again, regarding astrology and Gunas, am not sure of the logic behind it, and maybe others attached to the Sanjay Rath tradition may offer a sound logic.....Marian, I suppose.

Charakaraks are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific as also I have noticed;

while Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global;
and Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination).

Rishi
 

Crystalpages

Well-known member
Dada,

I too am not aware of the reasoning the Sanjay Rath school has about this as most of my knowledge is also from hthe public domain.

Oh! I am not invoking the Gods, and as you are aware, I do not attach Gods with astrology. But since you mentioned birth death & sustenance, I attached Brahma Maheswar and Vishnu as they symbolise birth death & creation... just my way of explaining/elaborating more visually with many followers of Vedic.

Again, regarding astrology and Gunas, am not sure of the logic behind it, and maybe others attached to the Sanjay Rath tradition may offer a sound logic.....Marian, I suppose.

Charakaraks are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific as also I have noticed;

while Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global;
and Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination).

Rishi

Interesting, Rishi!
Birth, Death, sustenance are rather religion-neutral terms and are experienced by people of ALL religions and rather clear and clearly-understood English terms. But as soon as you or I or anyone feel it necessary to specifically mention the names of Gods, it stops being religion-neutral and specifically religious symbolism! Which is unnecessary for astrological conversation-discussion! ;-)

That aside, the term *mixed* implies closeness to dwisvabhava or mutable, whereas *fixed* implies polarity, the opposite pole being chara or *movable*.

Yet you say "naisargika ... sthira or mixed..."! Why, and what did you mean by calling fixed as mixed? :) Naisargika is fixed, sthira is partly variable at best perhaps the determination might be more preference than innate! On the other hand, regarding, the tri-partite division of zodiac (fixed, mutable, movable) is less a matter of preference. Perhaps, the chara, sthira and dwisvabhava attributes have little to do with the three categories of Karakas? I certainly do not recall the fundamental texts connecting the two categorisations...! Do you?

Additionally, one may choose to confuse the issue and discussion, by mixing up zodiacs but then it becomes the xyz-breakfast! <LOL>

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
 
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RishiRahul

Well-known member
Interesting, Rishi!
Birth, Death, sustenance are rather religion-neutral terms and are experienced by people of ALL religions and rather clear and clearly-understood English terms. But as soon as you or I or anyone feel it necessary to specifically mention the names of Gods, it stops being religion-neutral and specifically religious symbolism! Which is unnecessary for astrological conversation-discussion! ;-)
Rishi=Yes, birth,death, sustenance are religion-neutral terms all right, and I need not have attached the symbolizations at all.
But again, Jyotish is a limb of the Vedas, and I thought that symbiolisations (sometimes mythology even) are sometimes helpful in understanding the sense better/more visually.
Anyways, It can be left out if it poses a problem to the main essence of the thread.

That aside, the term *mixed* implies closeness to dwisvabhava or mutable, whereas *fixed* implies polarity, the opposite pole being chara or *movable*.

Yet you say "naisargika ... sthira or mixed..."! Why, and what did you mean by calling fixed as mixed? :) Naisargika is fixed, sthira is partly variable at best perhaps the determination might be more preference than innate! On the other hand, regarding, the tri-partite division of zodiac (fixed, mutable, movable) is less a matter of preference. Perhaps, the chara, sthira and dwisvabhava attributes have little to do with the three categories of Karakas? I certainly do not recall the fundamental texts connecting the two categorisations...! Do you?
Rishi= Are you are talking of the gist I mentioned above (post on 1 March 2015)?
If so, the thought wasn't mine :happy: at all, but a gist of the links given in the same thread previous to the post; with the thought that it may help the thread-- take it or leave it.

Additionally, one may choose to confuse the issue and discussion, by mixing up zodiacs but then it becomes the xyz-breakfast! <LOL>

Regards,

Rohiniranjan



I hope I am not adding to the confusion. Please neglect the gist mentioned by me, if you feel so:smile:

Rishi
 
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Crystalpages

Well-known member
I hope I am not adding to the confusion. Please neglect the gist mentioned by me, if you feel so:smile:

Rishi

Jyotish, at least in my experience, while originating as a part and parcel of Vedas which are (again to my understanding!) more than just religious texts are transcendental to any specific religion or religious thinking. They are spiritual texts and collections of spiritual thoughts as well as a moral codex. I have seen many atheists with rather high moral values and sense of moralities, and also religious people who were not so moral! ;-)

Jyotish does apply to human beings of rather wide range of religious and moral beliefs (or lack thereof!) and so is universal and must not be fettered to or limited by religious labelling!

But, please do not change your ways and preferences just because I pointed something out in the terminology that you used! Or felt it necessary to do so! ;-)

Are we getting influenced by the eclipse {tongue-in-cheek jest!}? Or are we simply being consistent? I know, I am being the latter!!

