Opal
Premium Member
Re: the ability to "act" denies that something is "fated", to Jupiter
It's making me type something here to submit reply......
It's making me type something here to submit reply......
Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology
- Thread starter lostinstars
- Start date
wilsontc
Staff member
yes, to Opal
Opal,
The first statement about "free will" was free will in the choice of CHOOSING a time to do something. As you say correctly, if we aren't AWARE of something we can't CHOOSE it. So we can't CHOOSE whether or not to have an accident, an accident happens because we were NOT aware of something. Yes, I would consider accidents "fated" because there is NO way to stop them, since stopping them would require us to be more aware of the world than we are. But what to do AFTER the accident is a CHOICE and there free will comes in.
Yes, most people are NOT aware of their patterns and tendencies so they tend to act in a "fated" way, going down the easiest paths, even if those paths don't help them grow and develop. That's where modern astrology comes in to help them grow and develop and make them aware of the "big picture".
Agreeing,
Tim
Opal,
The first statement about "free will" was free will in the choice of CHOOSING a time to do something. As you say correctly, if we aren't AWARE of something we can't CHOOSE it. So we can't CHOOSE whether or not to have an accident, an accident happens because we were NOT aware of something. Yes, I would consider accidents "fated" because there is NO way to stop them, since stopping them would require us to be more aware of the world than we are. But what to do AFTER the accident is a CHOICE and there free will comes in.
Yes, most people are NOT aware of their patterns and tendencies so they tend to act in a "fated" way, going down the easiest paths, even if those paths don't help them grow and develop. That's where modern astrology comes in to help them grow and develop and make them aware of the "big picture".
Agreeing,
Tim
AtlanticPacific
Well-known member
Agree with what Opal just wrote. Events are fated, how we respond/react is our free will. I think the major game changers in our lives (significant others, jobs, children, illness etc.) are not something we can "control" or bring about with free will (i.e. you can give the best interview of your life but you may not get the job), but how we conduct ourselves in those circumstances is. And certainly you can go down the rabbit hole of making the argument that you use free will to position yourself - i.e. you apply for a certain job or you start online dating in order to meet someone, but I'm mostly focusing on outcomes here to simplify the point because even the timing of opportunities entering our lives I believe is really not in our control.
And so this brings me back to astrology, in reference to which I agree with what Greybeard wrote previously in this thread:
"If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate."
Does this make me a traditionalist?
And so this brings me back to astrology, in reference to which I agree with what Greybeard wrote previously in this thread:
"If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate."
Does this make me a traditionalist?
Last edited:
lostinstars
Well-known member
Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter
Traditional astrologers are expensive not because it is complex but it is not accessible so easily, people have to struggle to get an understanding and become good at it to even consider doing readings. Modern astrologers just need to read few books and can start doing readings. I didn't see any proponent of modern astrologers here answering my question on the need for natal chart when the focus is on transformation of psyche, transformation of consciousness, learning from experiences etc.
Event Robert Hand gives importance to psychology and consciousness though he is a great historian and instrumental in explaining medieval concepts. It is not surprising considering he became famous for his early modern astrology books, I wonder if he started with traditional astrology instead of modern would he still stay the same things?
Traditional astrologers are expensive not because it is complex but it is not accessible so easily, people have to struggle to get an understanding and become good at it to even consider doing readings. Modern astrologers just need to read few books and can start doing readings. I didn't see any proponent of modern astrologers here answering my question on the need for natal chart when the focus is on transformation of psyche, transformation of consciousness, learning from experiences etc.
Event Robert Hand gives importance to psychology and consciousness though he is a great historian and instrumental in explaining medieval concepts. It is not surprising considering he became famous for his early modern astrology books, I wonder if he started with traditional astrology instead of modern would he still stay the same things?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
modernist astrologers frequently disagreeAgree with what Opal just wrote. Events are fated, how we respond/react is our free will. I think the major game changers in our lives (significant others, jobs, children, illness etc.) are not something we can "control" or bring about with free will (i.e. you can give the best interview of your life but you may not get the job), but how we conduct ourselves in those circumstances is. And certainly you can go down the rabbit hole of making the argument that you use free will to position yourself - i.e. you apply for a certain job or you start online dating in order to meet someone, but I'm mostly focusing on outcomes here to simplify the point because even the timing of opportunities entering our lives I believe is really not in our control.
And so this brings me back to astrology, in reference to which I agree with what Greybeard wrote previously in this thread:
"If there exists ANY significant free will, astrology, no matter whether traditional or modern, cannot work; the exercise of free will would disrupt the flow of fate."
