SunConjunctUranus
Well-known member
ds is the strongest person alive! 
Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology
- Thread starter lostinstars
- Start date
lostinstars
Well-known member
Dr. Erik Verlinde says, “For me gravity doesn’t exist.”
In a recent paper he expounded on his theory.
Erik Verlinde, 48, a respected string theorist and professor of physics at the University of Amsterdam,
contends that gravity is indeed an illusion
and has caused a continuing ruckus among physicists,
or at least among those who profess to understand it
Scientific community never accepts anything that shakes the foundations of modern science. Very few scientists are actually humble and say we have been doing it all wrong but most of them have too much ego to accept anything that destroys their reputation and guzzle tax payers' money.
Have you read any book by Immanuel Velikovsky?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I have read Immanuel VelikovskyScientific community never accepts anything that shakes the foundations of modern science. Very few scientists are actually humble and say we have been doing it all wrong but most of them have too much ego to accept anything that destroys their reputation and guzzle tax payers' money.
Have you read any book by Immanuel Velikovsky?
and for those who dislike reading
just one of the many Velikovsky videos on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHRjh1npkY
lostinstars
Well-known member
I have read Immanuel Velikovsky
and for those who dislike reading
just one of the many Velikovsky videos on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHRjh1npkY
I came across a book called Saturn Myth by David N Talbott who was influenced by Velikovsky when I was doing research on Saturn. I think he was on to something for the reason Saturn is mentioned as the final thing to be reached in several forms of magick repeatedly.
I'm yet to get my hands on the physical copies of those books
jac
Well-known member
If you mean allopathic western, YES.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
one has freewill to choose to benefit greatly
as a consequence of
reading, studying and vigilantly practicing traditional astrological techniques
or alternatively
one has freewill to not bother to even read traditional astrology
let alone practice
and instead carp at, constantly questioning the validity of its roots
- everyone has personal choice
and their own path
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wilsontc
Staff member
Get back to fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology
All,
Please get back to the subject fate vs. free will in traditional astrology vs. modern astrology. If you have finished with that topic, start a new thread. If you want to talk about non-astrological things, do so in the Chat Forum. I will continue to delete off-topic, non-astrological posts from this thread.
Back to astrology,
Tim
All,
Please get back to the subject fate vs. free will in traditional astrology vs. modern astrology. If you have finished with that topic, start a new thread. If you want to talk about non-astrological things, do so in the Chat Forum. I will continue to delete off-topic, non-astrological posts from this thread.
Back to astrology,
Tim
wilsontc
Staff member
how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?
Quoting lostinstars over several points:
As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.
Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.
Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works there is the idea of "free will": A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.
In all discussions of "fate" there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will" (whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality. The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life. The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).
Traditionalists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated and only very FEW things have to do with "free will". The DESTINATION is a constant, but the JOURNEY can vary. The astrologer's job is to simply point out the DESTINATION and leave it up to people to decide which JOURNEY they take to get there.
Modernists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated UNLESS THEY BECOME AWARE of themselves and their tendencies. Then the person can ADJUST themselves so their life better aligns with who they are inwardly. In this case, with the help of an astrologer or leaning astrology on their own, the JOURNEY is a constant, but how the person USES the journey can change the person's DESTINATION. Modern astrologers believe you are fated to have the chart you have, but if you are AWARE of that chart you can USE it to get to a place that best fits who YOU are.
Some modern astrologers get caught up in terminology and insist on calling modern astrology "psychological" as a way to distinguish it from traditional astrology (which emphasizes fate over free will). But this distinction can confuse people since the point is NOT about the "psychology" (which is a separate field) but about the CHOICE people make on what to DO with their chart. For this reason, the phrase "choice-centered astrology" has become more common to replace the confusing "psychological" astrology term.
However, since Modernists take the OPPOSITE approach to astrology than Traditionalists do there is a LOT of fighting between the two about how little or how much fate affects a person vs. how much or how little free will affects a person. The attraction of Traditional astrology is it gives certainty, since the goal is to predict the destination. The challenge of modern astrology is it gives UNcertainty since the destination depends on where the person decides to go and what they do to get there.