Rohiniranjan
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
Jyotish, at least in my experience, while originating as a part and parcel of Vedas which are (again to my understanding!) more than just religious texts are transcendental to any specific religion or religious thinking. They are spiritual texts and collections of spiritual thoughts as well as a moral codex. I have seen many atheists with rather high moral values and sense of moralities, and also religious people who were not so moral! ;-)

Jyotish does apply to human beings of rather wide range of religious and moral beliefs (or lack thereof!) and so is universal and must not be fettered to or limited by religious labelling!

But, please do not change your ways and preferences just because I pointed something out in the terminology that you used! Or felt it necessary to do so! ;-)

Are we getting influenced by the eclipse {tongue-in-cheek jest!}? Or are we simply being consistent? I know, I am being the latter!!

Rohiniranjan


I wonder if you found me giving 'importance' to religious labeling? in this thread or even so many threads/posts that you have seen before?

As agreed in the earlier post, that religious labeling is not necessary.

I wonder if the karaks can be decoded better...



Rishi
 
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Crystalpages

Well-known member
...
I wonder if the karaks can be decoded better...

Rishi

The association of swabhava (disposition, attribute etc) of rashis with three fundamental karakas (planets) does not seem to be fully satisfactory even as a theoretical beginning, but I am still hopeful! ;-)

I am waiting patiently!!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
 
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RishiRahul

Well-known member
The association of swabhava (disposition, attribute etc) of rashis with three fundamental karakas (planets) does not seem to be fully satisfactory even as a theoretical beginning, but I am still hopeful! ;-)

I am waiting patiently!!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan


Maybe it is in the 4th. karak you were mentioning earlier in this thread.
What is it?

Rishi
 

Crystalpages

Well-known member
Maybe it is in the 4th. karak you were mentioning earlier in this thread.
What is it?

Rishi

The 4th! The 4th? Which 4th are you referring to, now??
Be forthcoming, brother! ;-)

Not being mentally-resistant, by the way, just bemused and wondering...! <LOL>

Love, Light, Levity?

Rohiniranjan
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
The 4th! The 4th? Which 4th are you referring to, now??
Be forthcoming, brother! ;-)

Not being mentally-resistant, by the way, just bemused and wondering...! <LOL>

Love, Light, Levity?

Rohiniranjan


Hey Dada,

Sorry to confuse. You did not mention any 4th. karak. Maybe my mind analysed that you did so:confused: .

The only confusion is between the differences between the naisargika karaks & sthirakaraks.

As far their applicability goes, it seems to be same.
Only difference being when we check on health/longevity factors, when the sthikaraks should be followed; otherwise Naisargika Karaks.

As you earlier mentioned in this thread..."Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable".
We should not see naisargika karaks, but sthirakaraks while seeing health/longevity factors.

Of course, this is where my logic drives me to believe; and I have not tested this area to complete satisfaction.

I wonder if there is more to it...?

Rishi
 
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Crystalpages

Well-known member
My answers sandwiched in your post; just the style that you generally prefer and possibly cherish! <HAHA!>

Hey Dada,

Sorry to confuse. You did not mention any 4th. karak. Maybe my mind analysed that you did so:confused: .
{Rohiniranjan: I did mention that there are more than these three categories of karaka, but let us not bring them in and avoid khichdi! You read too hurriedly and perhaps that led to your getting confused?}

The only confusion is between the differences between the naisargika karaks & sthirakaraks.

As far their applicability goes, it seems to be same.
Only difference being when we check on health/longevity factors, when the sthikaraks should be followed; otherwise Naisargika Karaks.


As you earlier mentioned in this thread..."Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable".
We should not see naisargika karaks, but sthirakaraks while seeing health/longevity factors.
{Rohiniranjan: Why so? Based on this Jyotish Vachaspaty book that Rajarshi ji was earlier writing about...?? Have you read it???}
Of course, this is where my logic drives me to believe; and I have not tested this area to complete satisfaction.
{Rohiniranjan: Ah, but you have tested it, some...! How about leaving out karakas and only focusing on relevant lords and houses? Did those not give enough hints and indications about health/longevity? If yes, then why does one need to mess around with Karakattvas? In fact some insist that they don't...! Which is part of the probe}

I wonder if there is more to it...?
{Rohiniranjan: Seems so! Another fine example of MMMB <LOL>}

Rishi
 
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RishiRahul

Well-known member
My answers sandwiched in your post; just the style that you generally prefer and possibly cherish! <HAHA!>
Rishi= Oops. The multiquote feature doesnt work; or maybe I cant handle.
For more serious serious things and better communication; also I prefer this during such times as this-- better communication too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RishiRahul
Hey Dada,

Sorry to confuse. You did not mention any 4th. karak. Maybe my mind analysed that you did so:confused: .
{Rohiniranjan: I did mention that there are more than these three categories of karaka, but let us not bring them in and avoid khichdi! You read too hurriedly and perhaps that led to your getting confused?}
Rishi=The first time I read was not hurried; the second time was hurried.
Bhavakaraks, I presume!