Does this make me a traditionalist?
so
that's dependent on whether any modernist astrologers think "all is fated"
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter
without reading any books at all
and its legal
simply because western modernist astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"
so there is no necessity to have even read/studied longer than five minutes
the theory for our forum is
that beginners learn by receiving feedback on their chart interpretation
however
most "Read My Chart" posters just want a reading
and mostly do not provide feedback
which is understandable because all comments on our forum
are public and easily accessed on google et al
members often request private readings by pm
I've had multiple requests
but my response is
any comment I make is public - so then more people benefit
from the information offered
also if one spends all ones time answering pms with private readings
then there's no time to comment on the open forum
also there are "cookbook interpretations" from astrological software
which some print out and mail to clients
after buying the inexpensive right to do so from the software writer
these computer printouts provide identical "readings"
to anyone born the same day
and are another reason many consider "astrology" fairground entertainment
with Chris Brennan
Robert Hand said as follows:
'......I always have been interested in traditional astrology
but the material wasn’t available
Not even Lilly.
Then in the ‘80s Robert Zoller talked for a little group at early meetings
of New York chapter of NCGR.
I was struck that he would actually learn Latin
in order to read the stuff in the original.
I won’t say I ever really did conventional modern astrology.
I was more into cosmobiology Ebertin’s School
which interestingly enough is rather like traditional astrology...'
Robert Hand also says that “Planets In Transit”
was written as a text for a computer program in the 70's
which in somewhat modified form
is now available for Astrodienst aka astro.com.
'.....I have to say that some of the delineations have been modified beyond recognition but it is basically my work.....'Robert Hand
'....I also have to say that the psychological interpretation
was required partly by the fact these were computer program databases
and external events require taking off a lot of other things into consideration
besides the transit itself.
If you are just going to be talking about the transit
then you really are primarily stuck with the personality
or psychologically oriented interpretation....' Robert Hand
the podcast is at http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/12/09/robert-hand-reconciling-modern-traditional-astrology/
in fact on our forum, complete beginners may immediately interpret charts
without reading any books at all
and its legal
simply because western modernist astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"
so there is no necessity to have even read/studied longer than five minutes
the theory for our forum is
that beginners learn by receiving feedback on their chart interpretation
however
most "Read My Chart" posters just want a reading
and mostly do not provide feedback
which is understandable because all comments on our forum
are public and easily accessed on google et al
members often request private readings by pm
I've had multiple requests
but my response is
any comment I make is public - so then more people benefit
from the information offered
also if one spends all ones time answering pms with private readings
then there's no time to comment on the open forum
also there are "cookbook interpretations" from astrological software
which some print out and mail to clients
after buying the inexpensive right to do so from the software writer
these computer printouts provide identical "readings"
to anyone born the same day
and are another reason many consider "astrology" fairground entertainment
During an episode of THE ASTROLOGY PODCAST
with Chris Brennan
Robert Hand said as follows:
'......I always have been interested in traditional astrology
but the material wasn’t available
Not even Lilly.
Then in the ‘80s Robert Zoller talked for a little group at early meetings
of New York chapter of NCGR.
I was struck that he would actually learn Latin
in order to read the stuff in the original.
I won’t say I ever really did conventional modern astrology.
I was more into cosmobiology Ebertin’s School
which interestingly enough is rather like traditional astrology...'
Robert Hand also says that “Planets In Transit”
was written as a text for a computer program in the 70's
which in somewhat modified form
is now available for Astrodienst aka astro.com.
'.....I have to say that some of the delineations have been modified beyond recognition but it is basically my work.....'Robert Hand
'....I also have to say that the psychological interpretation
was required partly by the fact these were computer program databases
and external events require taking off a lot of other things into consideration
besides the transit itself.
If you are just going to be talking about the transit
then you really are primarily stuck with the personality
or psychologically oriented interpretation....' Robert Hand
the podcast is at http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/12/09/robert-hand-reconciling-modern-traditional-astrology/
wilsontc
Staff member
Traditional astrology and Modern astrology are both astrology, to Jupiter
Jupiter,
Modern astrology and Traditional astrology are both forms of astrology. Just as there are different kinds of cars you can buy, so there are different forms of astrology you can use. And just as cars all have in common that they have 4 wheels, a body, and a way to propel themselves, so astrologers all have in common that they use the planets or other objects in the sky and come to certain conclusions based on the positions of the stars. So Traditional astrology and Modern astrology have planets and planetary meanings in common because they are both forms of astrology. But Traditional astrology also has many terms that Modern astrology does not: terms, face, almuten, etc. And Modern astrology uses planets that Traditional astrology does not: Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. And some modern astrologers do things traditionalists don't do at all, such as using dials, ignoring the planetary houses, graphing the planets onto a map, etc. So they are both DIFFERENT types of astrology and neither one is "built on" the other.
