Utah Miners

20questions said:

Yes, what you just said is my take on it as well and I'm sorry if I came off otherwise. I am actually not interested in my own 'emotional response' to all this at all and that was not my purpose for posting this horary Ugh, I really don't care to make this a discussion about my 'emotional involvement' in the fate of these people. Instead, I sent out this horary asking 'what happened to those miners' and my initial reaction was to take the horary chart as an objective answer to that question. But "Ra... " (sorry 'ra', I don't have your full name on hand!) raised some good points about my own subjetive emotions affecting the chart. I think it's really legitimate. I would like to think that this is a chart objectivively answering the question I asked of it. But "Ra" gave some good points leaning to the side that the chart was in fact just reflecting my own subjective feelings. In that case, there's really nothing objective being answered about the miners' status at all in this chart. I personally think there is something to be gleaned of their fate but I think it's tricky. I want to differentiate the subjuctive from the objective.

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it's rayA

oh but not at all!
don't feel like your question hasn't been answered.. really, even though I used you in the chart, even still, your personal involvement was hardly mentioned and was very minimal, I did mention you in my explanation but it was mostly about the miners, I was only making observations of the querent, you.

Just because I used you in the chart doesn't mean the chart is therefore subjective and displaying your feelings only, it really isn't. I did not interpret just from your point of view.

When I used you your feelings were conveyed but the main focus of the chart is on the the event, even still.. it *still* is objective.

I really wanted to give you the kind of answer you were looking for, in the objective way and I did for the most part. I think me and AG gaggling about interpretations technicalities distracted the focus of the thread, unfortunately. Anyway, there's always going to be some level of subjectivity, after all, we *are* on the other side of things.


rayA

'gaggling'?!

In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG

archergirl said:

'gaggling'?!

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In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG

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I concur. Well we need old farts to preserve the old ways.

archergirl said:

'gaggling'?!

In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG

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Ahem! I'm sorry but I don't accept your interpretation of my horary question! It's no big deal and I have appreciated your commentary but I did not ask this horary or post it as a frivilous question. I am very discriminating in what questions I ask of horary and this was a question that meant something to me. The chart seemed very significant in terms of its layout which is why I posted it to this forum. No more, no less. Your commentary was great and I appreciated it. Best luck to you in the future and maybe I will come in contact with you elsewhere.

20questions said:

Ahem! I'm sorry but I don't accept your interpretation of my horary question! It's no big deal and I have appreciated your commentary but I did not ask this horary or post it as a frivilous question. I am very discriminating in what questions I ask of horary and this was a question that meant something to me. The chart seemed very significant in terms of its layout which is why I posted it to this forum. No more, no less. Your commentary was great and I appreciated it. Best luck to you in the future and maybe I will come in contact with you elsewhere.

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well that's the first!
some people.

Hello all! This "to and fro" is actually very good because we can find out peoples priorities, intentions, background feelings about the matter asked , interpretation methods etc. Writing in a forum is good for these sort of things. Everyone can have their say and opinion, BUT we are also here to learn from each other.
The question was maybe indeed seriously meant, but it was not an urgent personal question. Urgent personal questions, usually give the best answers from the chart. More general questions, no matter how serious one is about the situation (who is not in THIS situation which is horrendous indeed) tend to get less accurate or very generalised answers. These sort of questions are far better actually when one asks for a YES or NO answer, like: Will so and so become the next president? Or: Will Roger Federer win again in Wimbledon?
But if we ask: How will this president rule our country, or: what is the fate of Roger Federer when he looses Wimbledon?, then we get a less defined answer, usually. And more often than not we get too early or too late Ascendants and VOC or otherwise badly placed Moons. This is how I have seen it many times over.

Yes, don't take what I said the wrong way, 20questions. I never said this was a frivolous question; only that this question doesn't, if you look at it objectively, have a direct impact on your personal life. Hence my suggestion that these charts are best left to event astrology. There is also a problem with horaries for these questions as there will be a hundred other people out there also doing horaries, so whose chart is the right one, if any? If you do an event chart (and I think you can find data on the time of the explosion, btw) you may find the entire situation laid out before you in a most elegant manner, with a much clearer reading of it. Sometimes, horary really *isn't* the way to go, and that's something I guess you pick up as you study it.

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions.

Cheers,
AG

Obviously 20questions is not as interested in this event as they would seem since they wouldn't provide us the data.

The data for the event is:
August 5th, 2007
2:48am
Huntington, Utah, USA.

I always get confused when it comes to event charts. I have to debate with myself about what gets what house. I know whatever caused the event takes the Ascendant, so this would be whatever caused the mine to collapse and the Descendant would be the mine itself since it's what's being acted on...yes? Though, I do want to put the mine as the Fourth house, especially since this makes the cause and the mine the same thing, so perhaps this is just showing the mines collapse on itself. Also the Twelfth ruler is conjunct the IC line, the mine undid itself? Well that would make sense.

archergirl said:

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions.

Cheers,
AG

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15 years seems enough to be an expert to me.

Hello KnS!! Long time no seen. Hope you are not still moaning about your Solar Return! . I cannot help you with this one, I am not into event charts.(yet) Maybe AG knows the answers to this. I only know that mines belong to the 4th house and maybe yes, the event itself is the 1st. cheers, Star.

Hahaha. I'm good, Starlink. No, I'm okay with my SR, I'll deal with it one day at a time.

I do hope it is the First house for what caused the mine collapse. I know in Event charts the initiator of the event is the first and what is acted upon is the Seventh. So, that would make whatever caused the mine to collapse the First and the mine itself the Seventh, but a mine could also be the Fourth. Hm hm hm... I just wonder what the importance of Pluto on the Descendant is...