The only confusion is between the differences between the naisargika karaks & sthirakaraks.

As far their applicability goes, it seems to be same.
Only difference being when we check on health/longevity factors, when the sthikaraks should be followed; otherwise Naisargika Karaks.


As you earlier mentioned in this thread..."Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable".
We should not see naisargika karaks, but sthirakaraks while seeing health/longevity factors.
{Rohiniranjan: Why so? Based on this Jyotish Vachaspaty book that Rajarshi ji was earlier writing about...?? Have you read it???}
Rishi=No, I havent read that book.I read it elsewhere; maybe experimented somewhat too, due to which the impression is marked in my mind.
Of course, this is where my logic drives me to believe; and I have not tested this area to complete satisfaction.
{Rohiniranjan: Ah, but you have tested it, some...! How about leaving out karakas and only focusing on relevant lords and houses? Did those not give enough hints and indications about health/longevity? If yes, then why does one need to mess around with Karakattvas? In fact some insist that they don't...! Which is part of the probe}
Rishi=One can leave the karaks out while predicting on longevity; enough hints can be observed otherwise too.
Even then Sthirakaraks exist for a reason; and so vividly as the name goes.
There must be some factor, probably about health/longevity or fecundity that we are unable to catch, I am sure.
It also can be a distinction between day and night births.
More researh is needed in the area of shtirakaraks.


I wonder if there is more to it...?
{Rohiniranjan: Seems so! Another fine example of MMMB <LOL>}
Rishi= Monday Monday Moti Bhinna.


Rishi

Rishi
 
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Crystalpages

Well-known member
Rishi= Oops. The multiquote feature doesnt work; or maybe I cant handle.
For more serious serious things and better communication; also I prefer this during such times as this-- better communication too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RishiRahul
Hey Dada,

Sorry to confuse. You did not mention any 4th. karak. Maybe my mind analysed that you did so:confused: .
{Rohiniranjan: I did mention that there are more than these three categories of karaka, but let us not bring them in and avoid khichdi! You read too hurriedly and perhaps that led to your getting confused?}
Rishi=The first time I read was not hurried; the second time was hurried.
Bhavakaraks, I presume!


The only confusion is between the differences between the naisargika karaks & sthirakaraks.

As far their applicability goes, it seems to be same.
Only difference being when we check on health/longevity factors, when the sthikaraks should be followed; otherwise Naisargika Karaks.


As you earlier mentioned in this thread..."Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable".
We should not see naisargika karaks, but sthirakaraks while seeing health/longevity factors.
{Rohiniranjan: Why so? Based on this Jyotish Vachaspaty book that Rajarshi ji was earlier writing about...?? Have you read it???}
Rishi=No, I havent read that book.I read it elsewhere; maybe experimented somewhat too, due to which the impression is marked in my mind.
Of course, this is where my logic drives me to believe; and I have not tested this area to complete satisfaction.
{Rohiniranjan: Ah, but you have tested it, some...! How about leaving out karakas and only focusing on relevant lords and houses? Did those not give enough hints and indications about health/longevity? If yes, then why does one need to mess around with Karakattvas? In fact some insist that they don't...! Which is part of the probe}
Rishi=One can leave the karaks out while predicting on longevity; enough hints can be observed otherwise too.
Even then Sthirakaraks exist for a reason; and so vividly as the name goes.
There must be some factor, probably about health/longevity or fecundity that we are unable to catch, I am sure.
It also can be a distinction between day and night births.
More researh is needed in the area of shtirakaraks.


I wonder if there is more to it...?
{Rohiniranjan: Seems so! Another fine example of MMMB <LOL>}
Rishi= Monday Monday Moti Bhinna.


Rishi

Rishi

And, so the march continues! It has only just begun!!
Ever wonder why when someone asks, "How are you doing?", oftentimes the response is, "So-so!".
What does that term mean?
It is related to astrology! :rightful:
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
And, so the march continues! It has only just begun!!
Ever wonder why when someone asks, "How are you doing?", oftentimes the response is, "So-so!".
What does that term mean?
It is related to astrology! :rightful:


It mostly means.. a discreet answer which is not frank.

But frankly, I am still puzzled about the differences in application between naisargik karaks and shtirakaraks; though I have unexpained reasons to believe that sthirakaraks should be used for health/longevity reasons; other wise naisargirkaraks.

Though I havent experimented much on this.

So my view on this may change........in future.

Rishi
 
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Crystalpages

Well-known member
It mostly means.. a discreet answer which is not frank.

But frankly, I am still puzzled about the differences in application between naisargik karaks and shtirakaraks; though I have unexpained reasons to believe that sthirakaraks should be used for health/longevity reasons; other wise naisargirkaraks.

