Mutual Reception Valid?

J

juicey J.

Banned
wintersprite1 said:
Remember all,

It is okay to disagree but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

TK
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Yes but we should be free to be honest to another poster about how a poster makes us feel, so long as we don't use cuss words, slander, threats, or name calling and i never used any of such in my post even before you edited it, all you did was tone it down a bit. Okay maybe i went a bit overboard but that was an honest expression of how i felt.
 
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wintersprite1

wintersprite1

Premium Member
Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.
 
J

juicey J.

Banned
wintersprite1 said:
Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.
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Problem is i took senshi's last post towards me personally and i found its tone to be judgmental and accusing and it hurt my feelings rather or not it was meant this way isn't the point, the point is this is how it made me feel, let me make it clear im not trying to out him or accuse him. And i feel like almost everyone including you is picking on me although i do agree my post went a bit overboard before you edited it.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
Saturn in Aries, Venus in Capricorn, Mars in Libra. Two of the planets are debilitated. However, if you switch them between the signs trying to give them the same dignity or debility (there is mutual reception by debility, although it is not commonly mentioned, from what I understand)
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Of the three planets chosen by the OP, Mars in Libra is debilitated by being in detriment, while Saturn is debilitated by being in Fall in Aries and
Venus in Capricorn has only dignity by Triplicity and Face but would otherwise be Peregrine in a day chart if located beyond the first 6º of Capricorn

Mutual Reception - whether the planets concerned are in exaltation, domicile or detriment - remains Mutual Reception: meaning two planets in mutual reception are friendly towards each other.

HOWEVER

Focusing on two of the three particular examples chosen by the OP then:

Saturn in Aries is Peregrine unless located in the last 10º of Aries

Mars in Libra is also Peregrine unless located in the last 10º of Libra
And if or when both planets are in a Peregrine degree, then Mutual reception between those two planets is unlikely to be of much assistance to either :smile:
 
J

juicey J.

Banned
wintersprite1 said:
Just don't make it personal. Debates can get heated and that is expected, but it does no one good to point fingers, yell, or personally goad. It only causes everyone to dig into their own opinions deeper and more firmly... and its not allowed by forum rules.

I can see the dilemma here on this thread. Most of the Traditional Forum uses direct links to verify information. You mention we have to extrapolate out sometime what is not said, and this is true.... but unless there is a direct link, it is still conjecture and can not be seen as an absolute truth. At this point, if the same back and forth keeps up with the same arguments, I will probably close the thread as there is no impasse and all that needs to be said has been. At some point we have to agree to disagree, because no minds are going to be changed.
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What do you mean your going to probably close the thread, just because things got a little heated (granted you can close a thread without cause or warning as you have said right but that's hardly the point) after in the same breath saying your open to debate here....... Doesn't senshi have the right to at least respond to what i last said?
 
J

juicey J.

Banned
Let me say this plainly Yes a plantary lord in debility can (key word) severely challenge the affairs of a house but all the planetary lords involved as well the planetary aspects to said planet must be looked at before making final judgement. I thought i made this clear from the get go when i brought this up but apparently some took what i said the wrong way, oh well......
 
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J

juicey J.

Banned
Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
...Two planets in opposition will not be in reception because they already have the same dignity and take the path of least resistance (astrology is all about paths of least resistance) and not receive anything. Of course, to be logical there will be some sort of reception, but it is not quite as strong
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As an example, although Gemini opposes Sagittarius, nevertheless if located at the relevant degrees, then Mercury and Jupiter could be in mutual reception by term and face therefore it is possible for planets in opposition to receive each other.
Rebel Uranian said:
...There is no mutual opposition. Or is this a legit idea at all? It might not be...
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On the contrary opposition is by definition mutual i.e. the two planets are opposing each other :smile:
 
Kaiousei no Senshi

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
JUPITERASC said:
And if or when both planets are in a Peregrine degree, then Mutual reception between those two planets is unlikely to be of much assistance to either
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The hang-ups over this idea is mostly going to come down to what individuals believe occurs during mutual reception. A popular (albeit modern) idea is that planets in mutual reception "exchange signs". Of course this would imply that a planet can be freed from its debility through a mutual reception, but that isn't quite what's going on. I also feel like many people consider mutual receptions as a sort of "general feel" for planets at any given time. This also isn't how they're supposed to be used. Only within the context of their relationship does mutual reception bring about anything satisfactory.

