Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.
PREVIOUSLY DISCUSSED AT Https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=641571#post641571

Hm...I thought Tropical astrologers would be happy to know they can have their own version of the Aquarian Age--one that actually moves through the Tropical chart. After posting a method that makes it possible in the R&D forum, I expected responses, both positive and negative, but that hasn't been the case. Actually, I'm getting the impression that people have lost faith in the promise of the Aquarian Age altogether; I get that--it's definitely a slow train coming, and Future Vision is a rare ability. Also, after the "Mayan Calendar" prophecy, which had so much going for it, failed to materialize any discernable results, the Aquarian Age prophecy lost some credibility as a result. At this point in time, we're still immersed in the "old" Age preceding the Aquarian, whether it be the Sidereal Age of the lower Piscean fish (the Goatfish, Capricorn) supported by it's fellow Earth-sign Virgo, or the Tropical Age of Capricorn itself. Sort of like living in a cave with electric lights, and feeling as though it's the only version of Reality that can ever be.
Contentious aspects of the astrological ages :smile:

Definitive details on the astrological ages are lacking, and consequently most details available about the astrological ages are disputed. The 20th century British astrologer Charles Carter stated that
"It is probable that there is no branch of Astrology upon which more nonsense has been poured forth than the doctrine of the precession of the equinoxes." (precession of the equinoxes as the root cause of the astrological ages)
In 2000 Neil Spencer in his book True as the Stars Above expressed a similar opinion about the astrological ages. Spencer singles out the astrological ages as being "fuzzy", "speculative" and least defined area of astrological lore. Derek and Julia Parker claim that it is impossible to state the exact date for the start of any astrological age and acknowledge that many astrologers believe the Age of Aquarius has arrived while many claim the world is at the end of the Age of Pisces.
Ray Grasse states in Signs of the Times - Unlocking the Symbolic Language of World Events that "there is considerable dispute over the exact starting and ending times for the different Great Ages." Paul Wright in The Great Ages and Other Astrological Cycles believes that much of the uncertainty related to the astrological ages is because many astrologers have a poor understanding of the meaning of the astrological symbolism and "even poorer historical knowledge"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Do you see Aquarius as ruled by Uranian influence, or Saturnian, or both? Also, do you believe in astrological Ages of any sort?


I see it as both. Old and new exist together, just like how life and death exist simulatenously. We can't be excessively joyous and be blind to the decay and death. In the olden days across many cultures death was celebrated, to me that is homage to Saturn. Just because people stopped celebrating death everywhere does not make it go away. Saturn will rule humanity till humans completely conquer death and become spiritual beings. I don't even know if that is possible.

There is a lot of evidence of things belonging to a particular age and I do believe to some extent in astrological ages but it is very difficult to explain.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I see it as both. Old and new exist together, just like how life and death exist simulatenously. We can't be excessively joyous and be blind to the decay and death. In the olden days across many cultures death was celebrated, to me that is homage to Saturn. Just because people stopped celebrating death everywhere does not make it go away. Saturn will rule humanity till humans completely conquer death and become spiritual beings. I don't even know if that is possible.

There is a lot of evidence of things belonging to a particular age and I do believe to some extent in astrological ages but it is very difficult to explain.

Actually, that "become spiritual beings" concept IS what I'm expecting from the Aquarian Ages. Thanks for stating it so clearly, even if you don't agree it's what the relatively near future holds in store for us.
 
Last edited:

lostinstars

Well-known member
The problem is those who can't handle Saturn's relentless, driving influence, and become monsters in human form. They rule the world, not the wise ones.


Of course it is not easy it is a cruel treatment and people including astrologers falsely believe that Saturn is impartial and treats everyone the same. I find it to be utterly ridiculous, if Saturn treats everyone the same, everyone has to be a melancholic and a genius at something which will help humanity to further the civlisation. This was never the case and never will be. Only Saturn dominant people will have to face cruel treatment which in the later turn out to be good because these people leave legacies. We remember tyrants who built great structures exploiting the slaves throughout history as much as we remember Van Gogh.

I love the planet Saturn so very much but at times it becomes really unbearable!
 

ardentika

Well-known member
Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.





Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one. I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky. I find there is some element of truth in it as Blavatsky's works explain so many things from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.