This is because they have DIFFERENT purposes. The purpose of Traditional astrology is to understand what to do at the few times in your life when you get to choose what your fated path you will take. As you mentioned, election astrology is an example of that. Similarly, horary astrology. The purpose of Modern astrology is to give you the opportunity to make choices at ANY time in your life. Instead of waiting for the "right" moment, modern astrology gives you a look at what energies are going around you right now that you can USE to get to where you, deep down, really want to get to.
It's a difference between focusing on fate and focusing on choice.
About the different astrologies,
Tim
Jupiter,
Modern astrology and Traditional astrology are both forms of astrology. Just as there are different kinds of cars you can buy, so there are different forms of astrology you can use. And just as cars all have in common that they have 4 wheels, a body, and a way to propel themselves, so astrologers all have in common that they use the planets or other objects in the sky and come to certain conclusions based on the positions of the stars. So Traditional astrology and Modern astrology have planets and planetary meanings in common because they are both forms of astrology. But Traditional astrology also has many terms that Modern astrology does not: terms, face, almuten, etc. And Modern astrology uses planets that Traditional astrology does not: Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. And some modern astrologers do things traditionalists don't do at all, such as using dials, ignoring the planetary houses, graphing the planets onto a map, etc. So they are both DIFFERENT types of astrology and neither one is "built on" the other.
This is because they have DIFFERENT purposes. The purpose of Traditional astrology is to understand what to do at the few times in your life when you get to choose what your fated path you will take. As you mentioned, election astrology is an example of that. Similarly, horary astrology. The purpose of Modern astrology is to give you the opportunity to make choices at ANY time in your life. Instead of waiting for the "right" moment, modern astrology gives you a look at what energies are going around you right now that you can USE to get to where you, deep down, really want to get to.
It's a difference between focusing on fate and focusing on choice.
About the different astrologies,
Tim
Opal
Premium Member
https://www.amazon.ca/Fated-Sky-Astrology-History/dp/0743268954
Somewhere in the above book The Fated Sky: A History of Astrology
there is a telling of an astrologer from the past that one day saw that the stars were affecting his natal chart in such a way, that he was worried that his life was in danger of being crushed. So he took it upon himself to use the free choice to stay at home and avoid the fates, and he invited his friends to join him. They ate and refreshed, and discussed things, the discussion went to something that he tried to retrieve a book from his shelf. It teetered and fell on him, crushing him to death.
You do have free will and the freedom of choices. You do have fate and it cannot be changed.
I would be considered a modernist, as I use the outermost planets and the stars.
Somewhere in the above book The Fated Sky: A History of Astrology
there is a telling of an astrologer from the past that one day saw that the stars were affecting his natal chart in such a way, that he was worried that his life was in danger of being crushed. So he took it upon himself to use the free choice to stay at home and avoid the fates, and he invited his friends to join him. They ate and refreshed, and discussed things, the discussion went to something that he tried to retrieve a book from his shelf. It teetered and fell on him, crushing him to death.
You do have free will and the freedom of choices. You do have fate and it cannot be changed.
