The Soul

What is the evidence for (disembodied) souls?

What is the nature of the soul?

What is its function, when disembodied?

I understand "soul" to mean "a personal immortal entity that survives our physical death and is capable of reincarnation, or of 'residence' in some other state or place." At least I think this is what most people mean when they say "soul."

Here are the first three entries for "soul" in Dictionary.com.

1.
the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2.
the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
3.
the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.

I find no evidence for the existence of such an entity, and am interested in understanding what leads us to postulate its existence. Lacking any evidence supporting the existence of this thing we call soul (and indeed, seeing evidence that tends to negate its existence), and not finding such an entity necessary to our lives in the manifest world, it seems to me that the "soul" is the product of wishful thinking grounded in mankind's utter fear of mortality -- that is, that he has a definitive end and is no more.

I do believe that we are eternal and have no birth or death, but not in the sense of "an immortal personal entity."

Would someone like to provide me with good reason to change my mind?

Soul is immortal.

5th and 11th house are to be described as the Immortality axis. One's creativity in term of art, or writing of any form of creation in spiritual or artistic term can last far beyond one's physical life. While one physical immortality can be achieved as by giving life to offspring as physical life, your physical flesh in creativity, your life force then to be extended through the generation as your genes and physical life in various forms continue to live on. One ideal of the larger world, the collective, community can be also be immortal such as the ideal of the common good that is in the 11th house those can uplift and reform and break the old boundaries of the previous world.

I prefer to think of the immortal as consciousness, consciousness which can use a vehicle for its expression, such as the body (when expressing on the physical plane) or the "astral body" (when expressing on one of the subtle planes of manifestation), etc (a variety of vehicles for expression in a variety of planes/dimensions), this consciousness itself being a spark (a temporary particularization) of the Unitary Universal Consciousness (Reality) and, in its essence, merely being a temporal (vis a vis infinity) manifestation of that ONE Universal Consciousness. For me the question is why did the Unitary Universal Consciousness "spark off" (so to speak) at "X time" (in infinity) into a particular "individual consciousness" represented by "Y"-to what purpose, for what reason? That (for me) is the metaphysical question....

greybeard said:

Would someone like to provide me with good reason to change my mind?

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It sounds as if your viewpoint matches what your life circumstance has developed for you.

As such, its doesn't appear that anything other that having your own soul reach out and talk to you would work to change your mind. And even then, it sounds as if you might chalk it up to some kind of developing schizophrenia.

Suppose someone told you that their Soul actually does speak to them in their mind. That would not be the kind of proof you require.

In fact, to try to pursuade you other wise, it would be useful for you to share what kind of proof would be necessary to pass muster.

Thanks Dr. Farr...I agree (already) with what you say.

Gee Z....what sort of life circumstance would match my viewpoint?
I have been concerned with the onset of schizophrenia for some time now...this little voice keeps insisting it's real, and I know it just can't be.
I'm not looking for any particular "kind of proof." I asked for evidence, not proof. I asked for good reason to change my mind.

As you can see, I agree with Dr. Farr entirely.

My question is about the "individual personal soul"... For example, people speak of "past lives" as if THEY...the essence of the person we see, know and love...travels intact and whole, from one existence to another.

One day, while caught in a Butte County traffic jam (4 cowboys were moving their herd down the road, completely blocking all traffic) I thought about the soul....

I likened the human body to a raindrop. I asked, "Where does the soul reside?", and then followed the raindrop, from the depths of the vast ocean to the cloud to the mountain to the flowers and birds that took up that raindrop into their bodies to the river to the ocean.....and nowhere did I find a suitable and exclusive habitation for the soul of that raindrop. The raindrop kept changing form, size, location....it never stayed the same, transforming from free molecules in the ocean, to vapor, to cloud, to raindrop, to splatter that divided and went various places (into the body of a thirsty plant, deep into the Earth, in a spring down the mountainside, into a bottle of beer, down the river, back to the ocean. The human body, in this regard, is not different from the raindrop. Everything is ephemeral, never the same.

