Bullies and Victims

Interesting topic.

You did not 'provide' many bullies, but as the thing can be so much to do with social inclusion/exclusion of others - who is 'in,' who is 'out,' a misuse of the challenges of a Sun-Saturn in Aquarius square Chiron seems apt there. I do think that school is one of the first places where interractions with peers - so groups - gets to be important - fertile areas for power isses to get played out there, I should think.

Personally, I do not much care for any philsophy that justifies 'might is right' whtehter or not at school, or later on at work, on the internet, or in arenas larger than that.

A rising Saturn, which did appear in one of your 'victim' charts is something else I might have expected. I hope I am not commenting out of turn on what might be confidential isues there.

The current generation of kids have the Pluto in Scorpio, as well as the Neptune/Uranus conjunction. Maybe tere is already more sensitivity and awarenes of the ways understanding certain kinds of emotions, weaknesses can be exploited anyway, plus more sophisticated opportunities (such as the internet) to be able to do this.

Hello Nexus, I have a few more charts however I am hoping to inspire others to look through their own files for such confirmations. I do have plenty more where that came from though. I am still proving these things for myself too and in some cases have the benefit of knowing my sebjects well and over several years.

You are correct of course to identify the Sun Saturn Chiron configuration. There is a Pluto topping off a Tsquare too. I also see the Mercury in Pisces conjunct Black Moon to represent that blind side to acknowledging these behaviours in self and the unbridled manner in which behaviours emerge for the person. Usually after some time, the Bully gets to appreciate behaviours and thinking patterns however here the process seems endless. The same configuration you mention also describes some critical styles of treatment recieved and thus the internalised and externalised shaming process and need for power.

kingsley

Children with the Sun in the twelfth house are bullied at school. There are few exceptions to this even though they themselves may never speak about it because they are sad and ashamed.

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I think this is kind of oversimplified; I was a real bully victim in my highschool period and my sun is in the 7th house. (However, every time I skim a characterization of a 12 house sun I relate to it way more than to my 7th house sun.)

I think bullies are always cowards seeking assurance and attention because essentially they lack confidence.

Mars will always be weak and afflicted in the chart of a bully (although not necessarily so in the chart of the victim).

Mars Saturn afflictions are common in the charts of bullies. One bully I knew had Mars conjunct Saturn with Mercury in between, in Aquarius square Neptune in Scorpio.

On my list of famous bullies I have Ivan the Terrible, who was unbelievably cruel. He had Sun conjunct Mars in Virgo both square Saturn in Gemini.

Bobby Brown, the abusive husband of Whitney Houston, has Mars exact quincunx Saturn, forming part of an exact yod with Luna.

Marquis de Sade, whose name is literally the source for the word "sadism", had Mars square Saturn from Aries to Cancer.

Hi Wayne, whichever way one looks at the situation both bully and victim have self esteem issues. One would hope that they could both develop assertiveness skills and get through difficult social relating circumstances.

Perhaps the bully has more rebellious kinds of energy and in time can re direct their energy into structured persuits instead of blaming others for their low self esteem.

kingsley

'Maybe it just symbolises in both charts the use of power, not owning your power and giving your power away.'

Well, I don't know. The trouble with that is that it then allows the perpetrator of abuse an easy excuse - after all, the person I have just robbed/exploited/hurt must have 'asked' for it.

Apart from the case of chilfren who force smaller, lore vulnerable children o hand over the dinner money when he teacher isn't looking, I wonder how much that gives grown-up billies in the workplace to keep up their behaviour. Or the Mafioso thug to keep the threat of death to keep their victims in tow? To name one or two possible examples.

All I am saying again, is that as I suggested in an earleir post, it would disturb me to see philosophies that justify 'might is right' within various imbalances of power the being given too much of an opportunity to flourish without being challenged.

That is not to say thereare probably not children and adults who get the rough end of the stick because of being unable mobilise their Mars energy to a satisfactory degree, having strong Saturn/Neptune/12h House placements/signs/aspects that make standing up for yourself an area where development needs to taskeplace.