This suggests that fate is like inertia: do nothing to change your life and your destination is fated. The more KNOWLEDGE you have of your situation (through astrology or some other means) the more ability you have to use free will to affect the OUTCOME of your life.
Traditional astrology was most popular at a time when people's lives WERE fated because no one could do anything to change the outcome of their life: kings would stay kings and peasants would stay peasants. Kings were born into power and didn't want to give it to anyone not in their family and peasants were too busy trying to stay alive to be concerned with learning things. Later, when knowledge became easier to come by, astrology began to change its purpose, moving from telling people about their unchanging, fated life to telling people about the things they MIGHT do.
For people who like certainty in their lives, this new, changeable method of astrology is disturbing. Instead of supplying ONE answer for the person, choice-centered astrology can offer MANY answers and possibilities. The astrologer in modern astrology works MUCH closer with the client, since the role of the astrologer is to help the person explore these possibilities to see which answer best works for them. This choice-centered approach also turns the control of interpreting the chart from the astrologer over to the person who is constantly involved in the process to see which possibilities "work" for them.
For those who like certainty in their life, the "fated" approach of Traditional astrology will likely be more attractive. For those who are open to possibilities and want to explore them "free will"/"choice-centered" Modern astrology will tend to be more appealing.
About the differences,
Tim
Quoting lostinstars over several points:
As has been mentioned before on this thread, it's important to first define your terms before engaging in discussion.
Normal definition of fate in terms of a person's life: Incidents in the person's life are pre-determined and will play out exactly as planned. The person can in no way deviate from them in any way.
Since it is clear that this is NOT the way the world works there is the idea of "free will": A person has a choice in what they do in their own life.
In all discussions of "fate" there must be at least SOME acknowledgement of "free will" (whether or not it is mentioned) in order for the discussion to match reality. The question is NOT whether "fate" or "free will" operates in a person's life. The question is how MUCH of a person's life is "fate" (events are pre-determined) vs. "free will" (events are chosen).
Traditionalists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated and only very FEW things have to do with "free will". The DESTINATION is a constant, but the JOURNEY can vary. The astrologer's job is to simply point out the DESTINATION and leave it up to people to decide which JOURNEY they take to get there.
Modernists tend to say that a person's life is MOSTLY fated UNLESS THEY BECOME AWARE of themselves and their tendencies. Then the person can ADJUST themselves so their life better aligns with who they are inwardly. In this case, with the help of an astrologer or leaning astrology on their own, the JOURNEY is a constant, but how the person USES the journey can change the person's DESTINATION. Modern astrologers believe you are fated to have the chart you have, but if you are AWARE of that chart you can USE it to get to a place that best fits who YOU are.
Some modern astrologers get caught up in terminology and insist on calling modern astrology "psychological" as a way to distinguish it from traditional astrology (which emphasizes fate over free will). But this distinction can confuse people since the point is NOT about the "psychology" (which is a separate field) but about the CHOICE people make on what to DO with their chart. For this reason, the phrase "choice-centered astrology" has become more common to replace the confusing "psychological" astrology term.
However, since Modernists take the OPPOSITE approach to astrology than Traditionalists do there is a LOT of fighting between the two about how little or how much fate affects a person vs. how much or how little free will affects a person. The attraction of Traditional astrology is it gives certainty, since the goal is to predict the destination. The challenge of modern astrology is it gives UNcertainty since the destination depends on where the person decides to go and what they do to get there.
This suggests that fate is like inertia: do nothing to change your life and your destination is fated. The more KNOWLEDGE you have of your situation (through astrology or some other means) the more ability you have to use free will to affect the OUTCOME of your life.
Traditional astrology was most popular at a time when people's lives WERE fated because no one could do anything to change the outcome of their life: kings would stay kings and peasants would stay peasants. Kings were born into power and didn't want to give it to anyone not in their family and peasants were too busy trying to stay alive to be concerned with learning things. Later, when knowledge became easier to come by, astrology began to change its purpose, moving from telling people about their unchanging, fated life to telling people about the things they MIGHT do.