Or a rather striking example, the single-celled bacteria. Here's Charlie Bacteria, and one fine day he decides to split in two. So now we have Charlie and Gertrude. Does Gertrude "have" Charlie's soul? Did Charlie keep it? Do they share it? Did a new (old) soul come down from on high and infuse Gertrude? Which one is Gertrude? As you can see, there are some conundrums here.

But now I feel better. My worries about schizophrenia are nothing when compared to the plight of Charlie and Gertrude.

greybeard said:

Gee Z....what sort of life circumstance would match my viewpoint?
I have been concerned with the onset of schizophrenia for some time now...this little voice keeps insisting it's real, and I know it just can't be.
I'm not looking for any particular "kind of proof." I asked for evidence, not proof. I asked for good reason to change my mind.

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In this situation, what is the difference between evidence and proof? I can't imagine any evidence. What would you consider evidence?

I can give you my opinion, although, I consider it to be more than just an opinion. In my life, so far, I have had the most wonderful privilege of having certain teachers, certain counselors, who reside in another dimension of existence. Now there will be some who will already be turned off to what I am about to say because it sounds as if, at the very least, I am deluded if not mentally ill. I assure you that it is neither. Also, there will be those who have adopted certain religious beliefs that are incongruous with what I am about to say, but I ask that you have an open mind.

I could write quite a bit about the differences between physical incarnation, the soul and the spirit, but I will just address two of the questions that you have posed.

What is the soul and where does it reside?

The soul is the conscious body of your body. It is more you than your physical body ever will be because it is not subject to the cellular degradative process. It is the reservoir of all of your experiences in life, from the moment you breathed your first breath (and even sometime before then) to the moment you gasp your last—and it continues beyond. Every love you had, every hurt you felt, every memory accompanied by a tear or a laugh is recorded within your soul body for the record of your eternal existence. It is located in the abdominal area, in a sense. This is the point where your etheric bead connects to your soul, which is intertwined with your body. The etheric bead, which can be thought of as a multi-dimensional umbilical cord, connects the soul to its spirit. One's spirit does not reside in physical matter. It's in another dimension entirely. Its high vibratory rate prevents it from entering the Earth experience.

The soul is uniquely Greybeard but your spirit has been in existence for millions and millions of years, in all likelihood. This is not to say that you have had one Earth life after another. It is a great mistake to assume that we must reincarnate in order to have a meaningful experience. The multiverse is vast and offers a diverse and fantastic opportunity to experience "life" in many meaningful ways. Reincarnation achieved a strong foothold in the minds of many because of Eastern religious doctrines, but there is no religion in the beyond. Religion is an earthly phenomenon; it has very little to do with spirit. Past life memories—although can and do come from an experience of reincarnation—more often result from a close relationship with someone here on Earth while you were discarnate. Sometimes, while not on the Earth realm, you form a close relationship with another in the capacity of a spirit guide or something similar. It is these memories that can be confused as one's own.

I got this information from communications with the dead.

I believe the 12 zodiacs are the 12 faces of God, as a whole the soul will eventually be completed and be liked God, to reach the final state of Spirit.

In Chinese cultures, there are some complex philosophy in the understanding of the soul魂(Soul) 魄 (Spirit)


In Chinese teaching Soul Spirit are together yet can be separated. Soul+Spirit can be divided into 2 groups, 3魂 (Hun) and 7魄 (Po) which is the teaching of Tao from Taoism. Immorality is the core of Taoism.

You may find these links interesting in exploring the introductory of these concepts.

http://www.taoistmasterblog.com/taoism-vs-reincarnation/

Fundamentally there is no you and I, this and that - all are part of the same single thing - The Tao. The Tao is the thing that is immortal and as a part of it, so are we, but I see nothing in nature to convince me that anything of my personal identity would survive after death, and indeed what use is that identity without the physical person? Nature doesn't retain things out of sentiment.

