Origins of psychological astrology?

AstroNous

Active member
I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology. How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.

The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
There's a long history in the astrological literature about the quality of the soul, and this is going to be what you are looking for. We find it first (maybe) in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he spends a bit talking about how to tell about someone's soul using the position of Mercury and the Moon. I'm sure there is probably something about this in Valens's Anthology as well, I am just less familiar with this work.

As we move into the medieval period, the focus becomes a bit less on Mercury and the Moon and the more common indicator of an individual's soul or personality/psychology is the temperament theory where every individual is some mix of choler/melancholer/phlegm/sanguine and this unique mixture has implications for our physical health and psychological characteristics.

The biggest difference between classical and modern psychological astrology is that modern psychological astrology sees the entire birth charts as representative of the native's psyche, so that everything in a chart has some implications on someone's character. Classically this wasn't the case, and there were only a few select parts of the chart that had any direct correlation with the person that it belonged to.
 

waybread

Well-known member
In English language astrology, I'd look to the writings of Dane Rudhyar, who was active throughout the mid-20th century. This wasn't psychology as a behavioural scientist would understand it today, but more akin to a mix of philosophy and the human potential movement. Psychological astrology got another boost ca. 1970 from Liz Greene and her associates, and Stephen Arroyo. However, even Greene did not have strong educational credentials in psychology. The psychology in her books tends to derive largely from the work of Carl Jung; and some even harkens back to Freud. So it is hard to say how much of psychological astrology an actual psychologist would recognize today. I note that a practising clinical psychologist usually needs at least a Master's degree in psychology or an allied field, and then s/he has to pass a board certification exam. I doubt that many astrologers have done this.

However, many of us are informed by psychology in the popular press.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology. How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.

The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!
'....The recent revival of the older, pre-20th century forms of astrology in the past few decades
has led to some major differences in how “modern” and “traditional” astrologers practice and conceptualize the subject,
and the purpose was to explore some of the specific points of divergence between the approaches.
The end result was a sweeping two-hour debate that covered several important topics
related to the conceptualization, practice, and philosophy of astrology in the 21st century.....'
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2014/06/16/modern-vs-traditional-astrology-debate/

Also discusses the role of consciousness in astrological interpretation :smile:
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
You're going to have to define what you mean by psychological astrology....

In my opinion, most people who think they are doing psychological astrology are not, because to do psychological astrology, you must have training in both counseling or clinical psychology and training in astrology. Its very rare to have both of those in one person.
 

waybread

Well-known member
It is also worth mentioning that traditional astrology dealt with the "soul" in a way that we today would define as personality; and the 4 elements translated into "temperaments" that were also close to personality types. But psychology? This is a modern discipline and university subject which has gone through big changes over the course of its history, but today seems closer to "behavioural science" or even neuroscience. So it isn't anything we really find astrologers engaging in at a professional level, so far as I know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

Alan Leo had no education in psychology (and little formal education,) but like the other theosophists, he had a "modern" interest in how the mind worked-- as they understood it at the turn of the 20th century. Theirs was a blend of books on personality, philosophy, and esotericism. It may be a misnomer to call much of what we do "psychology."
 

waybread

Well-known member
Thanks, Zarathu-- yes, there are a few of you legitimate psychologists with degrees, in the astrological fold-- perhaps .66% is about the right percentage.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
I was kind of hoping that the OP would return and share more about what they were asking about psychological astrology.....
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
THE CENTRE FOR PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGY :smile:

The CPA provides a unique workshop, seminar and professional training programme,
designed to foster the cross-fertilisation of the fields of astrology
and depth, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology
http://www.cpalondon.com/



Centre for Psychological Astrology was founded by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas in 1983.
In 2011 the CPA changed
to a new Plato’s Academy style of learning. http://www.cpalondon.com/new cpa.html Here you can learn psychological astrology,
attend public seminars, study online,
receive mailings and browse the CPA Press astrology books. This is learning for the sheer love and joy of learning
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You are an individual born on a specific day,time, month, year and in a specific place.
That's what sets you apart and gives you a particular life journey
http://www.psychologicalastrology.com


What is Psychological Astrology? :smile:

opinions include the following:

QUOTE

'.... psychological astrology looks at the birth chart as a map of who we are,
our life journey, our complexes
and can help us get a clearer picture of who we really are.
It can help us work out our problems and clarify our goals.
A psychological astrologer, such as John Green,
will help you understand where you are going in life,
why problems recur in your life
and
teach you how to develop yourself better.
This can lead to helping you have a greater understanding of yourself,
your relationships with others and the direction of your life.....'


'...Psychological astrology developed from an understanding of the works of Freud and Jung.
Jung was fascinated with astrology,
and cast horoscopes himself
to "find a clue to the core of psychological truth.
"
Probably the best known exponent of psychological astrology
is Dr Liz Greene, a Jungian analyst,
she set up the Centre for Psychological Astrology in London 1983
with the late Howard Sasportas, a psychosynthesis psychotherapist
to foster the cross-fertilization of astrology
with the fields of depth, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology....'
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
The problem with Liz Greene's psychological astrology is that we aren't sure she really has a degree in psychology. Last I heard she still wasn't saying where it was from. Make of that what you may.
 

waybread

Well-known member
According to Wikipedia, Noel Tyl graduated from Harvard U. in 1958, with a B. A. degree in Social Relations, which was a mix of psych, soc, and anthro. His pre-astrology career was as an opera singer. There's not a lot of actual psychology here-- just some undergraduate courses. This isn't to say that Tyl wouldn't read widely in psychology, but it's a little different than a rigorous degree program in psychology.