For example, the current Mars/Saturn Square. Typically, this is considered a very difficult aspect and if your horary or nativity has this configuration, it's going to be difficult for them to bring the matter to perfection. However, with the mutual reception, it makes it easier for those two planets to overcome the Square and achieve perfection of the matter. Of course, it's still two malefics and they're still Square, but hey! It's better than nothing!!

Juicy J. said:
Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.
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No, even that is mutual reception. Planet A and planet B are still receiving each other simultaneously (which is the definition of mutual reception), they just feel differently towards one another.
 
J

juicey J.

Banned
No, mixed reception is a two way reception not a mutual one you even said they don't feel the same way towards each other so in other words it isn't mutual.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
juicey J. said:
Also,to let everyone who reads said thread know, a mixed reception which, is planet A being in planet b's sign of domicile and planet b being being in planet A's sign of exaltation isn't a mutual reception.
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QUOTE:

“.....Mutual reception does not have to be by the same level of dignity. If one planet receives another by sign, and the second receives the first by exaltation, that too is mutual reception :smile:


Mutual reception only indicates that both planets are receiving each other at the same time, and we can see from the dignities involved the extent to which they are capable of offering benefit through reception.

To be received by sign or exaltation is much better than being received by term or face...” source: Deborah Houlding


FURTHERMORE

“....Where friendly aspects exist between the planets, mutual reception heightens the benefits that arise from active co-operation; it reveals a situation where there is an easy trade of status and the potential for each planet to acquire something positive from the other. Where unfriendly aspects are involved, being received helps to protect a planet against the damaging effect of the aspect so that it can still draw benefit from the aspect”.... source: Deborah Houlding
 
J

juicey J.

Banned
Well we agree a mixed reception is a two way reception rather or not we are willing to call it mutual is a matter of semantics. Im sure we agree a mixed reception isn't as mutual as one with the same dignity level.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
The hang-ups over this idea is mostly going to come down to what individuals believe occurs during mutual reception. A popular (albeit modern) idea is that planets in mutual reception "exchange signs". Of course this would imply that a planet can be freed from its debility through a mutual reception, but that isn't quite what's going on
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Just my opinion, "Exchanging Signs" is a concept that muddies the waters :smile:
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I also feel like many people consider mutual receptions as a sort of "general feel" for planets at any given time. This also isn't how they're supposed to be used. Only within the context of their relationship does mutual reception bring about anything satisfactory.

For example, the current Mars/Saturn Square. Typically, this is considered a very difficult aspect and if your horary or nativity has this configuration, it's going to be difficult for them to bring the matter to perfection. However, with the mutual reception, it makes it easier for those two planets to overcome the Square and achieve perfection of the matter. Of course, it's still two malefics and they're still Square, but hey! It's better than nothing!!

No, even that is mutual reception. Planet A and planet B are still receiving each other simultaneously (which is the definition of mutual reception), they just feel differently towards one another.
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Exactly
 
M

mihalerm

Member
Hi @ll
I am new to this thread and also new to Traditional astrology.
I found this thread fascinating and therefore will put my question forward.

R. Zoller in his Foundation Course, lesson 3, page 6/7, states

" The Sun is in detriment, but, while opposed to Saturn, it
is in mutual reception with Saturn. That is, they are in each
other's Signs. This was held by some Medieval Authorities to
be a great good thing. It was held to be similar to having the
two planets in dignity, working together. So, employing this
opinion, we can expect the Sun to be brilliant and powerful
and Saturn to be reserved, knowledgeable and indicating a
taste for ancient, arcane studies."
Note: Sun at 5deg Aqua and Saturn at 5deg Leo.

I have the same kind of configuration in my chart i.e. Sun at 2deg Libra in 1st House (Conj Asc at 29deg Virgo) and 2nd sign, in opposition to Saturn at 2deg Aries in 7th House and 8th Sign. Both Planets are in fall and in Mutual Reception by exaltation. Also both planet are squared by Mars at 26deg Sag in 4th House (and Sign).

Not considering Zoller´s statement (above) this configuration would lead by quadrant, to a terrible partner and problems and limitations in marriage. By Whole Houses it would indicate that I would have problems with debts.