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http://path-of-water.blogspot.com.au/2008/03/death-immortality-soul.html

Tao is the ultimate reality, a presence that existed before the universe was formed and which continues to guide the world and everything in it. Tao is sometimes identified as the Mother, or the source of all things. That source is not a god or a supreme being, as Taoism is not monotheistic. The focus is not to worship one god, but instead on coming into harmony with tao (Hartz, 8). Tao is the essence of everything that is right, and complications exist only because people choose to complicate their own lives. Desire, ambition, fame, and selfishness are seen as 1 hindrances to a harmonious life. It is only when a person rids himself of all desires can tao be achieved. By shunning every earthly distraction, the Taoist is able to concentrate on life itself. The longer the person’s life, the more saintly the person is presumed to have become. Eventually the hope is to become immortal, to achieve tao, to have reached the deeper life.

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http://onlineessays.com/essays/religion/taoism.php

I studied my primary school based on the philosophy of Buddhism then later on in Secondary school years the combined of all three Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. Later on changed to another secondary school which is Baptism/Christianity and now working in Catholic Hospital. Wola! My entire life built based on the foundation stone of Jupiter in Sagittarius at IC.

A lot of people confused about the Taoism and Buddhism from the link I listed above, here is the quote I like. Tao is the individual path that no one can tell you what to do but you must find your unique path toward it.

The inner light concept is similar, but the actual path is the difference between Taoism and Buddhism. The path toward enlightenment for the Buddhist was defined by Buddha in his Eightfold Path. Only through following this path does the Buddhist reach Nirvana. The path to Tao is individual, it comes from within. No one can define a path for the Taoist, it must come from the inner light. “Tao means way, but in the original and succeeding manuscripts no direct path is explored or expounded. Desire, ambition, fame, and selfishness are seen as complications. That idea is consistent with Buddhist teachings; it is the personal life of each individual that gives Taoism its special form” (Leek 188). Taoism and Buddhism perceive life, death and rebirth as a continuous cycle. This cycle has no beginning and no end. The soul is eternal, yet the soul is not the object of reincarnation. Taoist believe the soul is not reborn, it “migrates to another life” (Head3 109).

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Buddhist also believe the soul is not reborn, but instead a “consciousness containing the seeds of good and evil deeds” is the object of rebirth (Leek 171). One major difference between Taoism and Buddhism is the concept of karma to the Buddhist. This idea that all actions are the display of thought, the will of man, is known as karma. Karma determines the Buddhist actions and position in life. A person’s karma limits the goals which can be achieved. Karma determines where in the cycle of birth, death and rebirth the consciousness returns. This return can be in the form of an animal or human, and the 7 Buddhist must progress through a hierarchy to achieve Nirvana (Leek 171).

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The Taoist has no concept similar to karma, and no mention of the soul migrating to an animal form. The determining factor to one’s life is contained in the individual behavior for the Taoist. By forsaking personal desires in life, by concentrating of the self, a longer life is prolonged. Eventually, by following the inner light, immortality can be achieved.

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I can't say that I have any evidence to prove the above. I can only say that you have to find your own Tao.

Where in the physical body (of animals and hmans) is the point of connection with the spark (or what has been referred to in this thread as the "soul")? According to certain esoteric traditions this point of connection is the thalamus ("the physical residence of the soul", also "the seat of the soul", as termed in some of the oldtime esoteric writings) Indian and Buddhist esotericism would take the "crown chakra" as this "connecting point" (or perhaps its a concentrating points?)-which physiologically (in animals and humans) would put it connected with the pineal gland.
Of course such (alleged) connections or points are irrelevant to a metaphysical discussion about the NATURE of the "soul"-however in practical esoteric "work", such things are of considerable importance...

In my opinion, 99,99% of weird, supernatural or mystical experiences and also the stuff which modern medicine is treating as psychosis can be attributed to Kundalini energy.