Becoming a clinical (practicing) psychologist today in most western countries requires at minimum a Master's degree, a lot of pre-certification clinical hours under senior supervision, plus passing a licensing exam. Does anyone know of any "modern psychological astrologers" who have done this?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Way to go, Zarathu! I take my virtual hat off to you. But how many astrologers who publish "psychological astrology" books or articles have your credentials?
 

spock

Well-known member
Zarathu wrote:
In my opinion, most people who think they are doing psychological astrology are not, because to do psychological astrology, you must have training in both counseling or clinical psychology and training in astrology.

and waybread added:
Psychology "is a modern discipline and university subject which has gone through big changes over the course of its history, but today seems closer to "behavioural science" or even neuroscience. So it isn't anything we really find astrologers engaging in at a professional level, so far as I know. . . . It may be a misnomer to call much of what we do "psychology."
If astrology were a developed research discipline the relevant psychological categories and functions would be an integral part of the astrological curriculum, and a degree in it would be an intro into that research community, a route to effectively contribute to it, and an indication that the holder exceeds a minimum level of knowledge and competence. But it isn't, and present-day astrologers, much less our distant predecessors, can't even say unequivocally what those categories and functions are. At astrology's current level of development what makes an astrologer a psychological astrologer isn't a degree but an orientation, one in which what is sought is psychological information rather than information about events and circumstances. I doubt that the information provided by astrologers, psychological or otherwise, is accurate, but a degree in one or more psychological disciplines, which individually might or might not be relevant to astrology, will not in itself enable such astrologers to provide better information. The problem with looking for astrological correlates of modern psychological categories and functions is that we don't know, absent appropriate and sufficiently rigorous astrological research, what kinds of information astrology actually provides. In my opinion it provides information about psychodynamic states, and about events only to the extent that they're probable outcomes of such states. The ideas of depth psychologists Freud, Jung, Abraham Maslow and Erik Erikson, of lifespan development theorists Daniel Levinson and Gail Sheehy, and of cognitive development theorists Jean Piaget and L.S. Vygotsky are strikingly relevant to astrology. The contents of their theories, appropriately recast and contexted, are the stuff of astrological effects. These effects are time based, and their timing corresponds to planetary periods. For instance Freud's ego, Jung's persona, Levinson's and Sheehy's Age 30 Transition, Maslow's esteem needs, Erikson's Industry vs. Inferiority stage, Piaget's Concrete Operational stage, Vygotsky's Crisis at Age 7 and Grant Lewi's Saturn Return all refer to the same phenomenon, a psychological drive that exists continuously but which intensifies and comes to the forefront at 7⅓-year intervals before receding again into the background. Other drives correspond to other planetary periods.

From this perspective the evolution of psychological astrology is the evolution of astrologers' understanding of the effects astrology actually encompasses, and of how those effects are indicated. That's how I read Kaiousei no Senshi's useful comments in his initial response to the OP, and waybread's inclusion of English-language astrologers Arroyo, Greene and Rudhyar as more recent contributors, to which I would add Grant Lewi and some of his transitist predecessors. However, the lack of academic degrees worried about by waybread, Zarathu and Kaiousei no Senshi would be relevant only if astrology were much more advanced than it actually is (in which case the degrees would be in astrology and would include relevant psychological knowledge).
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Will the real psychology please stand up? Astrologers don't get to define what it is. Credentialed psychologists do. And we kid ourselves if we think that references to some old humanistic psychologists of the 19th and 20th centuries is going to cut it.

Psychology, like any discipline, moves forward. It builds upon the work of its Great Ones, but it also sometimes critiques and disavows earlier work that proved to be unsustainable. Freud's fabricated research "results" would be a major example. But surely you know this? I'd like to see "psychological astrologers" cite current work in psychology. Journals such as the following may be of interest: http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=browsePA.volumes&jcode=rel
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=browsePA.volumes&jcode=aca
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=browsePA.volumes&jcode=amp

But I don't hold my breath.

For the record, Gail Sheehy's degrees are in English, home economics, and journalism.

I take your point that astrology is theoretically weakly developed. But this doesn't mean it is sensible or wise for non-credentialed people to identify their branch of the field as psychological astrology. It just shows our ignorance.

Liz Greene's credentials are a case in point. She did finally get a Ph. D. late in life from an accredited university, but it isn't in psychology.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
spock said:
However, the lack of academic degrees worried about by waybread, Zarathu and Kaiousei no Senshi would be relevant only if astrology were much more advanced than it actually is (in which case the degrees would be in astrology and would include relevant psychological knowledge).

Hello, I can't speak for waybread or Zarathu, but I don't see the plights of psychological astrology as really any different from, say medical astrology in the modern age (aside from the inherent differences in the ability to verify). I, personally, am more likely to consider the opinion and practices of someone who has formal education in medicine or a sub-discipline of it over someone who does not. In the past, most university trained doctors were astrologers, so their texts on the subject were basically their polished up case files. Similarly, I am more likely to trust the opinions and practices of someone with a degree in psychology if I were to study psychological astrology.

If I'm reading your post correctly, it seems like you are putting most of the focus on the astrological part (that if astrology were more academically accepted, they would be astrologers who do psychology, not psychologists who do astrology). However, my main focus is on the part of the astrologer who is able to take their education and profession and apply that to their astrological work.

Making the best of what we have. :)
 
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