In the case of children, what about those with autism? Did they get to be bullied because they 'wanted' it?

I suggest that the "potentials" in the chart are are just that and until some aspects of early nurturing environment take place there could be alternative potentials in the chart that become prioritised in personality.

In a way we are mostly conceptualising children-young teenagers ability to develop through negativistic stages of development. Some adults I agree continue to default into that stage of development for psychological survival and social interactions (ie fixated).

The introjected parent of role model figures who tend to blame and be critical are transfered through relationship. The chart of a bully would show more about this process than the bullying itself. Likewise the Victim takes a helpless, dependant reaction formation like adaption; could also take on mothers guilt or introject victim like role models into personality too.

On must understand the potential drivers and injunctions in the potential transferences of nurture. Someone who has been smothered will tend to be more angry but if their anger is disavowed or adapted in relation to parent figure (emotional control aspects) then repressed feelings will leave the person a victim to building upon that outcome leading to dependant and passive behaviours. They get more out of being the victim (sad) than being a bully.

The please me driver does it for boys and be perfect for girls in a general sense. Bikies tend to have "Mum" tattoos and would kill anyone speaking badly about her. The adaptions in the life of a youngster bikie may have led him to becoming a bully type. Its the only way he gets to express aspects of himself in relation to the pleasing and 'having' to love mum no matter what.

http://kenoath.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/planetary-drivers/

kingsley

I have just had an experience on another forum, where i am having restrictions placed on how much i can post. I am starting to feel that the "person" on this forum, doing this to me, (a moderator), is being a bully. What is starting this? Plain old jealousy, is my guess.....

Any ideas as how to see this type of bully in a chart?

the question should be, is how do i deal with my mars!....

I am being calm.....(on the outside!)i dont know what this idiots problem with me is, but i am learning heaps and starting to show it........dont know....but i am not biting.

First of all, I woul like to apologise if anyone felt that they were being personally attacked in my last thread. My observations were meant to be general ones. My strong feelings probably made themselves felt more than they should have done, however. There was someone who did once warn me that I may well underestimate how my 6th-House Mars can come across sometimes.....

I met a lot of people at one time who were firm believers in the 'we create our own reality' school. I was made to feel that I had wilfully and wantonly 'wanted' to be ill once when I went to an acupuncurist once for a minor health problem, that I was 'blamed' for it. I was unemployed at the time too and was also made to feel that this must be due to personal shortcomings too, especially from my very right-wing family, never mind some of the New Agers I came at at some of the peace camps I went to.

More recently, I have seen that this kind of thinking is becoming fashionable again, due to one or two very popular new publications. That actually happened on a forum recently where one member recounted an incident where she was attacked out of the blue by someone who had been stalking her through her front door. Someone piped up, asking if she had a 'victim mentality.'

Now in the case of someone who stays for years with a man who is abusive and incidentally exposing their child to posible too, we might certainly wish to ask what is is in the make-up of that woman that keeps her there, when there are no indications that such a oartner will change his abusive ways.

The woman who was attacked in the situation I just mentioned was me and there was no time for any 'victim mentality' to develop, as there was hardly any time to think or react at all - and certainly by getting through the door and into the lift in time to shake him off.

He stuck his hands around my neck and threatened to kill me, but l did in fact live to tell the tale. (The only transit I could pin this one on was a sextile from Pluto to natal Moon. And it was an especially charged full moon too, as it picked up transitting opposition of Mars and Uranus.) Later on, however, a student of mine started sounding off about women who get attacked are probably 'asking for it,' perhaps she did not realise how angry she made me - well perhaps she did, because soon after that she stopped coming to me. I still wonder if on some level she had realised what she was doing and this was her passive/aggresive way of ending our lessons.