Yes! I'm very much a fan of Jung's work. I think he really went as near as possible to the "truth". I also believe that our unconscious becomes our fate ,but it can be changed with a little awareness. All one needs is to know that certain "failures" are a physical manifestation of something happening within. This way we can observe it better rather than take it as a pure.coin. Fate.
If we take as an example someone who gets constantly rejected in love, career and friendships. There is a rejection of the self happening somewhere inside that keeps manifesting itself to sort of make its point valid. I've seen this so often. When someone believes they don't deserve something, even if that's happening unconsciously (altho it often seeps outside and it's not hard to see for an observer) they simply don't have it. Or they put themselves in a situation where they will get rejected to verify that internal belief. I wouldn't call that fate. Simply a learning curve. It becomes fate when one accepts it and doesn't questions it AND EVEN THEN, I've seen how loving the universe is, and how much it tries to give this individual the best possible way to heal this or still have a happy life as much as possible. Imagine what would happen if we worked consciously.with that energy.

Btw I find Einstein to have a beautiful mind. I think he was mostly admired for his imagination and ideas rather than possibly actual work. He was definitely a visionary.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Of course it is not easy it is a cruel treatment and people including astrologers falsely believe that Saturn is impartial and treats everyone the same. I find it to be utterly ridiculous, if Saturn treats everyone the same, everyone has to be a melancholic and a genius at something which will help humanity to further the civlisation. This was never the case and never will be. Only Saturn dominant people will have to face cruel treatment which in the later turn out to be good because these people leave legacies. We remember tyrants who built great structures exploiting the slaves throughout history as much as we remember Van Gogh.

I love the planet Saturn so very much but at times it becomes really unbearable!

Without knowing the particulars, in theory, how one responds to Saturnian influence would depend mainly on the Natal-chart configuration, in addition to familial and cultural considerations. Some become wise, some become despondent, and some become monsters.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes! I'm very much a fan of Jung's work. I think he really went as near as possible to the "truth". I also believe that our unconscious becomes our fate ,but it can be changed with a little awareness. All one needs is to know that certain "failures" are a physical manifestation of something happening within. This way we can observe it better rather than take it as a pure.coin. Fate.
If we take as an example someone who gets constantly rejected in love, career and friendships. There is a rejection of the self happening somewhere inside that keeps manifesting itself to sort of make its point valid. I've seen this so often. When someone believes they don't deserve something, even if that's happening unconsciously (altho it often seeps outside and it's not hard to see for an observer) they simply don't have it. Or they put themselves in a situation where they will get rejected to verify that internal belief. I wouldn't call that fate. Simply a learning curve. It becomes fate when one accepts it and doesn't questions it AND EVEN THEN, I've seen how loving the universe is, and how much it tries to give this individual the best possible way to heal this or still have a happy life as much as possible. Imagine what would happen if we worked consciously.with that energy.

Btw I find Einstein to have a beautiful mind. I think he was mostly admired for his imagination and ideas rather than possibly actual work. He was definitely a visionary.

It's a shame that Jung has become so devalued in modern-day psychology.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Without knowing the particulars, in theory, how one responds to Saturnian influence would depend mainly on the Natal-chart configuration, in addition to familial and cultural considerations. Some become wise, some become despondent, and some become monsters.


Yes but we can't predict who will turn to be a monstrous monster. Monsters are not thrown into life or the world they are born from the life itself. Life gives birth to monsters, except we don't know the mechanics of how monsters are created. Life gives birth to new life, life feeds on life, life protects life in endless cycles.

I watched once a documentary on lions and a young cub was attacked by hyenas in the night and they teared the cub's back completely and ripped it open and its mother left even though the cub was trying to catch up to her by crawling on the front two legs. She would eventually mate with a lion to give birth to new life. Would you call the cub's mother a monster for leaving it to die eventually?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes but we can't predict who will turn to be a monstrous monster. Monsters are not thrown into life or the world they are born from the life itself. Life gives birth to monsters, except we don't know the mechanics of how monsters are created. Life gives birth to new life, life feeds on life, life protects life in endless cycles.

