I think you mentioned that he was down on tropical though, because it's more mundane than spiritual?
He never said anything supportive about the use of the Tropical Zodiac, that I can recall.
I only use it to make reference to the Sabian Symbols because the Sabian Symbols, as far as I can tell to date, have always been affixed to the Tropical Zodiac but only in reference. As they are influences that are definitely not affixed to the stars and constellations but, rather, the influence of the Sun upon the earth.
As to why the Sabian Symbol for Aries 01* is always the Sabian Symbol for the Sun when the Spring Equinox is achieved [the moment it is, the Sun is then considered to be at 00* 00' 01"] because that is the emergence of new life and that is what the precept that is the symbolism of the Sabian for the 1st degree of Aries is entirely about While it is the Vernal Equinox in the Southern Hemisphere is something I have no explanation for as yet.
Might it be that as for anyone born in the Southern Hemisphere that the reference to the Sabians should then be shifted 180 degrees? I don't know, it does make sense but I've only studied a few natal charts of notable persons born in the Southern Hemisphere and to blunt, they weren't notable enough as to where any great amount was written about them, or at least not to my knowledge, nor had I any knowledge of their existence at all until I began such a search... and I also don't personally know anyone born in the Southern Hemisphere.
As to giving any different interpretation to a natal chart, for that of a human or a nation, that only involves switching the role of the M.C. with that of the I.C. That is the role of the M.C. as to the interpretation of the chart axis, i.e the Asc., Desc., I.C., and M.C., which represents symbolically as to "WHY" the transformation from "WHO" that person is, which is symbolically revealed by the Sabian Symbol found for the Sign and deree of the natal chart Ascendant, to that of "WHERE-TO", which in turn is symbolically revealed by the Sabian Symbol found for the Descendant, "HOW" the transformation is to be accomplished is, in turn itself revealed symbolically by the Sabian Symbol found for the Sign and degree of the I.C. What that all amounts to is an interpretation of a natal chart as to that individuals'mundane affairs ... and for most people that's probably enough, as that's all they concern themselves with their entire life. It's all that Rudhyar illustrated by explanation in his book on the Sabian Symbols, specifically in the chapter of that book titled, "The Cross And The Star".
I find it to be both stupefying and frustrating that after nearly 12 years of writing at this forum that you other members still haven't gotten yourselves a copy of and read Dane's book on the Sabian Symbols.
"As Dane wrote in that chapter, [
I am providing the following under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, of the United States of America, in which, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. The following is an excerpt from the book "An Astrological Mandala The Cycle Of Transformation And Its 360 Symbolic Phases", by Dane Rudhyar, Random House Inc., New York, 1973]
"The cross formed by the horizon and the Meridian - the axes of consciousness and power - has given rise to varied interpretations at several levels of meaning. When we are dealing with the Sabian Symbols and their interpretation in terms of cyclic process, we have to give a somewhat special but highly significant meaning to the two ends of the axis of consciousness. Consciousness results from activity, even if we have to realize that the character of this activity, in its creative aspect, depends upon a prior, but transcendent aspect of germination that is the starting point of activity in the vegetable kingdom brings out what is latent in the seed. Every action can be said to come out of some kind of seed; at the highest metaphysical level the universal seed is Space* *[During periods of existential cosmic 'manifestation'. Space is extended in many dimensions because there are a great many levels of cosmic activity. But in terms of 'non-manifestation', Space can be said to have withdrawn inward in the dimensional mathematical point.]
Universal space has often been symbolized by an ocean, an infinite ocean of potentiality. In the Sabian set of symbols, the emergence of activity - and therefore of consciousness, as consciousness is implied in this activity - is represented by the Aries 01* symbol, because Aries 01* represents the beginning of a cycle of activity. A new
form"of existence is emerging, surrounded by the karma of the past
[the seal embracing the woman]. In the subsequent symbols we see this activity gaining objectivity [2*], gaining a deep intuition of its wholeness [3*], achieving a feeling for the polarized energies on which it depends in order to operate [4*], and revealing a latent capacity to transcend its nature[5*
the triangle with wings].This emergence leads to a condition in which the creative impulse, after having passed through many maturing experiences, finds itself
essentialized in the full revelation of the archetypal Seed-form that had called it into being for a particular purpose.