I raised the autism thing because I wanted to draw attention to the fact that some children may be a whole lot less equipped to deal with social interractions at school than others and that this is now said to be due to brain wiring or neurology and not due to 'psychological' factors such as low self esteem - or at least, not to begin with. Again, my question was whether or not it is always fair to blame the child for being a 'victim' when maybe we should be looking at what is is about the way that schools are run that bring out so much cruelty in other children. (the same question was raised by te writer of Tom Brown's Schooldays, of course.)

However, I have come across other writers who are sceptical of the tendency to create ever more new labels for any kind of learning difficulty that could make it less easy for a child to deal effectively with he swings and arrows of school life - if all school is, is preparation for the big, bad world of work. And 'work' require individuals who are better equipped to work in multinational companies, very often, with all that entails. Maybe that could always exclude many individuals who might not have that kind of mindset to begin with. Little boxes.

It is strange for me that this forum and thread have emrged when they have. I was in a forum last year where the moderator did nothing whenever skirmishes took place, then I got blamed for starting a coup to get rid of her. That was the Saturn-Neptune opposition to natal Mars - and Chiron. Many an old wound reopened.

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point again that my points were general observations, rather than meant for any one person individually. I do think they need to be raised though, although it is far from any intention of mine to start causing any irrevocable ill feelings. But these issues came up on another forum here, on Liz Greene. I said it mayself - it can be hard to tell the cop from the mafioso don from the chart alone, as te configurations can be so similar. But should that mean that we shouls 'blame' the child for any unfortuante events that may take place in their life?

As far as taking away all of the hard aspects from a chart:
I think that any caring protective mother would want to take away any sort of bad things for a child. However, I think that having squares in a chart can help to solidify a stronger personality so that the person can cope with life better. If you have a few squares, then you have a person who has some struggles in life, these struggles help to strenghthen us.
Never would I want my prior experiences taken from me, and they were very negative, because I am a strong woman who can say that the experiences have allowed me to conquer experiences that maybe someone else would have crumbled under.
I am going out on a limb here to say that I think that everyone gets bullied at one point in our lives, even a bully. Not that it is right, but in the grand scheme of life it almost has to happen on a basic evolutional level; it is innate. Like the saying "the strong survive" I dont take this as the strong live per say anymore, but I take this as the strong get more out of life. I almost think that a bully makes us stronger, able to cope with a society that can be crude, and extremely demanding on each individual.
A bully is weak, gathering power from another individual by using the most demeaning ways possible.

Well, I have a Mars square Uranus too. I think I would quite like to hear what any concentration camp survivors might have to say about this gentleman's comments on the Holocaust.

I personally liked what Mike Harding had to say on all this in Hymns to the Ancient Gods.' He suggests that there is litlte most people can do about what he calls being 'thrown' into circumstances not necessarily of our own choosing. How these people then deal with hese like circumstances is anoher matter.

He also makes the point that some of these situations into which people are 'thrown' are economic ones over which someone living on an inner-city estate or in a developing country struck by famine might have very little say over with, to begin with.

It could also be that those people who do survive a war, a disaster, are simply lucky enough to enjoy greater, geniune emotional support form their families or friends than those who don't. Therefore, it does seem to me to be rather unconsidered judgement to suppose that those who do 'recover' less easily are necessarily just being 'victim' types.

I have met people, conversely, who feel that there is a rather parasitical side to the growth of counselling industries, whenever the counsellors converge on a place of disaster to help those affected.

Again, in Tom Brown's Schooldays - here again, the writer felt that contrary to the Victorian social darwinists of his time, a lot of the bullying he witnessed, presumably as a schoolboy himself, then later on as a headmaster, did very little to 'stengthen character:' more often, it prevented many people - unnecessarily - from devloping their potentials in life, as he saw it. There are alway many theorists now who would say that violence done to children in any form by adults, as in beatings, floggings, probably helps create a more violent, warlike and imperialist society. The school story I have looked at here was published before WW1, where millions of young men were sent to be slaughtered in the trenches. I believe the generals here did not believe in such namby-pamby notions as post-traumatic syndrome there either - if these kids got shellshocked on duty, they were shot and indeed, shot for not wanting to join up.

