The book of revelation

I believe we are now living through the period covered by the above.
The Blessed Virgin Mary in her role as a Mediatrix between God & man has appeared at Medjugorje since 1981, she has stated this is the last time she will appear on earth before the end. She appeared at Bayside USA along with Jesus to the visionary Veronica (1970-94), amongst other things she was told was how Satan had entered the church in Rome in the 1970's and how he will use the UFO phenomenon to trick mankind into believing aliens exist. When the christian church is Raptured, news media will report to those left behind that a mass alien abduction has occurred.
Another good source i believe is the seer Wendy Alec with her books The Fall Of Lucifer, The First Judgement, Son Of Perdition etc. She tells us that Lucifer & his angels rebelled against God after he had created this inferior being he called Adam. They were caste out of Heaven & turned into demons, he then called himself Satan (opposer) and swore he would forever be the adversary of God & his covenant people Jews & christians.
His cloned son the anti-christ was born in Egypt in December 1981 and will come onto the world stage as a charismatic leader at the beginning of the Tribulation period.
With what trusted seers like Jonathan Cahn are saying i believe the Rapture will take place within the next 10 years, sooner rather than later.
A couple of prophesies to look out for, from Bayside, men with beards will attack Rome and the Pope will be forced to flee. Soon after this the world wide warning will happen where everyone will have their lives up to that point flashed before them. Soon after this the Rapture will take place.
Many scholars believe that Ezekiel 38/39 tells of when Putin's Russia together with the armies of Iran/Turkey mass on the mountains above Israel and an earthquake in the area decimates their armies.
Christian prayer & fasting can combat his influence in our church & world, he relies on our apathy to push forward his agenda.

JOHN60 said:

I believe we are now living through the period covered by the above.
The Blessed Virgin Mary in her role as a Mediatrix between God & man has appeared at Medjugorje since 1981, she has stated this is the last time she will appear on earth before the end. She appeared at Bayside USA along with Jesus to the visionary Veronica (1970-94), amongst other things she was told was how Satan had entered the church in Rome in the 1970's and how he will use the UFO phenomenon to trick mankind into believing aliens exist. When the christian church is Raptured, news media will report to those left behind that a mass alien abduction has occurred.
Another good source i believe is the seer Wendy Alec with her books The Fall Of Lucifer, The First Judgement, Son Of Perdition etc. She tells us that Lucifer & his angels rebelled against God after he had created this inferior being he called Adam. They were caste out of Heaven & turned into demons, he then called himself Satan (opposer) and swore he would forever be the adversary of God & his covenant people Jews & christians.
His cloned son the anti-christ was born in Egypt in December 1981 and will come onto the world stage as a charismatic leader at the beginning of the Tribulation period.
With what trusted seers like Jonathan Cahn are saying i believe the Rapture will take place within the next 10 years, sooner rather than later.
A couple of prophesies to look out for, from Bayside, men with beards will attack Rome and the Pope will be forced to flee. Soon after this the world wide warning will happen where everyone will have their lives up to that point flashed before them. Soon after this the Rapture will take place.
Many scholars believe that Ezekiel 38/39 tells of when Putin's Russia together with the armies of Iran/Turkey mass on the mountains above Israel and an earthquake in the area decimates their armies.
Christian prayer & fasting can combat his influence in our church & world, he relies on our apathy to push forward his agenda.

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"Men with beards will attack Rome and the Pope will be forced to flee."...

14th century, the Avignon papacy. It may have happened already.

The attack on Rome comes from the Bayside appearances (1970-94) the prophesies there where all about future events, so this one will happen in the near future I believe.

The Blessed Virgin Mary in her role as a Mediatrix between God & man

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For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus - 1 Timothy 2:5

Everything you claim does not come from Revelation, but from the enemy of truth, who masquerades as an angel of light.

Actually the book of Revelation contains a lot of embedded material about the constellations. See if you can sit down with Revelation and a couple of amateur guides to astronomy, and identify the constellations Virgo, Hydra, Perseus, Cetus, &c. Revelation actually ends with an encoded testimony to the fixed (tropical) zodiac, with the Triumph of the Lamb (spring equinox in Aries.) (Hint: "horns" are stars.)

waybread said:

Actually the book of Revelation contains a lot of embedded material about the constellations. See if you can sit down with Revelation and a couple of amateur guides to astronomy, and identify the constellations Virgo, Hydra, Perseus, Cetus, &c. Revelation actually ends with an encoded testimony to the fixed (tropical) zodiac, with the Triumph of the Lamb (spring equinox in Aries.) (Hint: "horns" are stars.)

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waybread, do you believe that Yeshua is the Anointed One? Are you born again of the spirit?