This archetypal form is symbolized by the perfect "butterfly" of the Libra 01* symbol. The form is perfect. The conscious mind, on the basis of the revelation of the archetype, is able to participate in a group as an equal among equals,
because it has had the 'vision' of its inherent archetypal perfection. .... Libra has little to do with '
balance - a most superficial interpretation of th symbol of the Scales - but it refers to the realization of ones'
value in terms of ones' place and function in a larger community."
As Dane implied a number of times in various writings that the "path of true discipleship begins in Virgo" I was eventually able to see what he was trying to convey, too get us to see for ourselves...as for some reason or purpose, I've yet to understand... He wouldn't, and didn't [not to my knowledge, anyways] ever come out and just say it. That "it" being that the Esoteric astrologers of the Theosophists' had it partially correct, in that on should follow the Zodiac in a clockwise direction through the Signs, but not from Aries 1* as the starting point, at least not for this process of cyclic transformation and its 360 phases, but rather from Virgo 30* and culminating with Libra 01*.
As the symbol for Libra 01* is [ibid.]
IN A COLLECTION OF PERFECT SPECIMENS OF MANY BIOLOGICAL FORMS, A BUTTERFLY DISPLAYS THE BEAUTY OF ITS WINGS, ITS BODY IMPALED BY A FINE DART" [.and Dane notes in the text of his analysis and summation for the symbolism found in the Sabian for Libra 01*, that this represents the beginning of the Autumnal cycle, i.e. the Fall equinox, the symbolic time of the harvest, and that it is a time consecrated to the seed, just as the Spring equinox is consecrated to the germ, the new rise of life which in-forms the growth of individual organisms. It's at this Autumnal point that the drive toward individualization and self assertion loses its momentum and a fresh impetus arises, that toward a collective of individuals but it is even more than that, as it also has a much deeper meaning, and also, an inner source of power. What is the divine precept here that is ordained is not merely a collective of individuals, the core purpose is the 'descent', or externalization, of archetypal realities is now gradually beginning.. The symbolism here is about a "perfect form"... the result of the metamorphosis of a worm into a butterfly a symbolic process given so as for the purpose that the possibility also exists for all humankind that we can become more than just a biological human, but also transformed into a trans-humanal being, a true Initiate, an Adept, the Perfected Being. Dane noted that Marc Edmond Jones mimeographed course, in which He first learned of the existence of the Sabian Symbols that marc re-ascertained with the assistance of the clairvoyant, Elsie Wheeler, that Marc had it for the symbolism of the first degree of Libra that, [ibid.]"the perfect butterfly is impaled by a fine dart; the symbol of 'dart of wisdom'", while the original notation of what Elsie said she saw was [ibid.]"a butterfly made perfect by a dart trough it"\', suggesting a process of perfection through sacrifice." Dane then commented, [ibid.] "As I see it, the dart can hardly be said to have
made the butterfly perfect, but it
keeps it perfect by killing the living organism. The impaled butterfly is preserved by the dart which 'fixes' it in perfection for a whole cycle, i.e. it makes an archetype of it. By thus escaping the normal process of dying and decay, the butterfly form [the 'perfection'] is kept. It is kept in the mystical Shamballah, where it is said that the Pattern of Man is kept, just as the perfect bar measuring exactly one meter is [or was] kept in a crypt in Paris, where the metric system was originally devised. The perfect butterfly thus represents the outcome of the process of occult discipleship symbolized by the Sign Virgo. From then on, a new process begins, that of collectivization; at the very core of that new process
the perfect Form of Man must remain as a standard of value if this process is to be valid and meaningful.
As Dane wrote for his summation of his presentation and analysis of the Sabian Symbol for the 1st degree of Libra [ibid.]