I am, however, glad to see that the paper quoted here recognises that **** geniunely does just happen to some groups of people and that we can makes distinctions between differing levels of 'victim' categories. I have certainly had occasion recently to hear what happen what can happen when a co-alhcoholic will protect a partner against the consequences of their poor judgement in certain things.

Where is Uranus in you chart out of interest.

Leo. In the 8th or 9th depending on which house system you choose.

People with Mars in the twelfth, are bullied by those close to them, particularly sexual partners. Hindu astrologers give Mars in the twelfth house kujadosha status for this reason and consider it very seriously when looking at marriage charts. I am asking Sudhiranad to tell us a bit more about this.

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I'm nineteen so my expirience isn't endless, but I must say no abusive partners here even though both my mars and pluto are possitioned very strongly. I just have rage black outs, control issues and some intimacy issues as well... but oh welll i try my best.

However I have been bullied extensivly through out elementary school. Other kids weren't receptive of my introvert way of thinking. And to be honest I had trouble coming to terms with my sexuality. [i'm a straight feminist ]. also some other kinds of abuses present in my life...

I blame my cappy moon for being too proud and not being able to admit being hurt.

once that extremly painfull phase in my life ended i took a 360 turn around. Through highschool I isolated myself from others in whom I could recognise same insecurities I had. I was silent through them being bullied because franqly i didnt have a problem with it.. it's just somethin u have to go through at some point. or at least it seems that way to me.

through my uni studies [i'm psych major] there is one bully pattern that is the most present. that is thinking different from the crowd. extrovert children bullied in introvert enviroment and other way around.

I've always blaimed my chiron for the abuse i received in elementary school seeing as how I read that 3rd house is associated with it.

in my chart there is a T square. that thing has caused me to act somewhat self destructive

I just saw this thread ... interesting topic!!!

I was bullied when I was in high school. It was very difficult and eventually led to me changing schools. Now as an adult I feel kinda sorry for those kids. I mean, after alll, what else can you say about people that enjoy harressing others to the point where that other person actually considers commiting suicide??? Nevertheless, the scars those kids left on my psyche run deep. I might never fully get over the cruel ways they hurt me. And until today I have a hard time letting people get close to me because I fear that I might get hurt like that again.

Astrologically speaking, I have a few aspects in my chart that I think might contribute to being a bullying victim:

• Capricorn on the cusp of the 11th house
• Saturn in Scorpio in the 8th square Moon in Leo in the 5th/6th
• Pluto in Scorpio in the 7th square Moon in Leo in the 5th/6th
• Chiron opposition Sun
• Pisces rising

Girl_from_Jupiter said:

I just saw this thread ... interesting topic!!!

I was bullied when I was in high school. It was very difficult and eventually led to me changing schools. Now as an adult I feel kinda sorry for those kids. I mean, after alll, what else can you say about people that enjoy harressing others to the point where that other person actually considers commiting suicide??? Nevertheless, the scars those kids left on my psyche run deep. I might never fully get over the cruel ways they hurt me. And until today I have a hard time letting people get close to me because I fear that I might get hurt like that again.

Astrologically speaking, I have a few aspects in my chart that I think might contribute to being a bullying victim:

• Capricorn on the cusp of the 11th house
• Saturn in Scorpio in the 8th square Moon in Leo in the 5th/6th
• Pluto in Scorpio in the 7th square Moon in Leo in the 5th/6th
• Chiron opposition Sun
• Pisces rising

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So very true. I know how you feel. I have Pisces rising and 11th house Capricorn. I was such a bully target. But the thing is I snapped in middle school and got into catfights, lol. how can you explain that in astrology? Taurus Sun? Mars Aquarius?

People with Mars in the twelfth, are bullied by those close to them, particularly sexual partners. Hindu astrologers give Mars in the twelfth house kujadosha status for this reason and consider it very seriously when looking at marriage charts. I am asking Sudhiranad to tell us a bit more about this.

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I have Mars in the 12th. I was bullied by those close to me, ...but by sexual partners? I never was... yet..?