For people who like certainty in their lives, this new, changeable method of astrology is disturbing. Instead of supplying ONE answer for the person, choice-centered astrology can offer MANY answers and possibilities. The astrologer in modern astrology works MUCH closer with the client, since the role of the astrologer is to help the person explore these possibilities to see which answer best works for them. This choice-centered approach also turns the control of interpreting the chart from the astrologer over to the person who is constantly involved in the process to see which possibilities "work" for them.
For those who like certainty in their life, the "fated" approach of Traditional astrology will likely be more attractive. For those who are open to possibilities and want to explore them "free will"/"choice-centered" Modern astrology will tend to be more appealing.
About the differences,
Tim
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: how much of life is fate? how much of life is free will?
outside a person's control
the course of someone's life
or the outcome of a situation for someone
or something seen as outside their control.
the inescapable EVENTUAL death of everyone.
normal dictionary definition of fate = the development of events
outside a person's control
the course of someone's life
or the outcome of a situation for someone
or something seen as outside their control.
the inescapable EVENTUAL death of everyone.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
how much choice aka "freewill" a person has
is often arguably determined by PREVIOUS CHOICES that person made
for example
a homeless person has clearly made poor choices in the past
and as a consequence
a homeless person usually has no available funds
with which to consult astrologers
even if that homeless person wanted to
and so
for that homeless person, "freewill" is questionable
regarding obtaining advice from any astrologers
BUT
a person in regular employment
MAY have sufficient funds
with which to consult multiple astrologers
if they so chose to
NEVERTHELESS
if a person in regular employment
has a family to support
then there may be insufficient available funds
with which to consult astrologers
and so
ones "freewill" to consult astrologers
seems dependent on having sufficient funds to do so
and even if
there are free online forums
few, if any working astrologers have time
to provide for free on a daily basis complete readings of multiple natal charts
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Traditional astrologers work WITH clients
supporting their client with making wiser choices in life
within the limits of "freewill"
Traditional astrology acknowledges that along the way
towards INEVITABLE EVENTUAL FATE of death
SOME events that occur
are most definitely beyond the individual control of an individual
therefore are considered "fated"
because
those events are beyond the individual control of the native
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
and so
for example
traditional astrology is frequently used for deciding on fortuitous times to act
best time to buy a new home
travel to another country
have medical treatment
and so on
wilsontc
Staff member
the ability to "act" denies that something is "fated", to Jupiter
Since you have an ability to "act" (to use "free will") on something then it is NOT "fated" to occur. So Traditional astrology ALLOWS people to use their free will to decide when or not to act. Presumably, by acting at the "right" time then the events MEANT to happen after that action is taken will unfold (then, after that action is taken, everything "fated" to occur will happen).
Modern astrology goes FURTHER down the "free will path" than Traditional astrology. Modern astrology says, for the most part, WHATEVER time you are going through you can decide on MANY different choices. An exception on taking action is when Mercury is retrograde: then it's best to wait it out before acting. But OTHERWISE you can take action ANY time PROVIDED you understand the challenges of the moment. This is useful in real life because often you have NO control over when actions occur: home deals can get delayed, travel can get delayed, doctors can postpone their surgical times, and so on. But by understanding the challenges of the moment, you are prepared to TAKE the action that life forces you to take and take it in the way that BEST works for you.
This is the benefit of "choice-centered" astrology: rather than wait for the world to decide when it's the best time for YOU to do things, YOU do things and USE the energy of the world around you to make things turn out as best as they can. Modern astrologers often talk about "energy" because the idea is NOT to wait for the CHART to tell you when to do something (i.e., when the best "fated time" is) but instead to let the person USE the chart (it's "energy") to DO things for themselves in the way that is best for them.
About the differences,
Tim
and so
for example
traditional astrology is frequently used for deciding on fortuitous times to act
best time to buy a new home
travel to another country
have medical treatment
and so on
Since you have an ability to "act" (to use "free will") on something then it is NOT "fated" to occur. So Traditional astrology ALLOWS people to use their free will to decide when or not to act. Presumably, by acting at the "right" time then the events MEANT to happen after that action is taken will unfold (then, after that action is taken, everything "fated" to occur will happen).