"This is the first statement in the thirteenth scene of the great ritual drama. It is an actional phase because in it the perfection of individual activity is revealed and immortalized. This is the symbolical Transfiguration; at the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus, the Son of Man, was 'impaled' by the ray of Divine Light, making of him a Son of God. It was at this very moment that he learned of the Crucifixion awaiting him. Thus the merely human individual is MADE SACRED, becoming the pure embodiment of an archetype." ...and Dane's "Keynote" synopsis of the Sabian for the 1st degree of Libra is given as [ibid.] " The immortal archetypal reality that a perfect and dedicated life reveals."
You may have noticed that Dane wrote that the symbolism of the 1st degree of Libra is the result of [ibid.] "the outcome of the process of occult discipleship symbolized by the Sign Virgo. From then on a new process begins..." Well, it seems to me that if a new process of cyclic transformation begins in Virgo that it would last a lot longer, that it would take more than just 30 phases to reach a state of perfection. Yeshu'a/Jesus was born with Libra 01* as His Asc., He was born with that as his awareness, that He was born in perfected form [because of the unique set of Divinely ordained circumstances that He was born as a Son to the woman whom was the physical manifestation of the other half of His own soul, Miriam/Mary [as Edgar Cayce explained is the only was by which a virgin birth can produce a male child, is that the child must possess the other, the "masculine' half, of the mothers' own soul. As Miriam/Mary, was herself born by virgin birth to her mother, in turn, 'Hannah/Anne, there may be a bit more as to how that can occur, or why it had to in particular for the incarnation of that soul that was Yeshu'a/Jesus. That Pluto was also in the first degree of Libra and thereby conj. His Asc. is of profound significance [and also why there was such a clandestine, and so obviously near desperate also, attempt by some individual within the I.A.U. to denigrate Pluto by reducing its status in the hope of dissuading folks from taking this natal chart of his seriously. That move by the I.A.U. was pulled off during the first conference they had immediately after I was was given an hour to presnt my discovery and findings on a nationally transmitted radio program, the previous December 22nd, in 2005.] The Moon was in the 30th degree of Virgo when He was born, and just over 12 degrees from an exact oppostion at the time of birth, therefore in just a little over 24 hours away from being a Full Moon and had already rising on the horizon, thereby obfuscating Pluto's influence and modifying it in someway. As many of you should know, already realize, that the Moon always appears to be at its largest and brightest the night before and the night after the full Moon. If you can't understand the phenomena, stand in front of a mirror with a flashlight and then switch it on and point the flashlight dirctly at the mirror so as to make the light reflect back at you directly along the same path. Now do the same holding the flashlight away from you and from an angle make its light reflect directly at you. You'll notice that you are getting a lot more light hitting your person than by the other means of doing it.As I have concluded that there is very likely something to do with Pluto's return to Libra 01* after 108 orbits around the Sun [which takes apprx. somewhere between 26,600 and 26,800 years, which is very close to in the number of years by Sri Yuketeswar's estimate, the measure in years of one complete Great Yuga presented in His book "The Holy Science", published in 1890, and in which atomic structure of atoms is also described which was some years before Western scientist were able to construct a basic model of the structure of an atom and some 42 years before Western science got their basic model correct. Sri Yukteswar got his information from the ancient Vedas. From wikipedia, the following: "Sri Yukteswar’s introduction to The Holy Science includes his explanation of the Yuga Cycle which differs from the traditional position because of his premise that the earth is now in the age of Dwapara Yuga, not the Kali Yuga that most Indian pundits believe to be the current age. His theory is based on the idea that the sun 'takes some star for its dual and revolves round it in about 24,000 years of our earth – a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac.' The common explanation for this celestial phenomenon is precession, the ‘wobbling’ rotating movement of the earth axis. Research into Sri Yukteswar’s explanation is being conducted by the Binary Research Institute.
He further states that:
The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Vishnu-Naabhi which is the seat of the creative power Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates Dharma the mental virtues of the internal world. When the sun in its revolution round its dual come to the place nearest to this grand center the seat of Brahma {an event which takes place when the autumnal equinox comes to the first point of Aries} Dharma the mental virtue becomes so much developed that man can easily comprehend all, even the mysteries of Spirit.
