Weak Signs

craft94

Well-known member
It's possible. I mean Saturn is the planet of fear and ossification so a person who doesn't want to introspect (due to fear of what they find?) or an inability to learn from their experiences and grow (solidified and stunted) sounds like the work of a negative Saturn indeed. If you're not growing you're dead or deteriorating which I'd peg on Saturn traditionally and Pluto modernly.

I don't encounter that view of weakness often

Isn't Jupiter the planet of growth (and a more experienced kind of learning as opposed to a more logical, academic Mercurial one)? Saturn is the planet of limitation which is the opposite of growth. A weak Jupiter is what I'd expect.
 
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craft94

Well-known member
,

It's about Charts, and my contention (look Kitchy, I said "contention" in place of "opinion"!) that we all have to meet the requirements of this Age of Capricorn under Saturnian Rulership. So anything in any Chart that gets in the way of fulfilling those requirements is what Saturn "detects" as a "weakness". For me,the major issues are about being on time and making money. And enjoying kicking-back way too much! So I try to tell Saturn, "Hey, I got all that Pisces in the 1st House. Those aren't weaknesses, they're character-traits!" But I still have to toe the line. And, to the extent I can't or won't, Saturn tries to convince me I'm "weak". It's all about Attitude and the war of
nerves. You seem tough enough to thumb your nose at Saturn's opinion of you, just
like I am. But I never take what Saturn tells me lightly!

No. I don't take what Saturn says lightly. That's not what I'm saying. Saturn has taught me a lot, actually. But Saturn transits always seem to bring on negative experiences for me, educational experiences, yes, but I wouldn't say it's my biggest ally.

Saturn in my mind represents authority figures (think bosses as opposed to wise old teachers), rules (as opposed to morals which would be more of a Jupiterian thing), tradition, inhibitions, etc: all of which I am not a fan of.

Saturn expects me to behave a certain way, and Saturn transits teach me to work harder and pay more attention to my reputation (not the same as how I treat people or whether or not I'm falling in line with my own beliefs...what you do vs. what people see = 2 very different things). Saturn transits teach me how to behave if I want to succeed, which is helpful, but these aren't necessarily ways in which I'd like.

The ability to learn from mistakes, and find the good in bad experiences, seems more Jupiterian to me......but I'm not discounting any of what you're saying.

I do have a weak Saturn. Saturn, planet of boundaries, is retrograde in the boundaryless sign of Pisces.
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Isn't Jupiter the planet of growth (and a more experienced kind of learning as opposed to a more logical, academic Mercurial one)?
A weak Jupiter is what I'd expect.

Yes, but I was coming from the context of Saturn - the planet of limitation and inhibition - effectively immobilizing/imprisoning a person so that they "never change". Another neat parallel between Saturn and the 12th house.

I see what your saying about Jupiter, and while Jupiter was associated with growth and fecundity (along with the moon, which is why Cancer is such a fertile sign) it was also a planet that denoted temperance as well.

Negative Jupiter tied to the personality, according to Lilly:

When Jupiter is unfortunate, then he wastes his patrimony,[59] suffers every one to cozen him, is hypocritically religious, tenacious, and stiff in maintaining false tenets in religion; he is ignorant, careless, nothing delightful in the love of his friends; of a gross, dull capacity, schismatical,[60] abasing [61] himself in all companies, crouching and stooping where no necessity is.

Shows a picture of one who is hypocritical, wasteful and annoying. Like the guy who does the popular kid's bidding but will never be accepted.

Negative Saturn tied to the personality, same author:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling,[60] sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining.

Both of them sound "weak" in different ways but which one would you think is more in line with GG's concept of weakness? I can see them both being applicable to be honest.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
It's possible. I mean Saturn is the planet of fear and ossification so a person who doesn't want to introspect (due to fear of what they find?) or an inability to learn from their experiences and grow (solidified and stunted) sounds like the work of a negative Saturn indeed. If you're not growing you're dead or deteriorating which I'd peg on Saturn traditionally and Pluto modernly.

I don't encounter that view of weakness often

I'm not sure what most people's definition of weakness is supposed to be.

I'm not sure about Jupiter in this case. I haven't done much reading into Jupiter tbh. As soon as I heard "religion" and "fecundity" associated with it, two things that I generally do not even touch with a ten foot pole, I ran away screaming. :pouty:

My Saturn is in Aquarius and my Jupiter is in Virgo, if that helps.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I'm not sure what most people's definition of weakness is supposed to be.