Hah, I am even less of an expert on event charts, but this one has some very interesting things going on. Note Pluto conjunct the DSC, and Venus (ruler of the 12th of 'hidden things' and the 5th of risks) right on the 4th cusp, the house of mines. KNS is on the right track with the 1st/4th representing the mine collapsing on itself, I think.

The miners themselves are possibly represented by the 6th house: laborers and 'servants': they were serving the mine. Mars, the 6th ruler, is in terrible condition. Either that, or because the miners were the victims, they would be given the 7th, with that Pluto right there.

I'm going to go off and study this chart awhile, then give my thruppence worth on it. I do wish Draco were around; he's ace at event charts!

Thanks for putting up the chart, KNS!

Best,
AG

Kaiousei,

I was discussing the mine disaster with a friend, who told me that 3 rescuers had been killed. (Something I didn't know - no tv.) He said he was wondering if they could still be alive, since it had only been a week or so. I quickly replied that a post on the astrology forum I belonged to gave the date as August 5, so the chances of the miners being alive were slim to none. My friend went to check out the date on the internet. He came up with the time of occurrence as: August 6, 2007 @ 1:48am. (8:48 UTC)
This was from the following link:

http://seismo.berkeley.edu/~peggy/Utah20070806.htm

Not trying to be nit-picky, but a factual time is important for an event chart. Just wondering.....

Freedomlover

Oh no no, not at all Freedom I completely understand. I actually had to guess some on this chart and I wasn't very happy with that. Give me a bit to try and find the articles I used. I'll edit them in when I find them.

Got the town here, it's titled Huntington.

Ho ho, it seems you are correct and I have the wrong day.

Yahoo News! said:

At Crandall Canyon, there has been little evidence that the six miners survived the initial Aug. 6 collapse.

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I really had to guess the day, I found an article that said '11 days ago' and it was dated the 16th, So, 11-16=5, I don't know what's up with that though, I guess reporters can't count days or the story ran early.

As for the time, I found another site that said 2:48.

Mine Collapse: A Chronology said:

2:48 a.m.: Crandall Canyon mine collapse traps six miners.

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I'm sorry everyone, it seems I got the right place and time, but wrong day.

This is the correct chart:


Okay, luckily very little has changed. The one thing I do think to be much more interesting is Luna's change. Luna's next aspect is a Square to Saturn, lord of the Eighth, she then conjuncts Mars and will transfer the light of Saturn to him. Mars is the lord of the Sixth (which Archergirl took to be the miners) and the Eleventh house (which I think is the rescuers since the Eleventh deals with friends and benefactors). I think this signifies the deaths of both the miners and the rescuers as the outcome as this martian conjunction is Luna's last aspect in the Sign of Taurus.

Mercury has become further Combust, making the cause more difficult to see.

I'm sorry about the misleading chart everyone, this is really quite an embarassing moment for me. Hopefully my interpretations will help me regain my honor.

Kaiousei,

Thanks for being so cool! It's all for the sake of accuracy, eh?

A question, though.... the time was UTC... is that the same as Greenwich?

And, if so, Mountain time, which Utah is on, is 7 hours behind Greenwich according to my calculations. So, do you think the 2:48am (6 hours behind) that you found is because of Daylight Savings Time? I couldn't figure it out at first, then the DST idea occurred to me.... Just curious....... I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you....

Freedomlover

Yep, all for accuracy. I'm glad you caught me.

I think it is the same, I don't really know what's up with it. MST is seven hours behind, the six hours behind would make it in my time zone, but I don't know why the Salt Lake Tribune would be using CDT times in their chronology.

Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.>

Now...if you'll excuse me...Who Wants to be a Superhero is on!!!

Kaiousei,

Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.>

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I think we have our answer......

I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you....

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I can't believe I didn't notice it was an AstroDienst chart! They would have taken DST into account. So.... the 2:48 would be accurate, I would think.

But as to accuracy.... like you said, nothing changed a whole lot. It might be important for timing, though? But, of course, the more exact the time, the better the chart.. so.... we make a good team, Kaiousei!

Freedomlover

archergirl said:

Yes, don't take what I said the wrong way, 20questions. I never said this was a frivolous question; only that this question doesn't, if you look at it objectively, have a direct impact on your personal life. Hence my suggestion that these charts are best left to event astrology. There is also a problem with horaries for these questions as there will be a hundred other people out there also doing horaries, so whose chart is the right one, if any? If you do an event chart (and I think you can find data on the time of the explosion, btw) you may find the entire situation laid out before you in a most elegant manner, with a much clearer reading of it. Sometimes, horary really *isn't* the way to go, and that's something I guess you pick up as you study it.

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions.

Cheers,
AG

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Yep, that's a really decent explanation and I am listening. I'll still probably look into this chart for potential answers just because the things going on within the chart are all so focussed. I am really not very schooled in horary per se but when a chart is so crystallized, I figure it has something to tell. So, it will be interesting trying to figure out the chart's message. Really appreciate everyone's commentary so far. Raya, I thought your interpretation was super great and it was really thought provoking in terrms of where to go next


Ps: "Aug 6th 2007, 2:46 am, Huntingtin Utah" are my details for the event chart.

Void of Course

the moon is void of course in this chart right ?

well I found it interesting that it was, as I was reading a definition on the site for void of course, an atrology wiki:

a void of course indicates that there will be no changes in the current situation.

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makes one wonder about the fate of the miners, especially with the via combusta too.

Re: Void of Course

If you're talking about the event chart, Luna still has to Square Saturn and Conjoin with Mars...