In The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar concludes that we are currently in the beginning stages of Dwapara Yuga, which began around 1699 A.D., moving closer to the grand center, and will pass into Treta Yuga around the year 4099 A.D.
If we represent the Yugas in a clock, the lowest spiritual time would be at 6 o'clock, approx. year 550 A.D., which is the center of Kali Yuga {more or less the Middle Ages}, and the highest point is 12 o'clock, in the center of Satya Yuga {literally Age of Truth, as sat=truth}, or Golden Age. It takes approx. 12,000 years from the lowest to the highest point, and about 24,000 in a complete turn. Now we would be at approx. 7 c'clock, ascending in Dwapara Yuga or Bronze Age which started in 1699."] I also believe that there may be cycles consisting of mulitples of 666 years and 888 years, as when 666 is multiplied by 4, the result is the same as that of 888 multiplied by 3, i.e. 2644, and thus I believe that we may eventually find that the true time in years for the completion of one Great Yuga to be ten times that amount, i.e. 26,440 years. When I first came up with the theory, regarding cycles of 666 and 888 years, I thought that they must be planetary and were the orbits of yet to be discovered planets orbiting our Sun. I've since come to a nother theory that they might very likely be cyclles of conjunctions. I was told, some years ago, the the "Saros" has a cycle at, or very near to, in years 666 for its completion. I began some research on that some years ago, but it has been shelved for quite some time, so long in fact that I'll probably have to begin afresh as I likely won't understand my own notes after such a length of time. Venus and the Sun, for an example, take 1200 years to complete their cycle of conjunctions during which span of time the Sun and Venus in those conjunctions complete the ascribing of every possible pentagram one could make from the 360 degrees of the Zodiac, i.e. all 72 of them. Rudolf Steiner predicted that the soul that had been Parsival [piercethevale] would return just before the new millennium as a 1200 year cycle will have been completed of those Sun Venus conjunctions by the time of his re-birth in the 20th century. So, apparently there is a connection between astrological/astronomical cycles and periods of re-incarnations. That of the avatars, has something to do with Pluto and the first degree of Libra. I figure that the theory of the creation of the planets [the Thelma Mundi, I believe, the some ancients tabled that event as?] as having been all spewed forth from our Sun at once, that from a heliocentric viewpoint, those planets were all aligned toward the first degree of Libra, and as any act of creation by God is an act of perfection, it is only when that perfect position is again occupied by Pluto, "THE PLANET OF DEATH AND TRANSFORMATION" ...yes, I did intentionally write PLUTO THE PLANET, because it most certainly is a PLANET, and recently discovered to be a binary Planet, as well, which means its field of point of origin of its influence is much larger than that of the planet Mars or Venus, in fact it is more than half the diameter of Jupiter or i 1/2 times the diameter of Uranus, as the distance to Charon, to Pluto' sbarycenter is about 47,000 miles.] I've really digressed here, so getting back to the question of as to why there are two ways to interpret a natal chart axis that involves switching the roles of the I.C. and the M.C., i.e. the two points of the meridian that symbolically represent the "HOW" and the "WHY", of the transformation from that of the "WHO" at the Asc. to that of the "WHERE-TO" at the Desc. As the 30th degree of Virgo has as it's Sabian Symbol the following, perhaps some of you, those that are on paths of discipleship, or have attempted it at some time in your life, or even just are familar with such paths from having studied the subject, read of it, what ever...
[ibid.]
"
VIRGO 30°: TOTALLY INTENT UPON COMPLETING AN IMMEDIATE TASK, A MAN IS DEAF TO ANY ALLUREMENT.
KEYNOTE: The total concentration required for reaching any spiritual goal.
This is the final symbol of the first half of the cycle. In the year cycle the fall equinox is now at hand; autumn begins. Through spring and summer many ways and byways have been experienced. The last message of this hemicycle of 'Individualization' is that on all decisive occasions what must be done has to be done so intently that no outer voices can penetrate the mind, still less the soul. The neophyte stands at the gates of the sacred Pyramid. There is only one step he can take — ahead, or he is lost.
