E
eternalautumn
me said:
If anyone would like to continue the exchange on free will, moral choice, etc., please feel free to do it here.
If anyone would like to continue the exchange on free will, moral choice, etc., please feel free to do it here.
Mark
Well-known member
Now you're speaking my language. We can approach free will from several perspectives. In the philosophical, free will is the ability to effect change. The philosophical perspective is concerned with reasoning about the world we experience. Many things seem to be outside of our reach, but there are some things which can provably be changed by decisions. The philosophical persuasion would appreciate the car crash example from the other thread.
The spiritual perspective is concerned with the nature of free will in an ontological sort of way. By this perspective, every will is an extension of the One Will in the same way that every soul is an extension of the One Soul. The most basic of all spiritual precepts is: All are One. This is an uncomfortable perspective for many because it entails tremendous responsibility. Essentially, the application of the One Will (the Will of God) in your life is partially dependent upon your will. This is what Jesus inferred when he asked, "Know ye not that ye are gods?" Free will is a gift of God that is enabled by our inability to directly perceive Truth. This perspective is so uncomfortable for many because it means that you earned/created in some way all that has happened to you. Karma is the system by which "corrections" are applied to individuals when their will causes disharmony with the One Will. Reincarnation is the system by which karma is applied cyclically. When you are able to see all of the pieces at once, they really do all fit together in a sensible way.
I'm regrettably hurrying through this for time's sake, but I'm usually too long-winded for most to enjoy anyway. I think two or three of the right people could make this a great thread.
Mark said:
The spiritual perspective is concerned with the nature of free will in an ontological sort of way. By this perspective, every will is an extension of the One Will in the same way that every soul is an extension of the One Soul. The most basic of all spiritual precepts is: All are One. This is an uncomfortable perspective for many because it entails tremendous responsibility. Essentially, the application of the One Will (the Will of God) in your life is partially dependent upon your will. This is what Jesus inferred when he asked, "Know ye not that ye are gods?" Free will is a gift of God that is enabled by our inability to directly perceive Truth. This perspective is so uncomfortable for many because it means that you earned/created in some way all that has happened to you. Karma is the system by which "corrections" are applied to individuals when their will causes disharmony with the One Will. Reincarnation is the system by which karma is applied cyclically. When you are able to see all of the pieces at once, they really do all fit together in a sensible way.
I'm regrettably hurrying through this for time's sake, but I'm usually too long-winded for most to enjoy anyway. I think two or three of the right people could make this a great thread.
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eternalautumn
Okay. I haven't really taken the break (to study the subject) that I said I would, but I can't resist saying something.
[I apologize in advance if I irritate you.
]
In reference to your car accident example... I'm looking at it in two different ways...
1) The car accident happening is the direct "fate" if steps are not taken to avert it before the point of no return.
What about this way?
2) The car accident not happening is the direct "fate" if steps are not taken to ensure it before the point of no return.
Does that make sense?
In any case, if that is how things work, nothing can be fated until it is imminent, right? And in a situation with only two options, either of them can be the fate, only we can't know which one until it happens.
Now, suppose I am 100 feet away from an oncoming driver, and since an accident is imminent if I continue on my course, I do everything I can to avoid the situation. But what if it's not enough? What if I can't remove myself completely from the course of the other car, and they do not change course? Is the accident fated for me, even if I did everything I could to avoid it? Is it fated for them? Both of us? Who's fate is stronger?
Going farther with this, does driving on an expressway, or going through an intersection, mean we are constantly avoiding fate, since it's very easy to get into an accident in those situations, especially when many drivers are involved?
This conversation reminds me of the "Final Destination" movies.
Now, spiritual free will...
If all wills are part of the One Will, how can anything be against the One Will? Wouldn't this entail that the One Will was wrong? If I have free will, doesn't this mean that the One Will is free?
I hope I made sense...
Also, I don't believe in reincarnation or karma. For now.
[I apologize in advance if I irritate you.
]In reference to your car accident example... I'm looking at it in two different ways...
1) The car accident happening is the direct "fate" if steps are not taken to avert it before the point of no return.
What about this way?
2) The car accident not happening is the direct "fate" if steps are not taken to ensure it before the point of no return.
Does that make sense?
In any case, if that is how things work, nothing can be fated until it is imminent, right? And in a situation with only two options, either of them can be the fate, only we can't know which one until it happens.
Now, suppose I am 100 feet away from an oncoming driver, and since an accident is imminent if I continue on my course, I do everything I can to avoid the situation. But what if it's not enough? What if I can't remove myself completely from the course of the other car, and they do not change course? Is the accident fated for me, even if I did everything I could to avoid it? Is it fated for them? Both of us? Who's fate is stronger?
Going farther with this, does driving on an expressway, or going through an intersection, mean we are constantly avoiding fate, since it's very easy to get into an accident in those situations, especially when many drivers are involved?
This conversation reminds me of the "Final Destination" movies.
Now, spiritual free will...
If all wills are part of the One Will, how can anything be against the One Will? Wouldn't this entail that the One Will was wrong? If I have free will, doesn't this mean that the One Will is free?
I hope I made sense...
Also, I don't believe in reincarnation or karma. For now.
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eternalautumn
I stumbled upon this article while studying horary, and it is relevant to the discussion: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/roots.html
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eternalautumn
Did I completely kill that analogy? 
I make sense to myself...
I make sense to myself...
Neptune Rising
Well-known member
Lovely description Mark.
I am of the idea that free will then is the option or choice between our indiviual ego and the mass ego... or between our own ego vs the will of nature. When we choose to folow our own desire, we might come across obstacles and problems along the way.