I believe that Jesus was a very wise teacher, who in many ways promoted the ethical teachings of Judaism, such as caring for the vulnerable members of one's society. I am not a Christian. I do have a serious interest in western religions, and have read the Bible in its entirety a couple of times, not counting frequent references to specific passages. I believe that we are all equally the creations of God.

There have been all kinds of interpretations of the book of Revelation over the centuries.

You and I can imagine the debates re: the sidereal vs. tropical zodiac that must have taken place among astrologers at the time Revelation was codified, ca. 95 CE.

Each "great age" in astrology did see a change in Near Eastern religion that centered on the spring equinox. When the equinox was in Taurus, bull/cow religions flourished, like the Minoans. When the equinox was in Aries, we find the OT full of references to shepherds and sheep. (Moses, David, 23rd Psalm.)

By the turn of the millennium, sky-watchers knew that the equinox was slipping back into Pisces. The gospels describe a divine man who befriended fishermen, walked on water, quelled the waves, and multiplied loaves and fishes. Indeed, two fish together or the single fish (ichthys) were ancient symbols of Christianity.

The book of Revelation describes the warring heavens, where John's various images poetically describe constellations. A good reference guide to how stars and constellations were understood in the past is Allen's Star Names: Their Lore and Meaning.

Revelation ends with heavy symbolism for the number 12, involving the tree of life. Again, very zodiacal.

Petosiris, in previous posts you've made a convincing case for the predominance of the sidereal zodiac in late Antiquity. Nevertheless, at some point, most western (incl. Arab) astrologers switched to the tropical zodiac. Christianity seems to have taken the tropical position.

(Today, ministers still pray to the "Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world....")

Of course, no theologians or members of the clergy would be happy with my interpretation. It is blasphemous to them. However, I found when I was following this line of research that a few other scholars in history had come up with the same conclusion.

If you have time, I hope you will compare Revelation with any good guide to "backyard" astronomy, with Allen or another guide to the lore and history of stars and constellations.

God gave the Revelation to Lord Yeshua to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent it by his servant John (Revelation 1:1). We know that anyone who does not confess that Yeshua has come in the flesh is not of God, but an antichrist (John 1:14, 1 John 2, 1 John 4, 2 John 1). A mythicist-astrological interpretation would suit such a spirit, but not the truth, objective evidence from hundreds of witnesses of the resurrection and fulfillment of prophecies, subjective evidence from the intercession of Christ through the Helper and Comforter in the lives of those who love the Father and keep his commandments.

I believe that Jesus was a very wise teacher, who in many ways promoted the ethical teachings of Judaism, such as caring for the vulnerable members of one's society. I am not a Christian.

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Well, Yeshua and his initial followers were all Jews. Christ says he did not come to abolish the Law and the prophets, but to fulfill them (that is keep them 100%, not in many ways, but in all ways) - Matthew 5:17. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth, but he was pierced for our transgressions, was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. All the nations will be blessed through him.

Christianity seems to have taken the tropical position.

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There is nowhere in scripture, either a prophet, or an apostle that uses astrology.

Are you pulling my leg, or do you truly believe what you just wrote?

If so, I think you'll have to give up astrology. If you're Catholic, the reason is in the catechism. If you're not Catholic, you might follow the reasoning it sets set forth, about how systems of prognostication basically violate the first commandment.

Further, different Christian denominations throughout history have different ways of accepting the Bible. The Catholic church and fundamentalist Protestant denominations take the Bible literally. (This gets kind of interesting because different languages are incapable of translating the same texts identically, word for word.) The gnostics, however, believed that the scriptures were principally metaphorical, which is basically the view of liberal Protestant denominations today.

I don't know if you are Pentecostal but your posts are consistent with their beliefs.

However, a big commandment is, "Love they neighbour as thyself," which sort of leaves out flaming posts on an astrology Internet forum.

The real problem is that Revelation didn't "shortly come to pass," if we read it literally. Nearly 2000 years later, we're still waiting.

Some of the most wonderful people I've ever known are Christian. Interestingly, they came from different backgrounds: Catholic, Mormon, Lutheran. Yet the basic structure and much of the theology of these churches are entirely different. So there's something about Christian love that transcends creeds and articles of faith. And is a lot harder to come by.

Petosiris, a lot of the Bible is metaphorical. In fact, in a few places, it actually says that its words are metaphorical or even cryptic ("He who has ears, let him hear.") Jesus didn't mean that his fishermen disciples would literally become "fishers of men," it's a metaphor. In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul didn't literally mean that people without love are gongs or cymbals: these are metaphors.

So what is the meaning of all of those images in Revelation? They can only be metaphorical, which is actually how theologians write about them. I merely propose that the metaphors are, in fact, astronomical.

Check 'em out.

waybread said:

Are you pulling my leg, or do you truly believe what you just wrote?