Modern astrology goes FURTHER down the "free will path" than Traditional astrology. Modern astrology says, for the most part, WHATEVER time you are going through you can decide on MANY different choices. An exception on taking action is when Mercury is retrograde: then it's best to wait it out before acting. But OTHERWISE you can take action ANY time PROVIDED you understand the challenges of the moment. This is useful in real life because often you have NO control over when actions occur: home deals can get delayed, travel can get delayed, doctors can postpone their surgical times, and so on. But by understanding the challenges of the moment, you are prepared to TAKE the action that life forces you to take and take it in the way that BEST works for you.
This is the benefit of "choice-centered" astrology: rather than wait for the world to decide when it's the best time for YOU to do things, YOU do things and USE the energy of the world around you to make things turn out as best as they can. Modern astrologers often talk about "energy" because the idea is NOT to wait for the CHART to tell you when to do something (i.e., when the best "fated time" is) but instead to let the person USE the chart (it's "energy") to DO things for themselves in the way that is best for them.
About the differences,
Tim
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
originally "Traditional" astrology was the sole form of astrology
astrologers originally were hired SOLELY BY ROYALTY
and had high status as "court astrologers"
"ordinary people" had no access at all to astrology
even today royals are considered "fated"
because those "born royals must remain royals all their lives"
WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT
kings and queens may ABDICATE
AND
in the past kings and queens abdicated
and may ABDICATE today if they so choose
for example EDWARD VII of England abdicated
so that he could marry divorced lover Wallis Simpson
ironically, today, UKs Prince Charles is not only divorced
but Prince Charles is also married to a divorcee
so
there have been changes in royal circles
the rules have been modified so that descendants of royalty
may choose to not use their "royal title"
however "ex-royals" still have tremendous wealth
fame and status
denied to "ordinary people"
and even if
it is possible for "a commonor" to "marry into a royal family"
a recent excellent example being American Meghan Markle
Prince Charles son Prince Harry has married divorced Meghan Markle
Meghan Markle is now a member of "a royal family"
and her son is seventh in line to the throne of the UK
BUT
only ONE person amongst all seven billion inhabitants of our planet
even had OPPORTUNITY to make the choices
for such an exceptional rise in status
that brings their child in line of succession
to the throne of the UK
FURTHERMORE
Queen Elizabeth in honour of Megan Markle's 38th birthday
is today throwing a special tea party for Meghan and her new family
at Balmoral Castle in Scotland.
Meghan, Prince Harry and baby Archie Harrison
will reportedly have their own wing in the castle.
“The Queen and Prince Philip adore the couple
and, of course, their new great-grandson Archie
and they have invited them to Balmoral for a few days”
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
to be realistic
even if they are not "royalty"
the richest 1% now owns half the world's wealth
in fact
The wealthiest 1% of the world's population
now owns more than half of the world's wealth
according to a Credit Suisse report on 14 Nov 2017
the top 20% of Americans owned 86% of the country's wealth
and the bottom 80% of the population owned 14%.
and so
the vast majority lack the financial means to pay astrologers
and so
even today astrologers hired solely by the wealthy and the famous
are earning a good living from a select list of clients
such astrologers are not available to the vast majority
Ronald Reagans wife for example consulted astrologers
in contrast
the vast majority rely on easily available astrological "cookbook astrology software"
or free online astrology forums
on which random comments are posted
by those who do not require any astrological qualifications
because modernist western astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"
and anyone may self-style as "an astrologer"
traditional astrology requires far more reading, studying and practice
as there are multiple methods
such as CIRCUMNAMBULATION OF THE BOUNDS
that require detailed knowledge in order to accurately delineate
wilsontc
Staff member
Fate is your circumstances, free will is what you do with that. That's the modern approach.