For those who are not acquainted with the term

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini

Also, there is a very interesting book on Kundalini experiences which lasted a lifetime

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content...volutionary-energy-in-man-by-Gopi-Krishna.pdf

My favorite Kundalini story

http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/24/grant.html


In over a decade of meditation practice I've had it all: vivid and lucid dreams, visions which looked like hallucinations, extreme precognition, reading people's mind, being able to tell something about someone just by looking in their eyes, meditations so deep after which I didn't know my name (who I am) or name of the planet (where I am) for couple of minutes, one time in meditation I stopped breathing for 15 minutes (that is actually called Kevala Kumbhaka), non sexual orgasms in the region of heart, famous Ahimsa (non violence) power - in my presence people were unable to perform violence, almost instantaneous fulfillment of wishes and many more...
With Kundalini you never know, anything is possible, even talking to the dead or to one's own soul.

Here I want to share my deepest and most profound Kundalini experience. It happened on one summer night while I was walking home. That was over a decade ago while I was in my late twenties. Usually, I've noticed Kundalini as a hot or cold energy running up and down through my spine. On that night Kundalini was hotter than usual and as a sort of the game I tried to concentrate on that feeling. After couple of minutes suddenly I realized that Kundalini, my breathing and my consciousness are one and the same. In that moment Kundalini exploded. I felt sharp pressure in the perineum and my heart rate went through the roof. What was tiny sensation in my spine seconds earlier, became like a huge force field around me. She (Kundalini) was raw and forceful and yet intelligent beyond human comprehension - I knew that I was at her mercy, totally without any control. It seemed to me that my pulse was 200+, that it is not possible for human heart to beat that fast, I was expecting heart failure any moment. I remember that my last thought was: "So, this is it, this is how it ends!" And I simply let go...

In that moment all my senses shut down and my journey began. It was like She transferred me into another reality. There was still sense of "I" or separateness, but I simply knew, beyond any doubt, that I was experiencing the ultimate reality and my previous life seemed distant and unimportant like a long forgotten dream from twenty years ago. I wasn't the person who walked home that night, I was something else. There was no thoughts in that state, there was no thought mechanism. All realizations came in the form of feelings (sort of). These feelings were subtle but full of meaning, like they had the whole libraries inside them. I felt I was timeless, undestructible, forever. I felt I was all knowing. Also, there was a feeling of unimaginable joy, happiness beyond description.

When it was over, I fully regained my normal consciousness. It seemed that my body walked on its own, I was 20-30 meters further down the road. So, only 10-20 seconds passed for what seemed as an eternity to me.

In conclusion, based on my experience, I just want to say: I don't know about the soul but there is a lot more to our existence than this life!

Cap said:

I've noticed Kundalini as a hot or cold energy running up and down trough my spine.

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That is exactly what it is, but it's actually hot and cold simultaneously, if you can imagine that.

Thanks for sharing the post.

dr. farr said:

Where in the physical body (of animals and hmans) is the point of connection with the spark (or what has been referred to in this thread as the "soul")? According to certain esoteric traditions this point of connection is the thalamus ("the physical residence of the soul", also "the seat of the soul", as termed in some of the oldtime esoteric writings) Indian and Buddhist esotericism would take the "crown chakra" as this "connecting point" (or perhaps its a concentrating points?)-which physiologically (in animals and humans) would put it connected with the pineal gland.
Of course such (alleged) connections or points are irrelevant to a metaphysical discussion about the NATURE of the "soul"-however in practical esoteric "work", such things are of considerable importance...

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I kind of imagined the "physical residence of the soul" as a metaphor... I mean, for me, "soul" and "body" are like two sides of the same coin. Where does this split come from? Why do we suppose that it is an unembodied soul that gives us our uniqueness, when whatever we encounter in nature is unique? There are no two stones that are the same, or two flowers, not even the two hands of the same person are alike... but we can go even further and ask why is it important that there exists something we call "spirit" as opposed to something we call "matter", and that one is superior to the other, when we actually cannot experience either "spirit" or "matter" in itself? I cannot think of anything in nature, not even a rotting leaf that is "inanimate". Why do we assume that while "spirit" is utterly complex and mysterious, "matter" is common and profane? Why do we suppose that while "God" is infinite and incomprehensible, "matter" or "nature" is finite and all its secrets can be cracked and hacked?

In stercore invenitur. The elixir of life is there, even in faeces...