This is the culminating step, the decision that results from a myriad of small choices. Still a shadow of hesitation can remain. Attention may be distracted from the Now by a voice from the past, glamorizing some old memory. The outer doors of perception and thought must be closed, so the soul can complete its
CONQUEST OF ILLUSION."
Can you understand what is implied here? That this is the first step on a path of true discipleship. The Guru doesn't tolerate any that don't give rapt attention, otherwise they expell you from class instantly... they don't like to waste their time.
It is the beginning of the CONQUEST OF ILLUSION, i.e MAYA, and thus the first of the 360 cyclic symbolic phases that leads one out of the illusion, from being entrapped in the material realm. and that which culminates with Libra 01*, i.e. attaining perfect archetypal form. When one begins at Aries 01*, they culminate at Pisces 30* [ibid.]
"
PISCES 30°: A MAJESTIC ROCK FORMATION RESEMBLING A FACE IS IDEALIZED BY A BOY WHO TAKES IT AS HIS IDEAL OF GREATNESS, AND AS HE GROWS UP, BEGINS TO LOOK LIKE IT.
KEYNOTE: The power of clearly visualized ideals to mold the life of the visualizer.
Nathaniel Hawthorne's story "The Great Stone Face" is used here in an allegorical sense to show the capacity for self-transformation latent in man. This power can be developed through visualization, when the emotions and the will are poured into the visualized mental image. At the highest spiritual-cosmic level this is the power used by the God-like Beings at the close of a cosmic cycle in projecting the basic Formula (the Word) which will start a new universe. In a biological sense, it is the power latent in all seeds — the power to produce and guide the growth of the future plant. A most fitting symbol for the last phase of the cyclic process. Within the end of the cycle the seed of a new beginning exists in potency — unless the entire cycle has proven to be a failure.
This is the last stage of the last scene of the great ritual play of cyclic transformations. It brings to us a realization of the power of archetypes as factors conditioning life processes. Thus we could use as a final Keyword:
ARCHETYPALIZATION."
Yeah, thus we cold, but we won't... as for the reason...do I have to draw anyone a picture?
To visualize it while desiring it so intently, the aspirant becoes it in rock, i.e. Rock, dense matter of the material realm. r.e. Trapped in the Illusion,,, not the
CONQUEST OF THE iLLUSION.
ONE PATH IS OF THE MUNDANE, THE OTHER IS OF A PATH TO SPIRITUAL EVOLUTION.
As one proceeds from Aries 01* through the 360 Symbolic Phases, they naturally go from the Asc. through the I.C. before they reach the opposite point at Libra 01*... and the answer therein lies as to how one is to proceed onward to the Desc. It is not unit after that has been accomplished that the understanding as to WHY it had to be and be done in such a way is revealed, is understood.
When one proceeds from an Asc. at Libra 01*, following the cycle of phases of symbols in order to achieve a spiritual transformation, one follows them in the reverse order and thus naturally that passes through the M.C., instead of the I.C., and tus there-in at the M.C. lies the answer as to HOW one then achieves that transformation from WHO to WHERE-TO, and in that cyclic process the answer to "HOW" then is of Career, or of ones base of operations regarding society, that of ones responsibilities before the world. In a mundane chart the 10th House rules the executive branch of government, people in high positions of governmental power, and established government hierarchies of power in general. It is said that for one to find their natal Part of Fortune conjunct their own mid haven, is most auspicious. As I have pointed out that the Part of Fortune really is about how one may best produce the most fortuitous circumstance by which to complete their dharma, to achieve their destiny, then it should be easy to understand why it is so auspicious to have it there... when you use the spiritual evolutionary cyclic process found on your natal chart, the "HOW" of that process of transformation then becomes one with one career and, or, their responsibilities before the world... Life path, Spiritual path, and career path, all become one...
Groovy, isn't it?