As a matter of fact I had a quite normal wife and a reasonable, lasting marriage.
As to debts, I never had any problems. Was (and am till now, at least) always solvent, in other words, I have (and always had) an upper middle class stable financial situation. Note, I am over 70 years old, retired and no debts at all (not even mortgage - bought my apartment in cash)!!!

In my understanding, my life and chart ratify the above Zoller's statement.
Am I wrong?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
mihalerm said:
Hi @ll
I am new to this thread and also new to Traditional astrology.
I found this thread fascinating and therefore will put my question forward.

R. Zoller in his Foundation Course, lesson 3, page 6/7, states

" The Sun is in detriment, but, while opposed to Saturn, it
is in mutual reception with Saturn. That is, they are in each
other's Signs. This was held by some Medieval Authorities to
be a great good thing. It was held to be similar to having the
two planets in dignity, working together. So, employing this
opinion, we can expect the Sun to be brilliant and powerful
and Saturn to be reserved, knowledgeable and indicating a
taste for ancient, arcane studies."
Note: Sun at 5deg Aqua and Saturn at 5deg Leo.

I have the same kind of configuration in my chart i.e. Sun at 2deg Libra in 1st House (Conj Asc at 29deg Virgo) and 2nd sign, in opposition to Saturn at 2deg Aries in 7th House and 8th Sign. Both Planets are in fall and in Mutual Reception by exaltation. Also both planet are squared by Mars at 26deg Sag in 4th House (and Sign).

Not considering Zoller´s statement (above) this configuration would lead by quadrant, to a terrible partner and problems and limitations in marriage. By Whole Houses it would indicate that I would have problems with debts.

As a matter of fact I had a quite normal wife and a reasonable, lasting marriage.
As to debts, I never had any problems. Was (and am till now, at least) always solvent, in other words, I have (and always had) an upper middle class stable financial situation. Note, I am over 70 years old, retired and no debts at all (not even mortgage - bought my apartment in cash)!!!

In my understanding, my life and chart ratify the above Zoller's statement.
Am I wrong?
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Another consideration is that
the signs of mutual reception between Sun and Saturn vary

i.e.
Sun Aquarius in mutual reception with Saturn in Leo
is very different from
Sun in Libra in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries
because
Sun and Saturn are either
in each others domiciles
or
in each others exaltation

Zoller is world renowned in the world of medieval astrology
and clearly speaks with authority

what is interesting is
Libra is Venus domicile
and Aries is Mars domicile

so the additional factors to study in the particular natal chart
are the house and sign locations of Venus and Mars respectively
as well as any aspects to/from Venus and Mars
made by natal planets
and of course the Ascendant sign/angles generally :smile:
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
Mutual reception is very useful concept to know and it often identifies major issues in life that is highly beneficial or highly malefic and it does have variable behaviour when it comes to other combination with eclipse, transits, and progression overall mutual reception in my own understanding can Exacerbate/Escalate the condition of the two planets representing in your chart. But you must read the whole chart to conclude their manifestation and they are not always good or always bad they just happened to work together.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
poyi said:
Mutual reception is very useful concept to know and it often identifies major issues in life that is highly beneficial or highly malefic and it does have variable behaviour when it comes to other combination with eclipse, transits, and progression overall mutual reception in my own understanding can Exacerbate/Escalate the condition of the two planets representing in your chart. But you must read the whole chart to conclude their manifestation and they are not always good or always bad they just happened to work together.
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QUOTE


'….Reception obtains when a planet is in aspect by degree with its domicile or exalted lord....


Generally speaking, received benefics produce a stronger good, while received malefics impede less.


Reception takes away the evil from a situation.


So that a planet's signification will not suffer, even if it is in a bad place.


A received planet – or rather the person signified by it – will be able to bear its own problems more easily....' Benjamin Dykes Introduction to the works of Sahl and Masha'Allah :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
QUOTE



'…. reception is essentially about having a surrogate home –
a form of support independent of on one's own ownership and responsibilities :smile:


Unlike being in one's own domicile,
where one can rely on oneself,

received planets have others helping and esteeming them,

it is as though the received planet is vouched for.


This notion of a surrogate home explains

why received planets have joy and security,

can perfect reliably ( because they have support )

show a connection to home and returning home,

have honor instead of disgrace,

have allies,

involve truthful intentions ( as though they are trusted )

have peaceful relations with their receivers....'

source: Introduction to WORKS OF SAHL AND MASHA'ALLAH translated by Benjamin Dykes
 
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