Funny that I should stumble on this discussion today, after spending several days experimenting with Fortuna Charts.

I can't say that I have an opinion as to whether or not souls live on past the usefullness of the body. Some days I think yes, other days I think we are given only one life and so ought to cherish it while we have it. Mostly, I just think there has to be a reason we are here. Especially when we consider that it is written in the stars.

I don't know if it adds to the discussion or not, greybeard, but the ancients did have a method for determining the "soul" if you will, in lots. Fortune as the physical body, and Spirit as the force which animates that body. In conjunction with the lots of Basis and the Exaltation they could very accurately predict what would motivate an individual, and whether or not it would be achieved.

Even Guido Bonatti has an entire chapter in his treastise on the qualities of the soul.

Personally, I'm more of the Gnostic opinon that we were somehow trapped here in a world created by an inferior God (for lack of a better term) and are all trying to get back to the divine from whence we came.

Or...have you ever read Peirs Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series?

I actually think anything in physical level is just another form of illusion as much as we can sense in every level, same as in our dreams.

This is just our temporary home.

I have been trying to learn more about Part/Lot of Spirit which is in conjunction to my 3rd house Mercury less than 1 degree, ruler of the AC & MC. Moon directly rules my Part of Fortune. The problem is me being very greedy and reading a bit of everything at the same time, like eating in the buffet

tsmall said:

Personally, I'm more of the Gnostic opinon that we were somehow trapped here in a world created by an inferior God (for lack of a better term) and are all trying to get back to the divine from whence we came.
)

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This was a powerful idea during the early centuries when astrology (as we know it today) was being synthesized: interesting (along these lines) that the Vedic term for planets is "grahas", which-translated-literally means "grabbers" (the planets "grab" the fate/development/life of the individual, similar to the gnostic doctrine regarding planets and their "capturing control" of souls...)

tsmall said:

Funny that I should stumble on this discussion today, after spending several days experimenting with Fortuna Charts.

I can't say that I have an opinion as to whether or not souls live on past the usefullness of the body. Some days I think yes, other days I think we are given only one life and so ought to cherish it while we have it. Mostly, I just think there has to be a reason we are here. Especially when we consider that it is written in the stars.

I don't know if it adds to the discussion or not, greybeard, but the ancients did have a method for determining the "soul" if you will, in lots. Fortune as the physical body, and Spirit as the force which animates that body. In conjunction with the lots of Basis and the Exaltation they could very accurately predict what would motivate an individual, and whether or not it would be achieved.

Even Guido Bonatti has an entire chapter in his treastise on the qualities of the soul.

Personally, I'm more of the Gnostic opinon that we were somehow trapped here in a world created by an inferior God (for lack of a better term) and are all trying to get back to the divine from whence we came.

Or...have you ever read Peirs Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series?

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By the way, during the final minutes of a recent podcast, world renowned astrologer Robert Hand discusses the soul http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/12/09/robert-hand-reconciling-modern-traditional-astrology/

QUOTE

'....I prefer the older language its cleaner
for example 'soul'

ask an astrologer what part of the chart describes the soul

it is the faculty that makes a living thing alive

in sentient beings
the soul is that part
that makes it that particular sentient being
and not someone else....' Robert Hand

The only Piers Anthony I read was "Macroscope", a science fiction tale with plenty of astrology in it.

The Ascendant also distinguishes us from all other created beings.

greybeard said:

The only Piers Anthony I read was "Macroscope", a science fiction tale with plenty of astrology in it.

The Ascendant also distinguishes us from all other created beings.

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All sentient beings are dependent for their existence on other sentient beings who are their parents
and so on ad infinitum

having been conceived and then given birth to

the Ascendant of the natal chart of the sentient being is indeed a distinguishing factor

BECAUSE the Ascendant is based on time and space

also known as spacetime

Each Ascendant is completely different
because

each sentient being is born with a unique combination of location combined with time


Main Rulerships of First House which includes the Ascendant

Life, vitality and health.

Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body


Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech


In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance, the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler indicates the level of personal vitality and strength http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html