Agreeing,
Tim
wilsontc
Staff member
Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter
Jupiter,
That's exactly it. There is always Traditional astrology for those who have the money to hire an astrologer who understands all the complex Traditional rules. But for the rest of us, there is Modern astrology, a self-evident, easy to learn system that powerfully reveals the opportunities and pitfalls around us, so we can use our energies in the best possible ways. The reason that modern astrology is so prevalent it has become "entertainment" is because it is so simple and powerful. EVEN understanding JUST the sun-sign of someone puts you ahead in understanding them as opposed to someone who knows NO astrology about them. And IF someone makes a LITTLE bit of effort they can quickly be posting VERY helpful statements to total strangers based on nothing more than the astrological chart posted. In this way, modern astrology enables people to deeply help other strangers simply and powerfully.
About the simple powerfulness of it all,
Tim
Jupiter,
That's exactly it. There is always Traditional astrology for those who have the money to hire an astrologer who understands all the complex Traditional rules. But for the rest of us, there is Modern astrology, a self-evident, easy to learn system that powerfully reveals the opportunities and pitfalls around us, so we can use our energies in the best possible ways. The reason that modern astrology is so prevalent it has become "entertainment" is because it is so simple and powerful. EVEN understanding JUST the sun-sign of someone puts you ahead in understanding them as opposed to someone who knows NO astrology about them. And IF someone makes a LITTLE bit of effort they can quickly be posting VERY helpful statements to total strangers based on nothing more than the astrological chart posted. In this way, modern astrology enables people to deeply help other strangers simply and powerfully.
About the simple powerfulness of it all,
Tim
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: Modern astrology is accessible, to Jupiter
has powerful methods that bring results
and
there's no need to hire a traditional astrologer
anyone may empower themselves by learning traditional
plenty of easily accessible FREE ONLINE information https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/category/principles/beginners/
of course if you are wealthy
you may choose to hire an astrologer
HOWEVER
wealthy, famous people do not necessarily hire traditional astrologers
famous modernist astrologers are often hired by the wealthy and famous
modernist astrologers do not provide complete free chart readings
modernist astrologers provide chart readings in exchange for money
as is clear from our Advertising Board
clearly
astrologers, whether traditional or modernist, must pay their bills
the powerful and simple methods of traditional astrology
which are easily learned
with very little effort
and popular astrology seems content with that apparently
however IF someone makes not much effort
to read FREE online traditional information
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/category/principles/beginners/
then that person is able to offer
very helpful statements to total strangers
using traditional methods
an excellent example
is our HORARY board
which offers brilliant advice to total strangers
HORARY cannot function without using traditional methods
Traditional astrology tried and tested over thousands of years
has powerful methods that bring results
and
there's no need to hire a traditional astrologer
anyone may empower themselves by learning traditional
plenty of easily accessible FREE ONLINE information https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/category/principles/beginners/
of course if you are wealthy
you may choose to hire an astrologer
HOWEVER
wealthy, famous people do not necessarily hire traditional astrologers
famous modernist astrologers are often hired by the wealthy and famous
modernist astrologers do not provide complete free chart readings
modernist astrologers provide chart readings in exchange for money
as is clear from our Advertising Board
clearly
astrologers, whether traditional or modernist, must pay their bills
"modern popular" astrology is firmly based on
the powerful and simple methods of traditional astrology
which are easily learned
with very little effort
traditionally, the "sun-sign" of a person is skimming the surface
and popular astrology seems content with that apparently
however IF someone makes not much effort
to read FREE online traditional information
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
completely FREE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/category/principles/beginners/
then that person is able to offer
very helpful statements to total strangers
using traditional methods
an excellent example
is our HORARY board
which offers brilliant advice to total strangers
HORARY cannot function without using traditional methods
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Everyone "likes basic certainty in life"
such as ability to pay bills
put food on the table, for themselves or their family
using traditional methods there is not SOLELY ONE answer for the person
modernist choice-centered is based on traditional
traditional astrology explores the various possibilities with clients
you said that the client interprets the chart for themselves
if that is so then
there is no need for modernist astrologers to interpret for the client
and
in fact
any person may use traditional methods to interpret their chart for themselves
traditional astrologers involve their clients in the process
discussing various "working possibilites"
obviously in life some choices are possible