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Maybe you haven't heard that I was born again and desired to leave astrology behind. Even if one twists the meaning of divination in Deut. 18:10 to not include astrology, in Matthew 6 Christ says ''Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.'' - ESV. It is difficult to reconcile horoscopy with these things, especially since the primary argument of pagans like Ptolemy and Valens was the so-called calming of the soul. No prophet or apostle ever uses astrology in the Scriptures for a reason, and astrology is frequently presented in a negative light.

If so, I think you'll have to give up astrology. If you're Catholic, the reason is in the catechism. If you're not Catholic, you might follow the reasoning it sets set forth, about how systems of prognostication basically violate the first commandment.

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We might also seriously think about how Catholicism itself violates the first and second commandments.

However, a big commandment is, "Love they neighbour as thyself," which sort of leaves out flaming posts on an astrology Internet forum.

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I ask for your forgiveness for past transgressions, boastings and foolish arguments, and also because of my tone towards someone who has thrice years of mine. There isn't anything I can hold against you.

The real problem is that Revelation didn't "shortly come to pass," if we read it literally. Nearly 2000 years later, we're still waiting.

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Revelation sets up a universal antichrist kingdom that could not have occurred 2000 years ago, but is perfectly within the realm of possibilities today (we have worldwide organizational structures that are not all Christian, and we have Israel restored), and by this we know that the end is even shorter.

''knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.'' - 2 Peter 3:3-9 ESV

Some have put forward the theory that the millenium would occur at the 6000th year after creation. Those who reject Christ await the man of lawlessness by similar times, and we know that the 6000th year is near (for Creation would likely endure 7 days of the Lord as there were days at creation, though most will deliberately overlook this as prophesied). 2000 years in the Lord are like 2 days, so that is truly a short amount of time.

Some of the most wonderful people I've ever known are Christian. Interestingly, they came from different backgrounds: Catholic, Mormon, Lutheran. Yet the basic structure and much of the theology of these churches are entirely different. So there's something about Christian love that transcends creeds and articles of faith. And is a lot harder to come by.

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I live in Eastern Europe where Eastern Orthodox Christianity is the most prevalent faith instead of Catholicism or Protestantism. I was baptized at 13 and ardent for the so-called Orthodox faith for 5 years with the intent of becoming a monk, but I didn't find grace there, and turned to the occult and the so-called scientific knowledge. However, God gave me faith through a supernatural experience while reading John 21:15-17 at the day of the summer solstice. Two years ago I was partially influenced by a Messianic Gentile (a Gentile member of a Messianic Jewish congregation) to study the Scriptures with a different look on them. Before one looks for Sod, he must fully comprehend and understand P'shat. Those who look after idolatry, adultery and sorcery do not want to accept P'shat.

Waybread,

The Catholic church and fundamentalist Protestant denominations take the Bible literally.

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With amount of respect to your experience as a person beyond my age, Catholic doesn't take all the pessage in the Bible too literaly (especially in the Old Testament), thus contrary to your believe. However, some pessages such as John 6:54-57, 1 Corinthians 11:26, Acts 2:42-43, John 6:48-50 are fundamental teaching in Catholic pertaining to the Eucharist and inteded to be taken literally.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/pbcinter.htm

I live in Eastern Europe where Eastern Orthodox Christianity is the most prevalent faith instead of Catholicism or Protestantism

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Agree, sir. But aboriginal people like myself wouldn't have know Yeshua if Catholic never come around here. So, I'm just thanking to them (Catholic). This person in my avatar was an Eastern Europeans Emperor btw, I'm a big fan of him, a peasant who rose to power.

SunConjunctUranus said:

Agree, sir. But aboriginal people like myself wouldn't have know Yeshua if Catholic never come around here. So, I'm just thanking to them (Catholic). This person in my avatar was an Eastern Europeans Emperor btw, I'm a big fan of him, a peasant who rose to power.

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Are you an Indonesian Catholic? Have you faced discrimination or persecution in Indonesia? There are more Protestants than Catholics in Indonesia according to the Internet.

''And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.'' - Matthew 24:14 NIV

petosiris said:

Are you an Indonesian Catholic? Have you faced discrimination or persecution in Indonesia? There are more Protestants than Catholics in Indonesia according to the Internet.

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I understand deeply your hatred toward Catholicsm and I agree that Pope is just politician, shouldn't have obey anything to him.

I accept that I come from certain retarded tribe down here in Eastern Indonesia before the 4th Crusader happened. My ancestors usually defended themself to avoid slavery from other tribes (all of them are Sultane up north from our island) and then being sold to other Kingdoms far out in the west in Batavia (capital). But everything is changes when Portuguese, Polish, and France monk came here in the East (came through Philipine). They taught us how to read, math, effective sanitation, open school for kids, etc. So that's why we owe a lot to their contributions.