I watched once a documentary on lions and a young cub was attacked by hyenas in the night and they teared the cub's back completely and ripped it open and its mother left even though the cub was trying to catch up to her by crawling on the front two legs. She would eventually mate with a lion to give birth to new life. Would you call the cub's mother a monster for leaving it to die eventually?
on the contrary :smile:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=986867#post986867
Apotelesmatica

8. Monsters
The subject of teratology is not foreign to the present inquiry, for when the luminaries are turned away from the Hour-Marker with the maleficent planets separating the angles, they make humble and unlucky nativities and when the predominators of the preceding syzygy are disjunct from the preceding New or Full Moon itself, they are afflicted by teratogens. If Phaethon and Phosphoros aspect the luminaries, they make them honoured, prophets with Stilbon, but when alone, it makes them toothless, deaf and dumb, though otherwise clever and cunning, and when they are disjunct, the nativities are entirely irrational. In such cases, one must conjecture the intensity of affliction with the proximate fixed stars, whether beneficent or maleficent.


12. Bodily Injuries and Diseases
To gain a general comprehension, it is necessary to look at the two angles with the horizon, that is the Hour-Marker and the Setting, especially the latter, for the moist exhalations about the earth most influence bodies. We must also observe what aspect the maleficent planets bear to them, for if they, one or both of them are stationed against the angular degrees, with conjunction, tetragon or diameter, the subjects born will suffer bodily injuries and disease, especially when either one or both of the luminaries as well chance to be angular in the manner described for in that case not only one of the maleficent planets is post-ascending the luminaries but even if it is pre-ascending them while angular, they have power to produce injuries or diseases of such kind as the place of the horizon and ecliptic may indicate, likewise what is indicated by the natures of the afflicting and afflicted planets, and moreover by those that bear some aspect to them. For the most part, the eastern maleficent planets produce injuries, and the western maleficent planets cause disease that bears upon the patient either continuously or in sudden attacks. Bodily injuries and diseases are also indicated by afflicted planets occupying the pre-ascensions of the aforementioned angles, or by those that are post-ascending, in which case, the general time is discovered from their risings.

Phainon is lord of the right ear, the spleen, the bladder, the phlegm, and the bones, Phaethon is lord of touch, the lungs, arteries, and semen, Pyroeis of the left ear, kidneys, veins, and genitals, the Sun of the sight, the brain, heart, sinews and all the right-hand parts, Phosphoros of smell, the liver, and the flesh, Stilbon of speech and thought, the tongue, the bile, and the buttocks, and the Moon of taste and drinking, the stomach, belly, womb, and all the left-hand parts.

Hermes Trismegistus and the philosopher observed various configurations related to this topic.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3C*.html#12

13. Quality of the Mind
We are in full agreement with the investigation of the mind from Moon and Stilbon as done with the detailed methods described by the philosopher.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#13




14. Diseases of the Mind
We are mostly in agreement in investigation of diseases of the mind, indicated from the positions of the Moon and Stilbon relative to each other, and to the Hour-Marker, for if they turned away, while overcome, enclosed, or in opposition with maleficent planets in injurious aspects, they give various diseases which affect the character of the mind, the interpretation of which, is calculated from the previously described qualities of the planets.

In most cases those are epileptic in whose nativities the Moon and Stilbon are, as we said before, unrelated to each other or the Hour-Marker, while Phainon by day or Pyroeis by night is angular and in the aspect previously described. And they are violently insane when, again under the same conditions, Phainon by night and Pyroeis by day rules the position. And they are most afflicted if maleficent planets are in this place and control the New or Full Moon, Phainon with new moon, Pyroeis with full moon and especially with dual places. We are in agreement with the remaining investigations done by the philosopher and the ancients.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#13

Sources
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Schmidt, R. Hephaistio of Thebes Apotelesmatics Book II. Project Hindsight.

 

jac

Well-known member
I have Saturn just about as strong as it can be, and what I aspire to observe is all about the relevance of timing, structure and discipline. Most who read this will make the assumption this is bereft of all things cultural, but my primary occupation is cultural.

That said, I grow impatient with indulgences, platitudes and proclamations.
Most of us are on here searching for knowledge gleaned by those who have made the commitment, not daydreams of would-be deities.

The attainment of a solid, sound framework, to then be able to perceive the aspects, lights, and movements to delineate seems to me, a hard won gift. It bewilders me that the process of synthesis is so frequently blown past in deference to attempts to saddle any one factor with a load of properties.