I'm not sure about Jupiter in this case. I haven't done much reading into Jupiter tbh. As soon as I heard "religion" and "fecundity" associated with it, two things that I generally do not even touch with a ten foot pole, I ran away screaming. :pouty:

My Saturn is in Aquarius and my Jupiter is in Virgo, if that helps.

The usual - soft, fold under pressure, cry-baby yada yada yada.

lol - fecundity doesn't have to only mean making lotsa babies, but it can describe people who are generally prolific. People who have "fertile" minds and "produce" "many" works in their fields of activity.

With your strong Saturn it makes sense that you would have a more acute nose for a sub-optimal Saturn expression.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
The usual - soft, fold under pressure, cry-baby yada yada yada.

lol - fecundity doesn't have to only mean making lotsa babies, but it can describe people who are generally prolific. People who have "fertile" minds and "produce" "many" works in their fields of activity.

With your strong Saturn it makes sense that you would have a more acute nose for a sub-optimal Saturn expression.

Oh, those definitions. I mean I guess folding under pressure or being a cry-baby might be "weak," but it doesn't have the same weight to it as being unable to acknowledge mistakes and failings and therefore change. Folding under pressure or being a cry-baby aren't really moral failings, I guess. And I would expect anyone to crack in those more "traditionally" weak ways given the correct amount and application of pressure. There's a reason why torture doesn't work, etc. :sideways:
 

craft94

Well-known member
I'm not sure what most people's definition of weakness is supposed to be.

I'm not sure about Jupiter in this case. I haven't done much reading into Jupiter tbh. As soon as I heard "religion" and "fecundity" associated with it, two things that I generally do not even touch with a ten foot pole, I ran away screaming. :pouty:

My Saturn is in Aquarius and my Jupiter is in Virgo, if that helps.

Jupiter isn't necessarily a religious planet. I guess it depends on how you define religion, or what part of religion we're talking about here. The way I see it, Jupiter represents the "bigger" issues (or anything big) and this can include religion, but I see it as more philosopical to be honest. It isn't a mystical planet per se. That's more Neptune's realm. While Saturn is the law, Jupiter is the meaning behind the law.

Based on what you say about your chart though, it kind of makes sense why you'd prefer Saturn. Saturn rules Aquarius in traditional astrology, meaning it's well placed, and your Jupiter's in detriment. Jupiter is about the bigger picture, and Virgo is more focused on tiny details. On the other hand, Virgo is generally more realistic so it makes sense why you wouldn't be a fan of religion. Not a bad thing, really. You can pick at the tiny details of why it doesn't make sense. Virgos realism goes well with Saturn.

In my own chart, Jupiter is the stronger one.

Then again, Saturn is exalted in Libra and when I think about it, there are a lot of Saturnian elements to my personality so maybe it is my "friend" after all. Just not with transits.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I was amazed, after I joined the Community, to discover my preconceived notion of what was "standard" Astrology was in such great dispute. Since I've never considered myself a standard Astrologer, I was (and am) intrigued, not upset. But there are two things I still subscribe to that are apparently very unpopular with even Modern, Tropical Astrologers that I had mistakenly believed were taken for granted: Numbering the Signs Tropically 1 through 12, from the 1st Sign of Spring (Northern Hemisphere) to the last Sign of Winter. It appears the Houses now have a monopoly on the numbers, even though most Mods do associate each House with the Sign of the same number as just described. For me, the numbers are intrinsic to the Signs, along with the almost universally agreed upon (Tropically) Elements and Modes, along with the assortment of Sign images (Mermaid not ordinarily included!). So synchronistic--Age of the 10th Sign ushers in base-10, decimal Mathematics. The other thing is the use of a key-word for each Sign. No one seems to know where they're from, or when they came into use. I still use those as well, but it seems they've lost some respect. Now, all that having been said, what do you think of this formula, just as a theory: When Saturn is in a Sign, it raises serious doubts about that Sign's key-word usefulness. Sat. in Leo, I don't trust my acts of Will, for example. In my case, best to follow the Flow and work with it. but not fight it.
 

david starling

Well-known member
As regards my previous post, with Saturn in Leo, I have great will-power, but nothing good comes to me from exerting it--very constraining, as one might expect from Saturn.:sideways: Can you find any correlation in regard to Saturn's Sign-position in your own Chart? Might work for Transits as well; since Saturn entered Sag., I've been doubting my Visionary abilities.
Aries--I am. Libra--I balance.
Taurus--I have. Scorpio--I desire.
Gemini--I think. Sagittarius--I see.
Mer--I feel. Capricorn--I use.
Leo--I will. Aquarius--I know.
Virgo--I analyze. Pisces--I believe.