I would be considered a modernist, as I use the outermost planets and the stars.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: Traditional astrology and Modern astrology are both astrology, to Jupiter
both "traditional" and "modernist" are "forms of astrology"
"Traditional" is the original form of astrology
hence "traditional"
Traditional astrology is a form of astrology that pre-dates modernist astrology
both "traditional" and "modernist" are "forms of astrology"
"Traditional" is the original form of astrology
hence "traditional"
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
according to a normal dictionary definition
astrology = the ancient practice of studying the movements
and locations of celestial bodies
in the belief that they influence human behavior
astrologers base their opinions on charts illustrating celestial objects
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
traditional and modernist astrology have planets and planetary meanings in common
because traditional astrology predates modernist astrology
and modernist astrology chose to keep SOME
but NOT ALL
of the original traditional astrology planetary meanings
modernist astrology is a form of astrology that is based
on the original meanings of traditional astrology
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
that's because traditional astrology predates modernist astrology
and some, but not all modernist astrologers
chose to discard the use of terms, faces, almutens and so on
HOWEVER
many modernist astrologers who use the outers use terms, faces, almutens
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
traditional astrology historically predates modernist
and because many modernist astrologers do use traditional terminology
clearly, modernist is based on traditional
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Traditional astrology supports the client
with making informed choices
based on their lot in life
both modernist and traditional astrologers use electional/horary
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
tradtional astrology works WITH current celestial body placements
to indicate "optimum" moments to act
which are discussed with the client
traditional astrology finds "best option" moments
and has no "right moments"
and
the individual client has choice whether to act or not
astrology, whether Chinese, Vedic, modernist, sidereal, tropical et al
focuses on choices a client has
wilsontc
Staff member
definition of astrology, to Jupiter
Jupiter,
That's NOT the dictionary definition of astrology. Here is A dictionary definitiion of astrology:
Notice there is NO mention of "ancient". As long as you are studying the (apparent) movement of the stars and planets and how they relate to people, you are doing astrology. So you START with the stars and planets in doing astrology (just like you START with having four wheels when describing a car). After THAT you can go pretty much wherever you want. Some astrologers today are creating their OWN dignities, falls, and exaltations; some are only using planetary angles and ignore signs, planets, and houses; and others are using maps. This is ENTIRELY different from the Traditional method of looking at stars and planets. The ONLY thing they have in common is...stars and planets. After that, the sky's the limit!
Part of the reason that Traditional and Modern astrologers get in heated discussion is Traditionalists often refuse to recognize that, while Traditional and Modern astrology share ASTROLOGY, they are different TYPES of astrology used for different purposes. As has been stated, their different purposes have to do with the fate vs. free will balance.
About the two different types of astrology,
Tim
according to a normal dictionary definition
astrology = the ancient practice of studying the movements
and locations of celestial bodies
in the belief that they influence human behavior
astrologers base their opinions on charts illustrating celestial objects
Jupiter,
That's NOT the dictionary definition of astrology. Here is A dictionary definitiion of astrology:
Notice there is NO mention of "ancient". As long as you are studying the (apparent) movement of the stars and planets and how they relate to people, you are doing astrology. So you START with the stars and planets in doing astrology (just like you START with having four wheels when describing a car). After THAT you can go pretty much wherever you want. Some astrologers today are creating their OWN dignities, falls, and exaltations; some are only using planetary angles and ignore signs, planets, and houses; and others are using maps. This is ENTIRELY different from the Traditional method of looking at stars and planets. The ONLY thing they have in common is...stars and planets. After that, the sky's the limit!
Part of the reason that Traditional and Modern astrologers get in heated discussion is Traditionalists often refuse to recognize that, while Traditional and Modern astrology share ASTROLOGY, they are different TYPES of astrology used for different purposes. As has been stated, their different purposes have to do with the fate vs. free will balance.
About the two different types of astrology,
Tim
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: definition of astrology, to Jupiter
consulting Wikipedia
we find referrences to ancient origins of astrology
'......Among Indo-European peoples
astrology has been dated to the 3rd millennium BC,
interpreting celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.
Until 17th century astrology was a scholarly tradition
and it helped drive the development of astronomy.
Astrology was commonly accepted in political and cultural circles
and some of its concepts were used in other traditional studies,
such as alchemy, meteorology and medicine.
By the end of the 17th century astrology lost its academic standing
and became regarded as a pseudoscience.....'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology
There may be multiple dictionary definitions of astrology
consulting Wikipedia
we find referrences to ancient origins of astrology
'......Among Indo-European peoples
astrology has been dated to the 3rd millennium BC,
interpreting celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.
Until 17th century astrology was a scholarly tradition
and it helped drive the development of astronomy.
Astrology was commonly accepted in political and cultural circles
and some of its concepts were used in other traditional studies,
such as alchemy, meteorology and medicine.
By the end of the 17th century astrology lost its academic standing
and became regarded as a pseudoscience.....'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: definition of astrology, to Jupiter
as previously mentioned
traditional astrologers support clients to advise on
making choices based on the location of celestial bodies
apparently modernist astrologers do similarly
both modernist and traditional astrologers acknowledge the existence of fate
as previously mentioned
traditional astrologers support clients to advise on
making choices based on the location of celestial bodies
apparently modernist astrologers do similarly
Opal
Premium Member
After reading this from both of you, I guess my Libra Sun and Mercury are tingling with the thought of why do we have to be labeled? I use all material that is available to me for my astrological studies.......my free will doesn’t want to be limited........gnosis is from anywhere you receive it from