The economy is getting tighter, and I'm likely not alone in my remorse for having to had to give up so many wonderful books for cruel necessity. This is one of the things that make posted quotes such a luxury. So THANK YOU paragraph posters!

To address another subject, a powerful Saturn does not necessarily predispose the native to the study and focus on one and only one subject. Of course it happens, but discipline, of itself, doesn't have to mandate hobbling limitation. One application could be the integration of other disciplines made to create a greater base of knowledge, for example.

Contemporaneous extinction events shine a beam of sarcasm on regularly posted aspirations towards humanity becoming "spiritual beings". We have always had varying degrees and understandings of exactly what that means, but the epitome for most would be after having made our passage to the other side.

One glorious manifestation of Free Will (in staying on point) immensely enjoyed by me, is the ability to utilize that feature put in place thanks to the infinite wisdom of the administrator of the forum; the venerable ignore option.
 

jac

Well-known member
Somebody pulled a big wooly over our peeps...


verb
past tense: impelled; past participle: impelled

drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something.
"financial difficulties impelled him to desperate measures"
synonyms: force, compel, constrain, oblige, necessitate, require, demand, make, urge, exhort, press, apply pressure, pressure, pressurize, drive, push, spur, prod, goad, incite, prompt, persuade, inspire
"her sense of duty impelled her to keep up appearances"
drive forward; propel.
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"
synonyms: propel, drive, drive forwards, move forwards, move, actuate, set in motion, get going, get moving
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"



Musta' been an implosion we felt...
 

david starling

Well-known member
Somebody pulled a big wooly over our peeps...


verb
past tense: impelled; past participle: impelled

drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something.
"financial difficulties impelled him to desperate measures"
synonyms: force, compel, constrain, oblige, necessitate, require, demand, make, urge, exhort, press, apply pressure, pressure, pressurize, drive, push, spur, prod, goad, incite, prompt, persuade, inspire
"her sense of duty impelled her to keep up appearances"
drive forward; propel.
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"
synonyms: propel, drive, drive forwards, move forwards, move, actuate, set in motion, get going, get moving
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"



Musta' been an implosion we felt...

Need a new descriptive word. How about "Influence" in place of " impel" since impel is a synonym for compel? Not as catchy, but it's on point.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Synonyms are not completely overlapping words; you can tell when someone’s used a thesaurus in haste as some music sounds just off.

Impel is nice, it suggests motivation and drive that would have to be countered by a countervailing force of some kind (internal or external). Influence is similar, though it leaves out the urgent flavors of instinct or yearning or considerable pressure.

"Living while under the Influence.". :lol:
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
To address another subject, a powerful Saturn does not necessarily predispose the native to the study and focus on one and only one subject. Of course it happens, but discipline, of itself, doesn't have to mandate hobbling limitation. One application could be the integration of other disciplines made to create a greater base of knowledge, for example

It means you need to focus on one thing at a time to build mastery of a subject which can further lead you into other things but dabbling many things simultaneously may give you the impression that you are a master of so many things but Saturn would say don't kid yourself you have not spent much time here and again unless it is necessary there is no need for anyone to become master at anything.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
Living under the influence !!! I love that hahahah .

Thought I had figured out Saturn but I haven't. I haven't seen anyone really figure it out yet. It will end up being a mysterious planet haha. Maybe cos mine is in Pisces and is a shapeshifter haha.
 

jac

Well-known member
It means you need to focus on one thing at a time to build mastery of a subject which can further lead you into other things but dabbling many things simultaneously may give you the impression that you are a master of so many things but Saturn would say don't kid yourself you have not spent much time here and again unless it is necessary there is no need for anyone to become master at anything.

Quite the assumption to denigrate earnest study to "dabbling".
Apparently you can't conceive of dedication to more than one field.

But you feel you are qualified to speak for Saturn, freely tossing about judgements to strangers.

"There is no need for anyone to become master at anything"?
The reality of a renaissance man or woman is foreign to you.

Go ahead. Call out Saturn. He answers.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Living under the influence !!! I love that hahahah .

Thought I had figured out Saturn but I haven't. I haven't seen anyone really figure it out yet. It will end up being a mysterious planet haha. Maybe cos mine is in Pisces and is a shapeshifter haha.

Saturn and Mars--Greater and Lesser Femalefics!
 
Top