Not weakness, but a strength you have that works against your own best interests, and might even cause you to harm others.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Then again, Saturn is exalted in Libra and when I think about it, there are a lot of Saturnian elements to my personality so maybe it is my "friend" after all. Just not with transits.[/QUOTE]

Craft, testing my theory; with Saturn in Pisces, do you have trouble trusting and relying on your beliefs, even though you have a strong ability to Believe? In theory, you should also have a strong ability to influence the beliefs of others, but are constrained by intuition or knowledge that it would be a mistake to do that. Any thoughts?
Saturn's position in a Sign is indicative of a Power that is "for emergency use only". It's there for you when Dire Necessity requires that you wield it. (According to this theory.)
And when that time occurs, you'll know how to use it to avert the impending disaster. Like an Ace in the hole. In that sense, Saturn could be considered "a friend in need".
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
Jupiter isn't necessarily a religious planet. I guess it depends on how you define religion, or what part of religion we're talking about here. The way I see it, Jupiter represents the "bigger" issues (or anything big) and this can include religion, but I see it as more philosopical to be honest. It isn't a mystical planet per se. That's more Neptune's realm. While Saturn is the law, Jupiter is the meaning behind the law.

Based on what you say about your chart though, it kind of makes sense why you'd prefer Saturn. Saturn rules Aquarius in traditional astrology, meaning it's well placed, and your Jupiter's in detriment. Jupiter is about the bigger picture, and Virgo is more focused on tiny details. On the other hand, Virgo is generally more realistic so it makes sense why you wouldn't be a fan of religion. Not a bad thing, really. You can pick at the tiny details of why it doesn't make sense. Virgos realism goes well with Saturn.

In my own chart, Jupiter is the stronger one.

Then again, Saturn is exalted in Libra and when I think about it, there are a lot of Saturnian elements to my personality so maybe it is my "friend" after all. Just not with transits.

Philosophy and religion aren't so great. People are killed in the name of these things all the time when beliefs become zealotry, so I don't understand all the praises of Jupiter on the other time.

Saturn is "rules" of the jungle in Capricorn, but in Aquarius he becomes social, and in Venus becomes law. There is plenty of philosophy behind etiquette, human rights, law... Saturn is about yielding to something bigger than yourself. Not God, no, but actual things that you're stuck on Earth with.
 

craft94

Well-known member
Philosophy and religion aren't so great. People are killed in the name of these things all the time when beliefs become zealotry, so I don't understand all the praises of Jupiter on the other time.

Saturn is "rules" of the jungle in Capricorn, but in Aquarius he becomes social, and in Venus becomes law. There is plenty of philosophy behind etiquette, human rights, law... Saturn is about yielding to something bigger than yourself. Not God, no, but actual things that you're stuck on Earth with.
Zealotry, to me, is the marriage of Pluto and Jupiter. Not with individuals - I have a (somewhat wide) Pluto-Jupiter conjunction in my own chart and I am not like this (though it has been said that I'm "intense" and "too much to handle") - but in terms of archetypes. The intensity/extremism of Pluto mixed with the religious and philosophical aspects of Jupiter. This is just my opinion. I get where you're coming from.

I'm guessing by "Venus", you mean Libra? Because Venus and Libra are not the same thing. I didn't think Venus as a planet had anything to do with law (maybe I'm wrong). When I hear Venus-Saturn, I either think "serious relationship with lots of responsibility" (as I've seen in synastry/composite charts) or "inability to show affection" (as I've seen with hard aspects in natal charts). Those aren't the only two interpretations but you get the picture. I think more relationship-orientated things.

Example: i know someone with Venus in Libra conjunct NN in the 6th house opposing Saturn in the 12th. They're very anti-romance, doesn't think they need love etc. Maybe it's a coping mechanism because they don't feel loved? I don't knowbut I'm guessing it has a lot to do with Saturn.
 
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craft94

Well-known member
Then again, Saturn is exalted in Libra and when I think about it, there are a lot of Saturnian elements to my personality so maybe it is my "friend" after all. Just not with transits.