Then after Crusaders end, Dutch people came along and they were forcing people in the Western Indonesia (Sultanate Kingdoms) to adopt Christian/Protestanism. Hell, even the Dutch give them civil law privilige among indigeous people who convert to Christianity.

Every Indonesian almost automaticaly identifying our tribe as a Catholic, thus being persecuted by Muslims and other Christian denominations. We share the persecution with Hinduism (but Hinduism is never come to my island, there is no oral story of the existance of Hinduism in Eastern Indonesia).

Protestanism are claiming to be an Orthodox Chruch down here but ironically never doing Cross sign (although Eastern Orthodox end the sign at left), recognize Mary nor use Deuterocanonical Bible as Catholic and Orthodox share the same principle. That's why I openly disagree with them. Yes, Protestanism is upper hand in numbers than Catholics but still 8 out of 10 people are Muslims down here. Thankfully, now I live in predominantly moderate Muslim's area.

I understand deeply your hatred toward Catholicsm and I agree that Pope is just politician, shouldn't have obey anything to him.

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Just for the record, I don't have hatred for Catholicism or politicians (we should love and pray even for those who persecute us). I am saying that the so-called δουλεία is truly λατρεία. For even if an angel comes from heaven and commands me to bow before him and kiss him and pray to him (or to his icon) in the so-called reverential manner, I would not. Our God is a jealous God, he does not admit equals or partners. And we only have one mediator between us and him - the son of man Christ, which is why I criticized the mediatrix doctrine in the OP.

I accept that I come from certain retarded tribe down here in Eastern Indonesia before the 4th Crusader happened.

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We are all descendants of the people aboard the Ark. Indigenous and barbarous tribes worshipped the creation instead of the creator, and were punished for their sexual immorality and murder for millenia.

They taught us how to read, math, effective sanitation, open school for kids, etc. So that's why we owe a lot to their contributions.

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However, God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but is pleased when they turn from their ways to righteousness and live. Do not forget that his power is made perfect in weakness. He chose the foolish things to shame the wise, and the weak things to shame the strong. No one is tempted more than he or she can bear.

All nations and tribes of the earth will be blessed in Christ, the seed of Abraham.

Protestanism are claiming to be an Orthodox Chruch down here but ironically never doing Cross sign (although Eastern Orthodox end the sign at left), recognize Mary nor use Deuterocanonical Bible as Catholic and Orthodox share the same principle. That's why I openly disagree with them.

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Do not wrest things that are of no use. Keep yourself from crime and gambling. Find a congregation of believers in Christ.

Love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, abstain from idolatry, adultery, blood and things strangled, love your neighbor as yourself, and you will have everlasting life. Call upon the Lord in prayer in the name of the Son. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

These are great questions, Passiflora.

With no disrespect intended towards anyone present, the problem that I have is that so few Christians-- even those who take the Bible literally-- practice the main tenants put forth by Jesus.

Jesus placed huge stress on looking after the poor, the sick, and the vulnerable members of society. He said that if someone owned two tunics (today's coats) he should give one away to the poor. Visiting people in prison was tantamount to visiting Jesus himself in jail. The reformed Judaism was supposed to be a religion of love. Jesus said to love your enemies, not only your friends.

This is what makes non-Christians like me wonder what many self-proclaimed Christians really think they're doing. They insist on points of doctrine that are highly sectarian and therefore debated by other denominations. In the United States, the evangelical right supports a president who is not a Christian, who lies repeatedly, who boasted about sexually assaulting women, and who cheated his contractors and lenders.

I could go on in this fashion. I am not trying to dump on anyone's religion here, but simply to point out some of the reasons why non-Christians see a big-disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and points of church doctrine.

I don't think Christians argue that the OT (Jewish Bible) was wrong for its era, as the word of God; merely that it has been replaced by a newer testament. Strangely enough, the New Testament says almost nothing against homosexuality and a whole lot of loving kindness, yet we see many American Protestants condemning gay people and virtually anyone who disagrees with their doctrines. Pedophilia and its cover-ups are still coming to light in the Catholic clergy.

To Jews, Jesus did not die for the world's sins. In Judaism, each individual continues to be responsible for his/her moral conduct. To Jews, Jesus did not usher in a new spiritual era (other than inadvertently founding a powerful new religion,) because the world continued with its same old wars and continuing instances of "man's inhumanity to man" (and woman.)

Thankfully I have been privileged to know some wonderful Christians who do (or did, one now deceased) try to put the teachings of Jesus into practice.

As someone who reads charts as an amateur astrologer, I try to be helpful to people. Oftentimes they are "the poor in spirit." I note that for centuries western astrology was taught in Catholic universities as part of the curriculum.

The name of God is blasphemed because of us. It is also written ''It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in humans''. Whoever does not trust in the Lord because of the example of sinful humans (of whom I am foremost) will not be exempt from judgement. You are not making a good argument for not accepting Christ, the reasons are more deep.