This then leads me to ask, what about people who commit horrendous crimes? On the surface, that appears that they are following their own ego which may well be the case. But when you ask them why they did what they did (ie, murder, rape ect), they have their own 'rational' reason for doing it. But considering this, it still seems to me that those people would be following their own ego desires, as opposed to the universal will.
I also think, if we are intouch with ourselves, then we are more likely to find the link to the universal will which is actually part of us anyway. In these times, I think we are quite detached from ourselves so might be less likely to be able to make choices in line with the universal will. For me, yoga and meditation help me tune into and re-centre myself which helps me tune into the intuition that is actually part of the universal consciousness.
NR
NR
I am of the idea that free will then is the option or choice between our indiviual ego and the mass ego... or between our own ego vs the will of nature. When we choose to folow our own desire, we might come across obstacles and problems along the way.
This then leads me to ask, what about people who commit horrendous crimes? On the surface, that appears that they are following their own ego which may well be the case. But when you ask them why they did what they did (ie, murder, rape ect), they have their own 'rational' reason for doing it. But considering this, it still seems to me that those people would be following their own ego desires, as opposed to the universal will.
I also think, if we are intouch with ourselves, then we are more likely to find the link to the universal will which is actually part of us anyway. In these times, I think we are quite detached from ourselves so might be less likely to be able to make choices in line with the universal will. For me, yoga and meditation help me tune into and re-centre myself which helps me tune into the intuition that is actually part of the universal consciousness.
NR
NR
Mark
Well-known member
While we have, to some extent, defined free will, we still need a definition for "fate." Fate is the state of existence in which there is only one path available. The punch of the car crash example is the fact that fate doesn't exist before the point of no return. Before the threshold is reached, fate can only be said to exist in the form of latent possibilities with no manifestation. After the threshold is passed, there are no more possibilities, so the path of manifestation is set. It makes little sense to talk about things already manifest as being "fated," so we could say that fate, by definition, is the one possibility that exists between the point of no return and the manifestation of that possibility.
So, to simplify, before the point of no return is reached, there are only possibilities. Between the point of no return and manifestation, the last standing possibility is the one that is "fated." After manifestation, there are only facts. To be clear in our meanings, the latent possibility that will be made manifest if no changes are made to the system can be called the "default possibility." The default possibility is not fated until it becomes the only possibility. At that time, there is literally no other choice.
We should be careful with words like "imminent," because they are scale-dependent. The collision between two cars can be imminent for seconds. The collision between two galaxies can be imminent for millions of years. Things that are bigger move slower (from our perspective), but with proportional speed and momentum.
Does driving through different circumstances mean that we are constantly avoiding fate? Yes and no. Spend a few years studying the human body and try to count all of the things that can go wrong with it. The human body is full of ridiculous complexity and integrated systems of all types. It takes several years just to learn to properly coordinate the hundreds of muscles involved in walking. These bodies can "break" in millions, if not billions, of ways, yet most people only ever experience a few of them. The human body is more complex than the space shuttle and all of its launching systems put together. Isn't it surprising that our bodies work as well as they do, especially considering the abuse we bring upon them? The same could be said for car traffic in major cities. It seems surprising to me that there isn't much more stuff going wrong all the time.
In regards to the One Will, we must remember that each will is an extension of the One Will. The Will is always concerned with the best possible choice overall. If you choose a different direction than the Will has chosen is the best one, then you will be in disagreement with the Will. The Will is still Itself, even when you disagree with It. There are billions of other wills that are also extensions of the One Will and the One Will would still be Itself even if all those wills disagreed with It. That's why consensus reality doesn't work. The One Will, the Universal Will, is based on Truth, the existence of the Universe and all in It. If everyone in the world all agreed on something that is wrong, then the entire world would be wrong. What is wrong doesn't become right through agreement. There is One Truth and it is that which we are trying to describe.
So, to simplify, before the point of no return is reached, there are only possibilities. Between the point of no return and manifestation, the last standing possibility is the one that is "fated." After manifestation, there are only facts. To be clear in our meanings, the latent possibility that will be made manifest if no changes are made to the system can be called the "default possibility." The default possibility is not fated until it becomes the only possibility. At that time, there is literally no other choice.
We should be careful with words like "imminent," because they are scale-dependent. The collision between two cars can be imminent for seconds. The collision between two galaxies can be imminent for millions of years. Things that are bigger move slower (from our perspective), but with proportional speed and momentum.
Does driving through different circumstances mean that we are constantly avoiding fate? Yes and no. Spend a few years studying the human body and try to count all of the things that can go wrong with it. The human body is full of ridiculous complexity and integrated systems of all types. It takes several years just to learn to properly coordinate the hundreds of muscles involved in walking. These bodies can "break" in millions, if not billions, of ways, yet most people only ever experience a few of them. The human body is more complex than the space shuttle and all of its launching systems put together. Isn't it surprising that our bodies work as well as they do, especially considering the abuse we bring upon them? The same could be said for car traffic in major cities. It seems surprising to me that there isn't much more stuff going wrong all the time.
In regards to the One Will, we must remember that each will is an extension of the One Will. The Will is always concerned with the best possible choice overall. If you choose a different direction than the Will has chosen is the best one, then you will be in disagreement with the Will. The Will is still Itself, even when you disagree with It. There are billions of other wills that are also extensions of the One Will and the One Will would still be Itself even if all those wills disagreed with It. That's why consensus reality doesn't work. The One Will, the Universal Will, is based on Truth, the existence of the Universe and all in It. If everyone in the world all agreed on something that is wrong, then the entire world would be wrong. What is wrong doesn't become right through agreement. There is One Truth and it is that which we are trying to describe.