Though I havent experimented much on this.

So my view on this may change........in future.

Rishi

No no, it is nothing that profound. It generally means simply, status quo or 'Same old, same old (soso)'! ;-)

In BPHS, the sthira karakas are enumerated after chara, but other than that the Magnum opus moves quickly to describe bhavas from karakas and ties those to relatives (also enumerated in sthirakaraka slokas) and their 'effects experienced' giving those more space than sthira karakas and then dives deep into yogakarakas. The two sets (sthira and bhavas from karakas) could be related, although BPHS does say "all the above karakas". Whether this *all* was pointing to all types of karakas or all planets mentioned in the houses from karaka or sthira karakas (leading slokas) is left to interpretation. Are slokas missing? We do not know!

When I was experimenting with ayanamshas I did try out a few of those with my test-bench, but nothing satisfactory came out reliably in relation to ill health of specific relatives or death etc. I used a few dasas too. But, I am not saying that to discourage you or your personal quest. So, do try it since it seems important to you. If the wall of Berlin could come down, why would this Wall not break down at some point in time!

Ranjan (I will use the short form of my name. One friend used to address me as RJ; even shorter!)
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
No no, it is nothing that profound. It generally means simply, status quo or 'Same old, same old (soso)'! ;-)

In BPHS, the sthira karakas are enumerated after chara, but other than that the Magnum opus moves quickly to describe bhavas from karakas and ties those to relatives (also enumerated in sthirakaraka slokas) and their 'effects experienced' giving those more space than sthira karakas and then dives deep into yogakarakas. The two sets (sthira and bhavas from karakas) could be related, although BPHS does say "all the above karakas". Whether this *all* was pointing to all types of karakas or all planets mentioned in the houses from karaka or sthira karakas (leading slokas) is left to interpretation. Are slokas missing? We do not know!

When I was experimenting with ayanamshas I did try out a few of those with my test-bench, but nothing satisfactory came out reliably in relation to ill health of specific relatives or death etc. I used a few dasas too. But, I am not saying that to discourage you or your personal quest. So, do try it since it seems important to you. If the wall of Berlin could come down, why would this Wall not break down at some point in time!

Ranjan (I will use the short form of my name. One friend used to address me as RJ; even shorter!)


Ah!its not important; it is one of the free time important.
There are so many things to research with....of course to full satisfaction.

While predicting I use tools and sub tools which are time tested by me.
The other part is the research part
....... Like the bipolar disease...:biggrin:

Thanks for the lead.

Rishi

Rishi
 

Crystalpages

Well-known member
Ah!its not important; it is one of the free time important.
There are so many things to research with....of course to full satisfaction.

While predicting I use tools and sub tools which are time tested by me.
The other part is the research part
....... Like the bipolar disease...:biggrin:

Thanks for the lead.

Rishi

Rishi

Wow! That is interesting!! Hey Rishi, when are you going to teach me the secret of immortality? Please, pretty-please...! ;-)
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
Ah!its not important; it is one of the free time important.
There are so many things to research with....of course to full satisfaction.

While predicting I use tools and sub tools which are time tested by me.
The other part is the research part
....... Like the bipolar disease...:biggrin:

Thanks for the lead.

Rishi
Wow! That is interesting!! Hey Rishi, when are you going to teach me the secret of immortality? Please, pretty-please...! ;-)

If I knew to achieve immortality, there would have been more time to test more things; but the mind would have been burdened with too many memories of varying emotions, and humans would have gone towards negative states, even evil.

In any case, by the 2 -3 decades we may be immortal, but emotional memory brain chips would be available by then, with compartments to move portions of conscious minds to other sub sections like D or E drives.

Thus the secret of immortality is simple------ Somehow live for 2 -3 decades more:biggrin:

Rishi
 

Crystalpages

Well-known member
If I knew to achieve immortality, there would have been more time to test more things; but the mind would have been burdened with too many memories of varying emotions, and humans would have gone towards negative states, even evil.

In any case, by the 2 -3 decades we may be immortal, but emotional memory brain chips would be available by then, with compartments to move portions of conscious minds to other sub sections like D or E drives.

Thus the secret of immortality is simple------ Somehow live for 2 -3 decades more:biggrin:

Rishi

That was a friendly/brotherly poke at your statement, "time tested by me"! Immortality is a mythical pipe dream for all mortals. Those immortal only live in myths and mythologies...! ;-)

I would rather have the potato-chips of NOW, rather than dream about what might happen in the branch of cyber-nooetics two or three decades downstream (or upstream?) from now. But as the poet said:

Dil ke behlaanay ko Ghalib, ye khayaal achhaa hai...!

Happy Sunday! We lost one hour today, but gained a jump ahead in Time!

Rohiniranjan
 
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