Craft, testing my theory; with Saturn in Pisces, do you have trouble trusting and relying on your beliefs, even though you have a strong ability to Believe? In theory, you should also have a strong ability to influence the beliefs of others, but are constrained by intuition or knowledge that it would be a mistake to do that. Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Actually, yes. Not so much with religious beliefs or anything if that's what you're referring to, but I have trouble trusting my intuition and "going with the flow" like a Pisces would. I know my intuition is THERE. Time and time again, experience has told me I SHOULD have trusted it when I didn't, but I overthink everything. I also have a seriously hard time trusting others. I find it hard to believe what others tell me. It seems like whenever I get the feeling that someones deceiving me, and they tell me "no no no I'm not like the others you can trust me" and I end up giving in if only just a little bit, I'm proven right. At this point, I feel like if you have to keep insisting that you're not a certain type of person, it usually means you are...that has a lot todo with intuition again...I have trouble trusting others but I have an even harder time trusting myself (as you can see with my mental health threads and how I constantly need feedback from other people). It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.


What you said about transits - do you think it has more to do with houses and aspects than signs? Because I'm getting the feeling it does, at least for individuals. Like this 6th house transit has been causing me to doubt my health (especially mental).
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Craft, testing my theory; with Saturn in Pisces, do you have trouble trusting and relying on your beliefs, even though you have a strong ability to Believe? In theory, you should also have a strong ability to influence the beliefs of others, but are constrained by intuition or knowledge that it would be a mistake to do that. Any thoughts?


I know a person who has Saturn in Pisces and he practically subsists on his beliefs. Very devout Christian and wants to be a Principal/Preacher and he gets antsy when you poke holes in his tail tales (which I enjoy doing). Depending on the time of day he was born he could have 3 possible Sun/Moon combinations so I don't worry myself too much on that part of his chart.

What remains the same is his Saturn Pisces and (I think more importantly) his Sagittarius Jupiter.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Venus is usually thought of as the Evening Star version, love and romance. Going back to the culmination of the Tropical Age of Libra, when city-state civilization arose in Ancient Sumeria, along with written records (C.3300-3100B.C.), the Ruling planet we call Venus was known as Inanna, Queen of Heaven; and Ishtar was another name for her. She had the Evening Star characteristics of the Roman goddess Venus; but as the Morning Star, she punished evil-doers, and was feared and respected. That's the version now known as the Goddess of Justice, holding the Libran scales and the sword, showing she's capable of meting out punishment. In tarot, the sword signifies Libra's element, Air. If Day-Venus weighs you in the Balance and finds you unworthy of her mercy, watch out!! :crying:
([IMO] Lucifer is a combination of Morning Star Venus and Saturn.)
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I know a person who has Saturn in Pisces and he practically subsists on his beliefs. Very devout Christian and wants to be a Principal/Preacher and he gets antsy when you poke holes in his tail tales (which I enjoy doing). Depending on the time of day he was born he could have 3 possible Sun/Moon combinations so I don't worry myself too much on that part of his chart.

What remains the same is his Saturn Pisces and (I think more importantly) his Sagittarius Jupiter.

Unsure of his beliefs, he needs to hear those shouts of "Amen" from those who affirm them. He's also using the power of Saturn in Pisces to influence the beliefs of others, which is for "emergency use only" in the face of impending doom. Any idea why he might feel it's Crunch-time?:w00t:
With Jup. in Sag., I really doubt he's a charlatan out for fame, fortune, and adulation (which I suspect is sometimes the case with "devout" preachers).
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Unsure of his beliefs, he needs to hear those shouts of "Amen" from those who affirm them. He's also using the power of Saturn in Pisces to influence the beliefs of others, which is for "emergency use only" in the face of impending doom. Any idea why he might feel it's Crunch-time?:w00t:
With Jup. in Sag., I really doubt he's a charlatan out for fame and fortune.

He's genuine alright and his beliefs are infectuous. He might not be a charlatan but he really doesn't seem to have an interest in truth in the sense of unbiased naked reality but his "truth" is more rooted in the connection he feels to the divine (his one and only christian god).

As such,he is more of a rhetorician where everything he says is for its emotional impact or persuasion. Its fun to watch how effective his techniques can be on others and the flat note effect his shtick has on me.

At least with him, there is no sense of doubt in his beliefs. He truly seems to believe his own ********.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Zealotry, to me, is the marriage of Pluto and Jupiter. Not with individuals - I have a (somewhat wide) Pluto-Jupiter conjunction in my own chart and I am not like this (though it has been said that I'm "intense" and "too much to handle") - but in terms of archetypes. The intensity/extremism of Pluto mixed with the religious and philosophical aspects of Jupiter. This is just my opinion. I get where you're coming from.

I'm guessing by "Venus", you mean Libra?

Yes I absolutely meant Libra, NOT Venus. I'm not really coherent before about 10 AM, sorry.
 
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